Catherine II "The Great" (1729-1796)

[RubyPrincess168]

I read a biography of her within the last year and was really impressed. It's like she dragged Russia out of the dark ages. She did so much for them!

 

[lucien]

I have many books on Cath. II "the Great", and, at the moment I don't recall in which was voiced a rumor that Cath.'s natural father was the future Prussian King Fred. II "the Great", who was said to have bedded Cath. mother. And, though the years of reading, it seem to me the rumors might have been based on several interesting facts. It was Fred. II who pushed her marriage to Peter III and that he demanded she visit him before heading off to Russia.

The birth date of Cath. II was said to have been changed and because she was a precocious young girl Cath. was able to make people think she was older than she really was.

Now, don't jump all over me. As far as I am aware, it is just a rumor.

AGRBear

Frederik not so much demanded Catherine to come and see him before she was off to Russia,it was usance for german
bred noble brides to say farewell to their Monarch,as he was to give permission as well for a marriage ins ausland,
upon leaving the country to get married abroad.
So,you can't derive anything from that visit.

I think the best books,and the person with absolutely the best and most intimite knowledge on Catherine the Great
is Isabel de Mandariaga,author.

She,nor any historical,or histerical if you wish,paper/document referres to Fred fathering her.He didn't father around
that much,his interests "lay" more with the same sex thing,not a bad choice either.And it keeps one from false accusations.

 

[Russophile]

Did you read it from the library ( The By Influence and Desire book is that the one you said you'll have to buy)? I've never even heard of it but it sure sounds interesting. I looked it up on Amazon US and it's very cheap, one cent and four dollars shipping used. I will be reading it soon either from there or interlibrary loan, (if they have it). Thanks for mentioning this great book I'd never heard of.

Yes, the interlibray loan system in Portland, Oregon is quite good. There are lots of interesting lovely things. When I used to frequent Klamath Falls, I found Minnie's bio. there.

 

[Marengo]

Frederik not so much demanded Catherine to come and see him before she was off to Russia,it was usance for german
bred noble brides to say farewell to their Monarch,as he was to give permission as well for a marriage ins ausland,
upon leaving the country to get married abroad.
So,you can't derive anything from that visit.

I think the best books,and the person with absolutely the best and most intimite knowledge on Catherine the Great
is Isabel de Mandariaga,author.

She,nor any historical,or histerical if you wish,paper/document referres to Fred fathering her.He didn't father around
that much,his interests "lay" more with the same sex thing,not a bad choice either.And it keeps one from false accusations.

I had no idea about this, though I have the book (unread, but still). Where oh where did things turn sour . Later in life he would talk about 'Die Hure' (the wh#re) when referring to Catherine. A dubious honor she had to share with Maria Theresia of Austria btw. And to make it even more intruiging, Frederik had a portrait of both ladies in his bedroom. I suppose that technically Anhalt was independant and Catherine's father was 'her' monarch. Though already in these days many smaller protestant duchies and principalities were under Prussian custody, so to speak.

He had the same fathering tendencies over his niece Wilhelima who married Dutch stadholder Willem V btw, always urging her to be careful.

 

[Grace Angel]

I read a biography of her within the last year and was really impressed. It's like she dragged Russia out of the dark ages. She did so much for them!

I think it was Peter the Great who dragged Russia out of the dark ages.

 

[AGRBear]

Frederick II "The Great", from what I understand, believed that he'd be able to control the future Catherine II "the Great" by promising her support from the time her name was first mentioned as possible bride for Peter. He already, had the right people surrounding the future Peter III, who was devoted to the Kaiser and everything Prussian and Frederick II thought wooing young Catherine was just icing on his political cake, so to speak. Frederick II went out of his way to turn Elisabeth II's eyes toward young Catharina's portrait that was sent.... When Catherine took control of Russia, Frederick II wasn't distrubed because he felt he'd be able to run all over her and he'd take Russia from the top on down.... BUT, Catherine II hadn't risked her life just to be Frederick II's puppet. Frederick II under estimated Catherine just like so many others had.

As for Frederick II's attraction to men and women, well, it appears he had his moments with both. From either a man or a women, it has been reported that he suffered from a sexually transmitted disease and the doctoring wasn't all that great...
It seems Frederick II and Peter III had the same unpleasant experiences. Anyway, unlike Catherine II, who left a trail of lovers, Frederick II was more discreet.

I'm not sure if Frederick II called Catherine II a "wh_re" and other unpleasant descriptive words because of her sexual actitivies or because she was in the political beds with the British, Poles and the French.



AGRBear

 

[Grace Angel]

Well, she was famous for her lovers, so he was likely referencing that. Not that he was such a saint himself, as you note. Catharine was too shrewd to be taken by Frederick like her husband. Peter III was very devoted to Germany anyway ( his father was German) and Frderick didn't even need to have people around Peter III to turn Peter's thoughts to hero worship of him. By all accounts, Peter III hero worshiped Frederick a long, long, time. Peter III would have made a great ruler of Holstein, his father's realm, but he never identified with Russia. Perhaps had his mother lived longer, he would have. I think Peter III's rather idiotic worship of Frederick put Catharine further off Frederick. Maybe she would have a slightly better attitude towards Frederick had not her husband who she never loved demonstrated such naive hero worship of him.

 

[AGRBear]

THE LOVES OF CATHERINE THE GREAT by Nikolaev and Parry p. 253 is the list considered to be her top 12 lovers:

Sergei Vasilievich Saltykov
Count Stanislas Augustus Poniatowki
Prince Gregory Gregorievich Orlov
Alexander Semyonovich Vasilchikov
Prince Gregory Alexandrovich Potemkin-Tavrichesky
Count Peter Basilievich Zavadorsky
Semyon Gavrilovich Zorich
Ivan Nikolaievich Rimsky-Korsakov
Alexander Dmitrievich Lanskoy
Alexander Petrovich Yermolov
Count Alexander Matveievich Dmitriyev-Mamonov
Prince Platon Alexanrovich Zubov



AGRBear

 

[Marengo]

I'm not sure if Frederick II called Catherine II a "wh_re" and other unpleasant descriptive words because of her sexual actitivies or because she was in the political beds with the British, Poles and the French.

AGRBear

I think the latter, he called Empress Maria Theresia the same way, and nobody could accuse her of having lovers.

 

[Al_bina]

Pikul implied that Count Stanislas Poniatowski was Catherine's II only true love. They had deep feelings for each other. However, Catherine II and Count Poniatowski realised impossibility of their long-term relationships. He never married anyone, even for the sake of appearances.

 

[Russophile]

Pikul implied that Count Stanislas Poniatowski was Catherine's II only true love. They had deep feelings for each other. However, Catherine II and Count Poniatowski realised impossibility of their long-term relationships. He never married anyone, even for the sake of appearances.

Al, do you think it might have been a different love? Like Cleopatra who had a true, but young love with Ceaser, and a much more mature, but realistic, warts and all, love with Antony. I'm speaking of Poinatowski and Potemkin?

 

[Al_bina]

That might be true. Prince Potemkin was rumoured to be morgantically married to Catherine II. The marriage supposedly took place either in the second half of 1774 (autumn) or in January, 1775. The interesting detail is that all the favourites after Potemkin were obliged to treat him with the utmost respect following Catherine's II example.
Generally speaking, he was a rational enegertic man. He was known for his progressive views on my issues. According to Montefiore, Potemkin was more than just tolerant towards Jews: he studied Jewish culture, enjoyed discussions with rabbis, and even patronized them. At the same, he was a man of extremes. Charles-Joseph de Ligne noted that Potemkin was grim and prone to mood changes. He could be philosopher and skilful administrator, and then behave like a child.

 

[Grace Angel]

I always thought Poniatowski was her early love, Prince Orlov her middle love and Prince Potemkin her last love. She was also very attached to a young lover that died ( can't recall the name) who came after Potemkin, somewhere in line. Had he lived, that relationship may have lasted longer. I recall reading an account of her meeting Poniatowski in later years and how they didn't have much to say to each other, or something. Reading that account was sad, but I'm not sure what book that was in.

 

[Al_bina]

Prince Orlov was more of a dashing knight for Catherine II. You know the one, who saves and protects Princess and her castle from enemies.
It is understandable that love to Count Poniatowski faded away. When compared to Peter III, he was a nice change for young lonely Grand Duchess Catherine Alekseyevna. Rise to power and other men in her life made Catherine II realise that her feelings to Count Poniatowski were just sweet, but not resilient. Furthermore, Catherine II needed strong men, who would help her to retain the power she siezed through coup d'etat.

 

[Grace Angel]

But she did have a hand in making him king of Poland I believe. She must have believed he was strong enough to rule that. He wasn't the type of man she needed in Russia though. It would have been interesting if their daughter ( although Peter III was the girl's official father) had lived.

 

[Royal Fan]

Anyone think she contracted a legal Marriage with any other man after Peter III?

 

[Grace Angel]

I doubt it. I think it was just rumors of a marriage with Potemkin.

 

[Russophile]

I doubt it. I think it was just rumors of a marriage with Potemkin.

I heard that rumor as well. And it would hardly be legal.

 

[AGRBear]

I heard that rumor as well. And it would hardly be legal.

Nothing has been presented to prove that Cath. II ever married Potemkin.

On the other had, there are letters to Potemkin where Cath. II wrote "my dear husband", "my master" even "dear spouse". It is my opinion that she was stating words that caused Potemkin to feel less dominated and in doing so he was a willing partner who had his male ego in tact.

For a time they did live like husband and wife. He was a strong willed person and he was well liked. He seemed to understand politics and was very popular with everyone, especialy the generals. At some point, a warning bell went off in Cath. II's head. Potemkin was gaining too much popularity and rumors were being spread that they had married.

Interestingly, at this same time, Cath. II was being affected with her entry into menopause. [p. 202 CATHERINE THE GREAT LIFE AND LEGEND by John T. Alexander.]

I believe it was her fear of being dominated that caused her to never give herself fully to any male, even Potemkin.

Potemkin wasn't a fool and step back when her realized his time was drawing to a close. He even found Cath. II several handsome young lovers...

Potemkin was never to resume his place in her bed.

Although she had worried about being dominated, when he drew away she felt a lost...

Menopause doesn't turn off a woman's desire for sex. In fact, Cath. II was finding she had a new desire for sex.

Potemkin recommended Colonel Peter Zavadovskii...

Cath. II and Potemkin remained close friends even though the fire of romance had flickered out. She kept his place in the palace... She never dismissed him from her life.

If you ever get a chance, read about Potemkin. His military achievements were extraordinary as well as his ability to build castles out of sand.

AGRBear

 

[Grace Angel]

How involved does everyone think Catharine was in Peter III's death? Do you think she gave an order that caused his death directly, or do you think Gregory Orlov's brother simply knew that she expected the death of Peter III and so he killed him?

 

[AGRBear]

How involved does everyone think Catharine was in Peter III's death? Do you think she gave an order that caused his death directly, or do you think Gregory Orlov's brother simply knew that she expected the death of Peter III and so he killed him?

Good question.

There is a long list of why Cath.'s future desire to be the Empress of Russia was best to be a widow, not that of a wife, who was holding the key to the living uspured Peter III's prison and Regent for Paul, who might send her off to some nunnery when he became Tsar.

Since I still have CATHERINE THE GREAT, LIFE AND LEGEND by John T. Alexander on my desk, I'll quote what he wrote p. 15:

>>For more than a century, only hearsay contradicted the official version of Peter's death. In 1881, however, was published the letter of Aleksei Orlov to Catherine that informed her of the violent deed, took full responsibility for it, and begged her forgiveness. To this day many circumstances of death remain murky... This much is certain: Peter was murdered -- probably strangled or smothered in much the same fashion that his son, Emperor Paul, would be for decades later. the act occurred with the direct complicity of Alexei Orlov and Fedor Bariatinskii, as Orlov's letter additted, and in the presence of several other persons -- perhaps as many as fourteen. Evidently drink inflamed the scene; some later suspected poison. In fact, Catherine demanded a postmortem, which revealed nothing.<<

Alexander repeats one of the versions of the murder then adds:
>>Although the news stunned the Empress momentarily...., she recovered quickly and moved swiftly to cope with the consequences<<.





AGRBear

 

[Grace Angel]

I don't think Catharine ordered his death, but she knew it was in her best interest and Alexei Orlov etc knew it had to be done, and that it would benefit her. Did people know at the time that she had a demanded postmortem or not?

 

[AGRBear]

I don't think Catharine ordered his death, but she knew it was in her best interest and Alexei Orlov etc knew it had to be done, and that it would benefit her. Did people know at the time that she had a demanded postmortem or not?

I don't know the answer.

Bear's Opinion: I would suspect that she made sure people were told that Peter III had not been poisoned, because that was, after all, the purpose of the postmortem.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

According to Joan Haslip in her book CATHERINE THE GREAT, Cath. II wrote the following to Poniatowki [p. 125]:

>>Catherine asserted that Peter abdicated of his own free will ... It was after his arival at Peterhof, which was completely surrounded by her troops, "...that I deemed it wiser to place him under guard, in order to protect him from the insults of my overzealous soldiery." A specially chosen escort of officers and soldiers under the command of Alexis Orlov escorted him that evening to his country estate of Ropsha...., which he had always liked.<<

p. 126
>>Everything was done to make his confinement as pleasant as possible. She writes, "He was given everything except his liberty: his wishes were immediately complied with. HIs French valet, his violin, his favorite litte Negro...and his pet dog, Mopsy, were sent to him"<<

>>Cahterine sounds so sweet and reasonalbe in her letter to Poniatowski. There is no mention of the humiliatations...<<

She goes on to tell us that it was claimed that Peter collapsed in a dead faint when he heard the name of his final desination.

p. 130
>>By leaving her husband to the mercy of the Orlovs, Catherine became an accessory to crime.<<

p. 31
>>On July 6..she received the news she was waiting to hear. The ex-emperor had died in circumstances so mysterious that even the most servile of courtiers could not believe the jailors [stet] to be innocent.<<

>>If Catherine was shocked, it was probably at herself, as to how quickly she had assimiliated [stet] the standards of the country she was going to rule.<<

AGRBear

 

[Al_bina]

Pikul in "Favourit: Chronicles of Catherine's II reign" also noted that Alexei Orlov killed Peter III. However, it is not clear how exactly he did. Some witnesses said Orlov strangled him, whereas others argued that he stabbed Peter III with a fork. I am not sure what kind of support Peter III had among courtier and people, but Catherine II did not feel secure with Peter III being locked. The Orlov brothers saw an opportunity to improve their fortunes by helping Catherien to seize the power.

 

[Russophile]

I'm sure she knew, she just put little bees in the correct people's ears to suggest her wishes. Cleopatra had done the same in her time and she was just as apt a ruler as Catherine.

 

[Grace Angel]

Yes, I agree, Catharine wasn't shocked. She knew it had to be done, and especially in Russia you had to be ruthless to get power. She had never cared for Peter as a person anyway, and their marriage was very unhappy. He didn't rule Russia very well and I think Catharine really looked down on him.

 

[AGRBear]

Just before Peter III died Alexi Orlov wrote on Tuesday, wrote Katharine Anthony in her book CATHERINE THE GREAT P. 177:
>>Little Mother...: Health we all wish you for countless years. We and the whole command are well as this letter leaves us, but our monster has grown very sick and has had an unexpected attack of colic. And I am afraid that in the end he might die tonight and fear still more again that he mightlive. The first fear I have because he chatters pure nonsense, and that does not amuse us; and the seonc fear, because he is really dangerous for us all because he often speaks as if he had his former position.<<

On Saturday evening (p. 178-9) Alexei Orlov wrote to Cath II his regrets:

>>...I myself do not know how the misfortune happened. we are lost if you have not mercy upon us. Little Mother, he lives no longer in this world. But no one had thought that, and how should we have had the thought to lift hand against the Czar: But empress, the misfortune has happened. It came to a quarrel at table between him and Prince Feodor << [Bariatinksy]>>: we could not separate them, and already he was no more. We cannot ourselves remember what we have done, but we are all to the last man guilty and deserve death.<< He continues with his guilt which hold no farther information as to the details of Peter III's death.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Who was this Prince Feodor Bariatinksy?

Valerian Obolensky: Russians In Exile - The History of a Diaspora - Part 1 - Chapter 3 - The Russian Nobility

>>The hierarchy of the nobility
The top of the hierarchy is occupied by the male descendants of Rurik, and within that group the hierarchy is determined by the seniority of the lineage. Books can be written about each aristocratic lineage, but I restrict to a short description of some lineages that are mentioned in this book.

The lineage of Bariatinsky descends from Michael Vsevolodovich (1195-1246), Grand Duke of Chernigov and monarch of Kiev, descendant of Rurik in the 12th degree. Michael was canonized for his valour in the battle against the Mongols, and burned alive by the hordes of the regional Mongol Khan Batu, because he didn't want to give up Christianity. In the 17th century the Bariatinsky's were mainly military men and diplomats. In the 18th century Prince Ivan Bariatinsky was Governor of Russia Minor and he had two sons: Feodor and Ivan. Prince Feodor was one of the murderers of Tsar Peter III (see: Orlov), and Prince Ivan married the Princess of Holstein-Beck, a cousin of Peter III. He became Ambassador of Russia at the court of Louis XVI. Prince Ivan Sergeevich Bariatinsky (1740-1811) was plenipotentiary Minister of Russia in France, from 1773 to 1783. Field Marshall Prince Alexander Ivanovich Bariatinsky (1814-1879) was Viceroy of the Caucasus, and freed the Caucasus from enemy montagnards. In March 1872 Tsar Alexander II appointed him chairman of a commission which had to improve the efficiency of the War Ministry. When Nicholas II, who still was Tsarevich in those days, in October 1890 left for a voyage around the world, he was accompanied by his brother George and the Princes Bariatinsky and Obolensky. Each one of the Princes shot a tiger in India, which annoyed Nicholas because he didn't manage to shoot anything at all.<<



AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Background of the Orlovs
http://valobol.blogspot.com/2006/03/russians-in-exile-history-_1142516417021314
:>>The lineage of Orlov closes the hierarchic ranks of the Russian nobility. Peter the Great took pleasure in attending the executions personally, and he even assisted the executioners. At one of these occasions a young man by the name of Ivan was asked to put down his head on the chopping-block. On the way Ivan picked up the chopped-off head of one of his comrades, and said to Peter the Great, `If you're keen on heads, why don't you take this one? It's much more handsome than mine.' Peter was baffled with so much guts and made Ivan a soldier in his army. Ivan soon proved to be a real brave bantam, and was made an officer, as a result of which he was raised to the peerage. Ivan's only son Grigori, Governor of Novgorod, became five sons: Ivan, Grigori, Alexis, Feodor and Vladimir. Grigori Grigorievich (1734- 1783), a blue eyed giant, was the lover of Catharina the Great and gave her a son, Alexis, who was born in April 1762 and would become the progenitor of the aristocratic lineage of Bobrinsky. Together with his brothers, all of them officers, Grigori decided to kill Tsar Peter III, so Catharina II could seize to power. On July 18, 1762 Tsar Peter III was strangled by Alexis Orlov (1737-1807), in presence of his brothers and Feodor Bariatinsky. After Catharina was through with Grigori Orlov, it was the turn of another giant: Grigori Potemkin. He wasn't a very attractive man after Alexis Orlov had cut out one of his eyes during a duel. Subsequently Alexis became Catharina's lover. Alexis Grigorievich Orlov became Admiral of the Russian fleet and defeated the Turks at Chesme. In 1775 he withdrew to his estate. He left one daughter: Anna Orlov-Chesmensky.
Vladimir Orlov, who died in 1832, only had one son: the later Senator Grigori, who died in 1826. Ivan Orlov has no legitimate descendants.

Feodor Orlov had many illegitimate children, and Catharina II allowed all of them to use the name of Orlov. One of them, General Alexis Orlov, was a highly valued and internationally well known statesman. Feodor Grigorievich Orlov is considered the progenitor of all the later aristocratic Orlovs.<<