Birth of Lilibet “Lili” Diana Mountbatten-Windsor: June 4, 2021

[Heavs]

I think you’re probably correct all around.

And if HM herself/the Palace is fed up, I do find that understandable.

Yes, I can see if either not being informed at all or being told that they were using Lilibet not Elizabeth as a fact was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's very personal.

Especially as it would have been Prince Philip's 100th birthday tomorrow and that's sure to be a very poignant day at best.

The fact that no sources are correcting anything suggests that the Queen wanted this out there and that however she found out, she wasn't supportive.

All this drama over a baby's name at what should be a happy time. I really wonder what the end game is in threatening to sue the BBC and any other media that reported on it. Control? Forcing a statement from HM? Because any publicity is good publicity?

In months to come most of this would be forgotten. Yes there will always be those that point out how ..ironic it is to name the baby Lilibet after trashing everything royal in the last few months or talking about privacy and using a private nickname but well that's what comes of using this name. But most would move on and just print whatever cute stories about Archie and Lili you fed to your sources.

 

[_Heather_]

That's a shame. I know they've fallen out, but could someone not have managed a text or an e-mail?

I honestly have no idea how true it is or not but I've read several times that Meghan asked her mother to text her father and let him know when Archie was born so that he didn't hear about it at the same time as the rest of the world and apparently she instructed her mother not to tell her whether he replied or, if so, what he said. I'm not really sure what changed for Lili's birth and why she didn't follow the same path.

 

[Erin9]

That's a shame. I know they've fallen out, but could someone not have managed a text or an e-mail?

That is sad. Not that I think Mr.Markle comes across as father of the year or anything. But- it is sad that apparently things are that bad.

I’m still trying to understand why, according to Meghan, a note was left for them by staff that Philip was in the hospital. Could no one communicate with them directly? I don’t get it. Honestly. Maybe I’m missing something here.

 

[Heavs]

Camilla Tominey in the Telegraph making many of the same points we've been discussing here. That that name isn't the exact issue it's part of a wider frustration. As well as also pointing out that the BBC statement and the Sussex Global Press secretary statement don't actually contradict each other very much:

Courtiers also appear to be increasingly concerned that the self-exiled royal couple keep attempting to draw a distinction between the Queen and the institution she represents.

Harry and Meghan have been noticeably careful to heap praise on the sovereign, as she prepares for her Platinum Jubilee next year, while voicing criticism of "The Firm" in general.

Yet as the head of the Royal family, not to mention the Commonwealth, insiders have long argued the Queen and the monarchy are one and the same thing.

Royal aides were similarly frustrated when Harry "blamed the staff" for blocking meetings with his grandmother and father in the run up to their departure, pointing out that "that is what courtiers are paid to do".

As one put it at the time: "It’s all very well blaming the staff when you haven’t got what you want. They are working for the boss, first and foremost."

Equally problematic are the couple’s frequent public references to "conversations" with the Queen, which would ordinarily remain private.

From confiding in James Corden that "granny" bought Archie, their two-year-old son, a waffle maker for Christmas, to the revelation they "spoke to the Queen to express their sympathies" in the wake of the Duke of Edinburgh’s death in April, there is a sense of cynicism around the couple repeatedly name-checking the monarch amid briefings that calls with other members of the Royal family have been "unproductive".

This perhaps explains why sources close to the Prince of Wales have been so keen to brief this week that he is in "regular contact" with his son - in the absence of such information emanating from across the pond.

Curiously, the Sussexes tend to shy away from discussing private exchanges - unless they involve HM. It is therefore understandable that the palace may be minded to intervene when, to coin a phrase, "recollections may differ".

https://archive.ph/i2IOw

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

Just read Meghan's earlier statement about her father's actions that she "genuinely can't imagine doing anything to intentionally cause pain" (to your child). I guess she doesn't consider their actions as potentially hurting their children but I am afraid that Archie and Lili might beg to differ in the future. And apparently, intentionally causing pain to your father, brother, grandparents and other family members is fine?!

I agree with you, Somebody!

I would love for someone in the UK tp post the link to the article entitled “Tone Deaf” in the Times. I think it is quite a thoughtful article but I’m unable to get the link.

 

[Heavs]

I agree with you, Somebody!

I would love for someone in the UK tp post the link to the article entitled “Tone Deaf” in the Times. I think it is quite a thoughtful article but I’m unable to get the link.

Here you are:

The Times view on Harry and Meghan’s baby name: Tone-Deaf

The Sussexes have taken a very personal nickname and added it to their brand

https://archive.ph/uK8AF

 

[Lucy Scot]

I am glad that Harry has threatened to sue the BBC for their story. Enough with the anonymous Palace sources, which no one knows if they are telling the truth or not. The BBC should name their Palace source, or the Palace should issue an official statement. I am glad that Harry is fighting back. They had their way with his mother and he is no longer going to allow it to continue with his family.

 

[Hallo girl]

I am glad that Harry has threatened to sue the BBC for their story. Enough with the anonymous Palace sources, which no one knows if they are telling the truth or not. The BBC should name their Palace source, or the Palace should issue an official statement. I am glad that Harry is fighting back. They had their way with his mother and he is no longer going to allow it to continue with his family.

I do not disagree with your point, but what about the unnamed friends that spoke out ,then Meghan went to court to protect, it has to be a two way street.

yes the press had their faults with Diana but she also used the press just like they are using Omid and Gayle

 

[duchessrachel]

QUOTE: For some reason I could not get this to "quote" from a previous post so I just cut and pasted it.

I had loads of time to kill while I was sitting on a conference call that I had to listen in to but not participate in and after much social media browsing and checking out the Twitter feeds of a few longtime royal reporters, they've made it quite clear in the last hour or so that the palace still has not issued anything at all disagreeing with the "Senior Palace Source" and that, in fact, they are being led to believe that HM wants it out there and known that she was displeased with being told and not asked. There are some carefully worded suggestions beginning to be bandied about that perhaps this was the final straw for the Palace and they will begin to subtley or not so subtley fight back. As a personal note, I'm going to bet that the BBC is 100% willing to stand by their story and likely has something to back it up since they appear to still have it up along with all of the other news media in the UK and there's loads of tweets from royal reporters that, as of this posting at least, have been left up. It will certainly be interesting to watch the next few days/weeks.


I wish that the Royal Family would just take their gloves off and the queen ask Parliament to remove their titles and remove Harry from the line of succession. H & M have shown that they will accuse the Queen of the worst stuff, so I don't see how they can say much worse than they already have if she makes this move. Honestly, those two have no boundaries they will not cross. I can't help but think of what Meghan's brother, Thomas, wrote in his open letter to Harry before the wedding. He said that Meghan would make a "joke of you [Harry] and the royal family heritage". At the time I laughed it off because I was so excited for Harry and Meghan. Well, now I can see that he was right. She has definitely made a joke of Harry and as far as the Royal family heritage, they have caused some people to believe lies about them which make these people ridicule their heritage. I am FURIOUS!!! And I am an American. I cannot begin to imagine how the supporters of the Monarchy in the UK must feel.

 

[duchessrachel]

Yes, I can see if either not being informed at all or being told that they were using Lilibet not Elizabeth as a fact was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's very personal.

Especially as it would have been Prince Philip's 100th birthday tomorrow and that's sure to be a very poignant day at best.

The fact that no sources are correcting anything suggests that the Queen wanted this out there and that however she found out, she wasn't supportive.

All this drama over a baby's name at what should be a happy time. I really wonder what the end game is in threatening to sue the BBC and any other media that reported on it. Control? Forcing a statement from HM? Because any publicity is good publicity?

In months to come most of this would be forgotten. Yes there will always be those that point out how ..ironic it is to name the baby Lilibet after trashing everything royal in the last few months or talking about privacy and using a private nickname but well that's what comes of using this name. But most would move on and just print whatever cute stories about Archie and Lili you fed to your sources.

I think that is exactly it. It is about control. I had a horrid thought that if this goes to court, would the Queen have to testify? Somehow I think she would not, but that would be awful if she did. I really hate what H & M are doing to her.

 

[Prinsara]

I don't think she can be made to testify, duchessrachel. Just like she can't be prosecuted. She's extralegal — she is the British judicial system.

 

[duchessrachel]

I don't think she can be made to testify, duchessrachel. Just like she can't be prosecuted. She's extralegal — she is the British judicial system.

I felt like that might be the case so thank you for verifying that.

 

[Alison H]

I wish that the Royal Family would just take their gloves off and the queen ask Parliament to remove their titles and remove Harry from the line of succession. H & M have shown that they will accuse the Queen of the worst stuff, so I don't see how they can say much worse than they already have if she makes this move.

I doubt that too many people would argue, but parliamentary procedure is long-winded, and there's a lot to get through, because of the exigencies of the pandemic. We're often hear complaints that a Bill over something or other, which some people consider important, hasn't even been debated due to lack of time, and there'd be a lot of moaning if time were to be spent on Harry and Meghan.


I feel so sad for the Queen. Maybe she's looking at that lovely photo of her and Prince Philip and Doria with Archie when he was a few days old, and wondering how on earth things got from there to here in the space of two years. I think that's what upsets people the most, that Harry and Meghan don't seem to care how distressing their behaviour must be for her.

 

[Lucy Scot]

I had loads of time to kill while I was sitting on a conference call that I had to listen in to but not participate in and after much social media browsing and checking out the Twitter feeds of a few longtime royal reporters, they've made it quite clear in the last hour or so that the palace still has not issued anything at all disagreeing with the "Senior Palace Source" and that, in fact, they are being led to believe that HM wants it out there and known that she was displeased with being told and not asked. There are some carefully worded suggestions beginning to be bandied about that perhaps this was the final straw for the Palace and they will begin to subtley or not so subtley fight back.

Enough with the hints and innuendo by the "Senior Palace Sources" and the Royal Reporters, and what "they are being led to believe" and "carefully worded suggestions". This is exactly what Harry has had enough of and why he threatening to sue.

Let the BBC and the reporters name their sources where they are getting what "they are led to believe".

And let the Palace come out with their own statement instead of "subtley or not so subtley fighting back".

Put it out their like Harry did...

 

[LadyGlendower]

They are fighting back against a sensationalist media which feeds on people for its own ends, exactly as Diana and Caroline of Monaco did when they had enough of the media's intrusive, excessive and unrelenting coverage. This no doubt has a lot to do with Harry's indignation and disgust with the media over the recent Bashir/Diana revelations.

It looks like they are feeding their family using a sensationalist media to great advantage. IMO, so forth and so on.

 

[assia]

I just hope Harry & Meghan will not release a picture tomorrow on what would have been the Duke of Edinburgh 100th birthday ! This must be a Dah of remembrance not a PR stunt !

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Does request go for Harry's brother and cousins as well?

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

I doubt that too many people would argue, but parliamentary procedure is long-winded, and there's a lot to get through, because of the exigencies of the pandemic. We're often hear complaints that a Bill over something or other, which some people consider important, hasn't even been debated due to lack of time, and there'd be a lot of moaning if time were to be spent on Harry and Meghan.


I feel so sad for the Queen. Maybe she's looking at that lovely photo of her and Prince Philip and Doria with Archie when he was a few days old, and wondering how on earth things got from there to here in the space of two years. I think that's what upsets people the most, that Harry and Meghan don't seem to care how distressing their behaviour must be for her.

Yes, Alison, my dad is 95, a month younger than HM, and if one of my daughters, niece, or nephew pulled something like this, I would be beside myself. Like HM, my dad is sharp as a tack, but things like this can really age anyone.

I so feel for her and also for Charles. I can imagine that Charles’ siblings want him to just “shut up” too.

Someone posted this lovely video of Diana talking about wanting to be a counselor and also William and and Diana telling Harry to “shush” when he was quite small. I cannot imagine all of this happening if Diana were still alive. So very very sad

 

[Sandy345]

Evidently Mr. Markle has given an interview with 60 Minutes Australia. He says that he was not informed of Lili's birth and learned of it when he heard the news on the radio. He reiterates that he will be very disappointed if he does not get to hold his granddaughter. The trailer then shows him stating "You want dirty laundry? This is the first time I've discussed these things." It's not clear exactly what he might be discussing.

He turned to the media instead of returning calls of Harry and Meghan. Supposedly he does not see any of his grandchildren. Maybe if he stays away from the media and/or gives the money he gets for his interviews--to charity, there could be a thawing. He just keeps on running to the media. Has he held any of his other grandchildren, including Archie? He seems to be estranged from his family: Tom Jr and perhaps Samantha (though he seemed to follow her lead in slamming Meghan to the media. Sad. I think it a big turn off for a father to run to the media to slam his own child. He discussed Plenty since the run up to the wedding. Probably the same old same old.

 

[Sandy345]

I tend to believe that the Queen was asked permission first.

 

[ACO]

My guess is we will likely never see the kids in the UK now which is a shame.

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

I have tried so hard to keep out of this but you sum this whole mess up beautifully. Harry and Meghan know that the palace would never have made a comment with regards the existence or not of a conversion where the Queen was asked or told about the name, It would have remained a family matter.

By allowing Omid and I use the word for a reason to issue a comment that inferred she had agreed the name opened the can of worms.

I have made the comment before , the sentence out of the paragraph, they position things in a way to lead people down a road, while failing to correct if the wrong impression has been taken.
I do not have an opinion one way or another regarding the use of the name, the only comment I will make is why name a child one name and at the same time tell you she will be called a different name.

Absolutely, it makes no sense.

 

[Leopoldine]

Back to business -- on the baby thread, there was an observation that HM would benefit by always having a witness to conversations with the Sussexes -- someone in the room, so to speak.

An interesting point.

The conversation was on the telephone and not witnessed, or not totally witnessed (meaning a witness with HM could not hear both sides) .... unless the call was being monitored. That, the monitoring, may be something the Sussexes want to expose and point at to boost their "victims of conspiracies" storyline, which now seems to be their brand. They might even try a "Poor HM, trapped and spied upon, a victim like us" line of attack.

If the conversation was not witnessed, these two are essentially playing "he said she said" with a 95 year old lady.

 

[Anna1519]

My guess is we will likely never see the kids in the UK now which is a shame.

I agree with you - not after this. And that really is too bad.

 

[Erin9]

Camilla Tominey in the Telegraph making many of the same points we've been discussing here. That that name isn't the exact issue it's part of a wider frustration. As well as also pointing out that the BBC statement and the Sussex Global Press secretary statement don't actually contradict each other very much:





https://archive.ph/i2IOw

Thanks. This really is a very good article.

I personally think the Sussexes are making a mountain out of a molehill in threatening legal action over this. There isn’t a huge difference in the statements. Pick your battles….IMO. And- noteworthy- no one has retracted or clarified or amended anything yet. Hmmm….

And I do agree this response wasn’t just about the name- but about EVERYTHING. It wouldn’t overly stun me if HM hasn’t been thrilled that private conversations with her have been used by the Sussexes - IMO- for their own positive PR. (However true the stories may- or may not- be.) The whole additional explanation about Lili’s name is a perfect example. Totally not needed, but they apparently needed the public to know just how onboard HM was with everything. And….only her.

I really like the point that criticizing the institution IS criticizing HM. Totally agree. She embodies it. She’s the CEO so to speak. They have been careful to mostly- with one huge exception- not criticize her by name….but it is still criticism IMO. (I don’t want to go OT in the baby thread, but this has been my thought as well. And I liked seeing it in print.)

 

[TLLK]

Maybe this goes in here to separate this latest spat from Baby Lili herself.

Apparently the Sussexes have now sent legal letters to every major British media outlet warning them not to repeat the "defamatory" BBC story. Which doesn't seem to have had much affect as they're all running both stories most leading with "Harry goes to war with BBC over name story" and then repeating the original quote from Palace Source.

It bears pointing out that the Palace has so far not put out a statement or another "source" disavowing the report this morning.

It appears that once again the Sussexes are trying to control the media which is an impossible task.

In spite of all this legal drama still no one is able to put out a statement that says "we asked for specific permission to use the specific name Lilibet within the last few days/weeks and HM was delighted to specifically grant the request."

It's all weasel wording and this is the same Harry that used a phone call with HM before Megxit to claim that HM had agreed to all their HIHO demands and courtiers were just overstepping/vengeful/wrong when that was clearly not true.

They have a brand new baby girl and they seem very focused on the media. If they let this go the questions over her name would die down in a few days

This sums it up perfectly IMHO. I tend to believe also that Her Majesty was simply informed by the Sussexes that they intended to honor her by using one of her names along with Diana for their daughter. However I do not believe that they specified that it would be "Lilibet."



Sadly what should be a very happy and busy week in California is now become yet another announcement that the couple is considering taking legal action.

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

The highlight of this BBC saga is not that the story remains up on the BBC's homepage under the headline "Harry and Meghan did not ask Queen to use Lilibet name- Palace source" but this line from the article:

"There were subsequent stories in the press quoting 'friends' of the couple who strongly suggested that Harry had sought permission from his grandmother."

"Friends."

 

[MaryVirginia]

"All this drama over a baby's name at what should be a happy time. I really wonder what the end game is in threatening to sue the BBC and any other media that reported on it. Control? Forcing a statement from HM? Because any publicity is good publicity?"

My thoughts and questions exactly.

 

[stunking]

Agreed

One thing does stand out for me with the Sussexes taking on the BBC and threatening "legal action" is that it does accomplish something.

It's like dangling a carrot before a horse, Whenever someone writes and prints something in regards to the Sussexes, they're guaranteed to get a reaction and those reactions generate more stories and interest by the public and the end result then is.... (drum roll please).... more green dollars in the pocket.

Harry and Meghan are getting pretty darned good at playing the PR game. Sometimes it makes me wonder if the name "Lilibet" was chosen because they *knew* it would create controversy. Perhaps the chances are slim to none that this actually happened as I don't think any human being would use their child this way but just the fact that it *could* be a possibility indicates how much they do need any kind of PR to remain relevant in today's world.

It's about the "Almighty Dollar".

Reminds me of the Paul Burell story where he had a lot of Princess Diana's things that he said she had given to him and the Queen was forced to step in and save the day some how. I don't remember the whole story and may be wrong.

 

[4Pam]

Congratulations to them and their families.