There are only so many ways you can dress up 1. A brother who wants a private, relatively boring (stable in the real world) life, and to behave with professionalism in his role and the brother who is 2. A loose cannon and married the wrong woman ( in a public life sense). Truth is Harry is more like Margaret than the Duke of Windsor. It isn't important he has done this ( in terms of the royal family) but it is tragic on a family front. Reality is Harry is just unreliable and unsuited (in this marriage) to royal life. May have been different within a different context.
Battle of Brothers: William, Harry and the Inside Story of A Family in Tumult
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There are only so many ways you can dress up 1. A brother who wants a private, relatively boring (stable in the real world) life, and to behave with professionalism in his role and the brother who is 2. A loose cannon and married the wrong woman ( in a public life sense). Truth is Harry is more like Margaret than the Duke of Windsor. It isn't important he has done this ( in terms of the royal family) but it is tragic on a family front. Reality is Harry is just unreliable and unsuited (in this marriage) to royal life. May have been different within a different context.
Betsypaige
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I agree with your conclusion (though I’m unclear on your general point)...in which case, it’s best for all involved that Harry is no longer a working Royal. That doesn’t mean that the family can’t still be a family...but, the way it went down was problematic, and as far as I’m concerned it’s primarily on H and M. It didn’t have to be as contentious as it turned out to be.
IMO...Harry and William lost their closeness in their late teens. They each had their own dreams and ways. William however could not do what he wanted as he would one day be King. The only dream he succeeded with was to have Kate by his side. Harry was able to carry on for a time and stay in the military. Something or some one(s) made him leave....who decided Harry had to leave? It was not Harry, he loved the military, the friends the discipline. (Which many people now say he does not have). Everything Harry tried to accomplish sense military days was pretty much squashed. I believe it was someone who thought Harry was becoming too popular as a Royal. He was overshadowing his brother. Then the statement comes out how Charles wants to cut down on the working Royals. There was no job for Harry in the future. Charles had his sister, brother, of course William and Kate to help. Harry was the 3rd wheel. Harry should have been left alone with his beloved military. No matter what Harry did or does, it will be wrong in the eyes of the Family, Media and the Public. I don’t agree with all Harry does but he is not immature or not caring, he is not a lose cannon and we don’t know if he married the wrong person. Only Harry knows that The only peace he would have is away from the family.....it’s a pretty powerful family who pretty much says do it their way or no way. I hope Harry and Meghan have a life they want.
Has no one noticed that William and Kate have enjoyed all the attention they now have? They don’t have to share with anyone. They go work for the Firm, attention is given and they are blossoming. They have no competition and I think that’s how they like it. Again you have your opinions and I have mine. I hope both men and their families have a nice life.
Has no one noticed that William and Kate have enjoyed all the attention they now have? They don’t have to share with anyone. They go work for the Firm, attention is given and they are blossoming. They have no competition and I think that’s how they like it. Again you have your opinions and I have mine. I hope both men and their families have a nice life.
It's not sleazy but the author falls into the same trap as so many others do . They baby Harry and absolve him of all responsibility for his life and choices and then put all the parenting requirements on William instead of Charles .
As far as I know Charles has always intended to have Harry and Meghan as an integral part of any "slimmed down" monarchy. Yes Ialso believe that Charles will also include Anne and Edward now that Andrew has been sidelined.
Could you please elaborate as to why you believe that Prince Harry and his wife would not be involved in Charles' reign?
As far as I know Prince Harry's next step in the military required him to take a desk duty which he did not wish to embark upon. It was his choice to retire.
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I've only seen "landmark" birthdays being given the most media attention.. William and Harry came together for Charles 70th birthday in 2018, and perhaps they will be celebrating with him again sometime soon--the 75th will be a big event. I think birthdays now need to be low key due to coronavirus. I never saw a big fuss made over birthdays of any of the younger ones including William, Kate, Harry, and Meghan. When Kate turns 40 and then William there may be more coverage, but non landmark birthdays generally don't get that much coverage. I see a lot more attention given to the birthdays of the children with photos issued of them by the Cambridges and the Sussexes, respectively.
William and Harry have gone on different paths for years now. As the spare, Harry was able to serve on the front lines.
None of us have read Lacey's book (though I have it on pre-order) as it hasn't been published yet. However, in the segments that I have read the author criticises both Harry and Meghan several times, for both impulsiveness and methods.
However, Lacey does not absolve William of some of the blame for the relationship with his brother falling apart. Unless we believe that William behaved impeccably towards his brother at all times and in all situations since boyhood, and that includes his attitude to the woman Harry married and happens to love very much, that is probably near the truth.
No situation is ever black and white with no shades in between. And no human being on this earth is 100% perfect, with no flaws, not even William.
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To answer some posts Re: William and Harry, I don't see how William "parented" Harry. William was away at school for one thing and was headed to St. Andrew's where he lived in a residence for students. Harry seemed to depend on Tiggy and Mark Dyer and he did get to Sandhurst; I don't think Dyer was the best influence though. William and Harry also for the most part had a different circle of friends.
With regard to birthday parties and other gatherings, it's a two way street.
Did William, with or without Kate, turn up at any of Harry's birthday gatherings since they were in their early twenties? Apart from family get togethers and the occasional polo match and even more occasional shoot, were the brothers ever seen together socialising?
Harry genuinely welcomed Kate into the family. They were seen laughing together at events like Trooping. The DM for years emphasised the closeness, had stories about Kate putting herself out by arranging venues for Harry's birthday by for instance changing rooms at KP into a winter ski resort. Did any of that happen? No.
In fact it doesn't appear that Kate went to any of Harry's birthdays, nor to any private celebrations when he and Meghan became engaged. Harry, having been happy to welcome Kate as William's wife, may well have felt hurt and annoyed that the same courtesy wasn't extended to Meghan. Nor, apparently, did the Cambridges bother to visit Harry and Meghan in Oxfordshire during the many months they were there. Not once. So to put the lack of effort to meet up over the years on one side and not the other is not correct.
Did William, with or without Kate, turn up at any of Harry's birthday gatherings since they were in their early twenties? Apart from family get togethers and the occasional polo match and even more occasional shoot, were the brothers ever seen together socialising?
Harry genuinely welcomed Kate into the family. They were seen laughing together at events like Trooping. The DM for years emphasised the closeness, had stories about Kate putting herself out by arranging venues for Harry's birthday by for instance changing rooms at KP into a winter ski resort. Did any of that happen? No.
In fact it doesn't appear that Kate went to any of Harry's birthdays, nor to any private celebrations when he and Meghan became engaged. Harry, having been happy to welcome Kate as William's wife, may well have felt hurt and annoyed that the same courtesy wasn't extended to Meghan. Nor, apparently, did the Cambridges bother to visit Harry and Meghan in Oxfordshire during the many months they were there. Not once. So to put the lack of effort to meet up over the years on one side and not the other is not correct.
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From what I have read from the serialization of this book, the author does take Charles and Diana to task for their parenting during their marriage ie: Firing nanny Barbara Barnes. Later after Diana's death, he chides Charles' decision to install a club for his sons at Highgrove and for being away from his sons during their school breaks.
Diana firing Barbara Barnes.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8807983/Princess-Diana-fired-Princes-William-Harrys-surrogate-mother-jealousy-new-book-claims.html-
William and Harry as teens at Highgrove.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-long-Meghan-came-scene-new-book-reveals.html
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The author points out too that William and Harry were drinking and smoking at an early age. At the 50th birthday party for Charles, they were seen smoking. I think unless there is supervision, it is a bad idea to install a club for teens. The good thing that came out of it was that Harry met his first Serious girlfriend, Chelsy Davy who was invited to Club H.
Agreed but even with supervision, it was a very poor idea to permit the then underage brothers to have their own club at Highgrove which gave them access to alcohol.
Osipi
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Whether or not "Club H" was installed at Highgrove, any home with teens and the parents being away can become a "party zone". Growing up, having "parties" unsupervised were a right of passage. I did it. My kids did it and I imagine their kids are going to do it too when they're old enough.
All it took in my time to designate it a party was a) Boones Farm apple wine, b) no parents around and c) Sly and the Family Stone's "Dance To The Music". Oh to be young and stupid again!
All it took in my time to designate it a party was a) Boones Farm apple wine, b) no parents around and c) Sly and the Family Stone's "Dance To The Music". Oh to be young and stupid again!
An old article from 2007.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-466584/Harry-fears-Wills-rush-wed-reunion-Kate.html
I'm not saying that it's true, it's the beloved Daily Mail after all. And typical of those rags, the content is mostly about bashing Kate and many mentioned of some 'friends' instead of Harry. I just want to point out that once upon a time, they already pulled this kind of story.
I wonder, if they (whoever they are) don't want Harry to overshadow William, why 'they' pulled him from military?
IPSOS MORI poll in 2012 show that:
"
A Telegraph article from 2013:
Harry's popularity rose in 2014, but logically if someone felt threaten by that, isn't it better to 'bury' him in military desk duty instead of pulling him out (March 2015) and give him more 'media visibility' by making him working royal?
Then if there's no 'future' or possible 'role' for him, why they appointed him as Captain General Royal Marines in 2017? That role always associated closely to the throne with the previous holder were George V, Edward VIII, George VI, Phillip (consort of the Queen), so by that pattern after Phillip stepped down it should go to either Charles or William, right?
I think it's a statement on how they see Harry's importance in the future of BRF.
(PS: rumour has it that it'd go to Anne, but there's another claim that Royal Marines has approached William to take that role.)
Betsypaige
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This is the kind of thing I mean when I call the book sleazy. Obviously Charles and Diana were not perfect parents - no one is - but I don’t like Lacey judging them in hindsight, or blaming them for their adult sons’ choices. He’s a historian, not a psychiatrist. Does Lacey have children? If so, I’ll bet he wouldn’t like someone taking him to task for his parenting choices. I have no respect for him anymore.
From The Australian article which I linked upthread and is behind a paywall.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/wo...s/news-story/ff08ab595202552c0b3e05d1c20dfced
Robert Lacey’s latest book on the British monarchy is still four days from publication, but already he’s getting hate mail from furious Prince William fans. “There is such anger that the book has dared to suggest Prince William is not perfect,” says the historian, 76, who has been writing about royal matters for more than 40 years. He is also consultant on The Crown, whose fourth series comes to Netflix next month.
“Portraits of William are always so idealised because he is our future king. Charles III and Queen Camilla is not an appealing prospect, but there is William and his wonderful wife - and that’s what everybody has their hopes set on.”
Not an appealing prospect? Now Prince Charles fans will be reaching for their organic quills.
Lacey’s book, Battle of Brothers, is an account of the uneasy relationship between William and Prince Harry. Until he began his research, Lacey had thought this feud was a newspaper invention. He says he has spoken to dozens of people who know the princes and now believes the rift is even more serious than reports have claimed.
Lacey suggests, among other things, that William has a formidable temper and that - perhaps more wounding - he has gained his reputation for steadiness and sense of duty at the expense of his younger brother.
The brothers race during a Marathon Training Day with Team Heads Together at the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park on February 5, 2017 in London. Picture: Getty
The brothers race during a Marathon Training Day with Team Heads Together at the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park on February 5, 2017 in London. Picture: Getty
Yet this was not the book he had been hoping to write. The heir and the spare he originally had in mind were Charles and Prince Andrew, but he dropped that plan after talking to his friend Peter Morgan, the writer of The Crown, who bluntly advised: “They aren’t the princes that matter any more.”
The resulting book is a mixture of the occasional revelation and well-worn anecdotes about the lives of William and Harry that stretch back to their parents’ courtship and the very public disintegration of that marriage.
Tension between the princes, he claims, dates back to their school days at Eton, where William introduced Harry to a riotous social circle. While Harry took the blame for bad behaviour, William seemed to emerge unscathed.
“This was the beginning of the relentless popular media stereotyping that would eventually drive Prince Harry out of Britain,” writes Lacey. “The other face of that stereotype was, of course, the impeccable image of his perfect elder brother, golden boy Prince William.”
One of the only times Harry got the better of his brother was during his military service. On graduating from Sandhurst, Harry noted that William, then a cadet, would now have to salute him. And while Captain Wales came under fire in Afghanistan, it was decided that sending William anywhere near the front line would prove too great a temptation to the Taliban.
Prince William accompanies Prince Harry on his first day At Wetherby School. Picture: Getty
Prince William accompanies Prince Harry on his first day At Wetherby School. Picture: Getty
Apart from that, Harry was always going to finish in second place. He was hurt, says Lacey, by his father’s plans for a slimmed-down monarchy and resented an official portrait taken early this year showing only the Queen, Charles, William and Prince George - the direct line of succession. But, as we all now know, it is Harry’s marriage - to a woman the author describes, with Wallis Simpson in mind, as “the second American divorcee to screw up the monarchy” - that has proved particularly divisive.
“The palace expected Harry to marry a nice girl called Annabel or Henrietta and to go and live in the country,” says Lacey. “They didn’t expect this bombshell.”
Presented with the opinionated and outspoken Meghan Markle, the palace didn’t know what to do. “There was personal animosity in the palace towards Meghan - and the feeling is mutual,” says Lacey. “There was somebody in the palace - and I can’t name them - who hated Meghan. There is no love lost there.”
This revelation was removed from the book on legal advice. Even with this precaution, Battle of Brothers proved too explosive for sensitive courtiers. Lacey’s usual practice with his royal books is to submit selected chapters to the palace in advance, a habit dating back to the help he says he got for Majesty, his 1977 biography of the Queen. But this time the packet came back unopened. “They took fright over the title, probably,” he says.
Nothing seemed to bring the two sides together. William, who made his girlfriend wait nine years before suggesting marriage, was so worried about Harry’s rush to the altar that he asked his uncle, Earl Spencer, to intervene. That only made matters worse: “Harry was furious with his elder brother for dragging other family members into the row.”
Relations between the palace and the Sussexes became so bad that pictures of Harry and Meghan were notably absent from the display of photographs on Her Majesty’s desk during the 2019 Christmas message, although they had featured the year before: “Who does and who does not feature on the royal Christmas desk has always been like the changing panorama of faces on the historic balcony of Moscow’s Kremlin. It showed who was in favour and who was not.”
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/wo...s/news-story/ff08ab595202552c0b3e05d1c20dfced
Robert Lacey’s latest book on the British monarchy is still four days from publication, but already he’s getting hate mail from furious Prince William fans. “There is such anger that the book has dared to suggest Prince William is not perfect,” says the historian, 76, who has been writing about royal matters for more than 40 years. He is also consultant on The Crown, whose fourth series comes to Netflix next month.
“Portraits of William are always so idealised because he is our future king. Charles III and Queen Camilla is not an appealing prospect, but there is William and his wonderful wife - and that’s what everybody has their hopes set on.”
Not an appealing prospect? Now Prince Charles fans will be reaching for their organic quills.
Lacey’s book, Battle of Brothers, is an account of the uneasy relationship between William and Prince Harry. Until he began his research, Lacey had thought this feud was a newspaper invention. He says he has spoken to dozens of people who know the princes and now believes the rift is even more serious than reports have claimed.
Lacey suggests, among other things, that William has a formidable temper and that - perhaps more wounding - he has gained his reputation for steadiness and sense of duty at the expense of his younger brother.
The brothers race during a Marathon Training Day with Team Heads Together at the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park on February 5, 2017 in London. Picture: Getty
The brothers race during a Marathon Training Day with Team Heads Together at the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park on February 5, 2017 in London. Picture: Getty
Yet this was not the book he had been hoping to write. The heir and the spare he originally had in mind were Charles and Prince Andrew, but he dropped that plan after talking to his friend Peter Morgan, the writer of The Crown, who bluntly advised: “They aren’t the princes that matter any more.”
The resulting book is a mixture of the occasional revelation and well-worn anecdotes about the lives of William and Harry that stretch back to their parents’ courtship and the very public disintegration of that marriage.
Tension between the princes, he claims, dates back to their school days at Eton, where William introduced Harry to a riotous social circle. While Harry took the blame for bad behaviour, William seemed to emerge unscathed.
“This was the beginning of the relentless popular media stereotyping that would eventually drive Prince Harry out of Britain,” writes Lacey. “The other face of that stereotype was, of course, the impeccable image of his perfect elder brother, golden boy Prince William.”
One of the only times Harry got the better of his brother was during his military service. On graduating from Sandhurst, Harry noted that William, then a cadet, would now have to salute him. And while Captain Wales came under fire in Afghanistan, it was decided that sending William anywhere near the front line would prove too great a temptation to the Taliban.
Prince William accompanies Prince Harry on his first day At Wetherby School. Picture: Getty
Prince William accompanies Prince Harry on his first day At Wetherby School. Picture: Getty
Apart from that, Harry was always going to finish in second place. He was hurt, says Lacey, by his father’s plans for a slimmed-down monarchy and resented an official portrait taken early this year showing only the Queen, Charles, William and Prince George - the direct line of succession. But, as we all now know, it is Harry’s marriage - to a woman the author describes, with Wallis Simpson in mind, as “the second American divorcee to screw up the monarchy” - that has proved particularly divisive.
“The palace expected Harry to marry a nice girl called Annabel or Henrietta and to go and live in the country,” says Lacey. “They didn’t expect this bombshell.”
Presented with the opinionated and outspoken Meghan Markle, the palace didn’t know what to do. “There was personal animosity in the palace towards Meghan - and the feeling is mutual,” says Lacey. “There was somebody in the palace - and I can’t name them - who hated Meghan. There is no love lost there.”
This revelation was removed from the book on legal advice. Even with this precaution, Battle of Brothers proved too explosive for sensitive courtiers. Lacey’s usual practice with his royal books is to submit selected chapters to the palace in advance, a habit dating back to the help he says he got for Majesty, his 1977 biography of the Queen. But this time the packet came back unopened. “They took fright over the title, probably,” he says.
Nothing seemed to bring the two sides together. William, who made his girlfriend wait nine years before suggesting marriage, was so worried about Harry’s rush to the altar that he asked his uncle, Earl Spencer, to intervene. That only made matters worse: “Harry was furious with his elder brother for dragging other family members into the row.”
Relations between the palace and the Sussexes became so bad that pictures of Harry and Meghan were notably absent from the display of photographs on Her Majesty’s desk during the 2019 Christmas message, although they had featured the year before: “Who does and who does not feature on the royal Christmas desk has always been like the changing panorama of faces on the historic balcony of Moscow’s Kremlin. It showed who was in favour and who was not.”
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Betsypaige
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That article (Thanks for posting) makes me even angrier with Lacey.
I’m reaching for something, though not organic quills. Lacey has no business speaking for anyone else...I’m a Charles fan, and I think he’ll be a terrific King. My my, every word Lacey speaks about Charles or William drips with disdain. “William and his wonderful wife” - I can just hear the bitterness and sarcasm in his voice...
This really annoys me. When has anyone ever suggested William was perfect? He has a temper, that’s nothing new. As for his “reputation for steadiness and sense of duty”, he’s EARNED that through his actions. Harry is the one who ditched the UK - that’s not William’s fault or anyone else’s. Harry chose to leave, chose his personal life over a sense of duty - I’m not judging him with this comment, it’s the truth. If that works for him, fine, but I’m not about to feel sorry for him. William has been brilliant during this crisis - so have the BRF in general - and that’s the truth; it has nothing to do with H.
About the Christmas photo, I’m still rolling my eyes.
Yes, Lacey has criticized H and M’s behavior, but it’s very clear that he’s personally sympathetic to him while overly critical of William. As far as I’m concerned, he’s an H apologist.
I’ll never take anything Robert Lacey says seriously again.
I’m reaching for something, though not organic quills. Lacey has no business speaking for anyone else...I’m a Charles fan, and I think he’ll be a terrific King. My my, every word Lacey speaks about Charles or William drips with disdain. “William and his wonderful wife” - I can just hear the bitterness and sarcasm in his voice...
This really annoys me. When has anyone ever suggested William was perfect? He has a temper, that’s nothing new. As for his “reputation for steadiness and sense of duty”, he’s EARNED that through his actions. Harry is the one who ditched the UK - that’s not William’s fault or anyone else’s. Harry chose to leave, chose his personal life over a sense of duty - I’m not judging him with this comment, it’s the truth. If that works for him, fine, but I’m not about to feel sorry for him. William has been brilliant during this crisis - so have the BRF in general - and that’s the truth; it has nothing to do with H.
About the Christmas photo, I’m still rolling my eyes.
Yes, Lacey has criticized H and M’s behavior, but it’s very clear that he’s personally sympathetic to him while overly critical of William. As far as I’m concerned, he’s an H apologist.
I’ll never take anything Robert Lacey says seriously again.
The Daily Mail article suggests that Harry was already a heavy drinker and a regular (daily) pot smoker at the age of 16. Although that is not new information, I didn't realize it was that bad.
The Daily Fail asserts and twists a lot of things that are untrue . Many, many young British males drink heavily in their teens and early twenties, and not a few smoke pot. And that allegedly included members in William and Harry's circle, who used to gather at the Rattlebones Inn near Highgrove. If Harry was an alcoholic pothead during his army career, he would hardly have been trusted with very expensive pieces of equipment like Lynx and Apache helicopters.
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I agree that it was not new information and quite frankly from reading the excerpts it appears that there are very little new stories in this book. Both brothers belonged to a set of friends who had similar habits and fairly easy access to alcohol. As for the allegation that Prince Harry was a daily pot smoker at 16, hopefully that was a habit that ended soon afterwards.
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This is all true. According to official records Harry was never officially in the RAF but was an Honorary Air Commandant. Harry instead served in British Army for 10 years. Harry did take lessons in 2011 and passed as a co-pilot gunner sharing duties with others. He was awarded a prize for best co-pilot gunner on Apache in Feb 2012 but never piloted the Apache which is a big difference.
It is possible. I know many people who were regular pot smokers in high school and in college and grew out of it later on. It is not a particularly addictive drug.
Quite frankly I would worry more about the revelation that Harry was a heavy drinker at such young age. That is normally a symptom of bigger problems.
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rominet09
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What is the use of such information ?
You have to pass helicopter pilot exams before you can be appointed as a co-pilot. Co-pilot-gunners don't share duties with others when on missions, as Harry was, in war zones in Afghanistan. Harry passed the exams to pilot in both Lynx and Apache helicopters after the two years training involved ànd Prince Charles was present at the ceremony when he received his wings.
He also qualified as a helicopter Commander, not in an honorary position actually, while he was serving in Air Services.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23200552
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I don't think Harry ever used pot except that brief "experimentation." I agree Curryong, Harry would not have been flying helicopters had he been a pot smoker. He and William did frequent the clubs but were not alcoholics.
The article that you shared Curryong confirms that Prince Harry aka Capt. Wales during his army days did share piloting duties as well as his role as a gunner.
Yes, TLLK. It also confirms that he was an Apache helicopter pilot, who was appointed a Commander (not honorary, earned) during his service career.
The 2013 BBC report also states, that following his return from Afghanistan, the Air Services authorities
confirmed that the prince "will continue with normal duties as an Apache pilot based at Wattisham Airfield". Says nothing there about being anything other than a helicopter pilot.
I was replying in my original post to the poster before me, who stated that Harry was a co-pilot and 'had never piloted an Apache. Big difference'. That is not so, as I pointed out. Also there was an inference from that poster that the Commander role was 'honorary'. It wasn't.
And I don't think that Harry has anything whatsoever to be ashamed of, either in his tours of service in Afghanistan with Air Services nor in his decade with the Army.
The 2013 BBC report also states, that following his return from Afghanistan, the Air Services authorities
confirmed that the prince "will continue with normal duties as an Apache pilot based at Wattisham Airfield". Says nothing there about being anything other than a helicopter pilot.
I was replying in my original post to the poster before me, who stated that Harry was a co-pilot and 'had never piloted an Apache. Big difference'. That is not so, as I pointed out. Also there was an inference from that poster that the Commander role was 'honorary'. It wasn't.
And I don't think that Harry has anything whatsoever to be ashamed of, either in his tours of service in Afghanistan with Air Services nor in his decade with the Army.
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Lacey. There are only so many ways he can make this story interesting. Because it really isn't that interesting. Even the Kate and William thing. I mean they were together so young...do we honesty dljnt that there wouldn't have been immature cruelties along the way.
Because Wills and Kate married and seem to be making a success of their marriage. Oh they smoked pot. Who cares.
Harry and William were very close...if there was an element of being under the thumb there...It happens. Harry met Meghan and everything changed. Friends, family, media. It all went peat tong. And that in nutshell is it.
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