Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts

[An Ard Ri]

Wasn't the Prince dancing on ice or with the stars a few years back?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

Wasn't the Prince dancing on ice or with the stars a few years back?

Yes, but that was nothing when he indeed becomes a minister under Berlusconi. Even a minister of something like Culture (who can be in political problems on his own department too, as Italy is crammed with monuments, but also the experimental ballet school in city A would like to have subsidy, the opera in city B is on the verge of bankruptcy, and maybe there is a heavily contested prestige project in the historic centre of city C the minister has to defend, etc.)

Pretenders and an executive role in politics: no, no, no. There are (were) several parliamentarians, like the late Archduke Otto of Austria, but that was not an executive role as a minister or a state secretary. Even the bare fact that Emanuele Filiberto is willing to join Berlusconi, a heavily controversial and contested figure, shows he has learned nothing from his great-grandfather Vittorio-Emanuele III and his grandfather Umberto. Exactly that being too close to Mussolini's Government caused the downfall of the monarchy.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Yes, but that was nothing when he indeed becomes a minister under Berlusconi. Even a minister of something like Culture (who can be in political problems on his own department too, as Italy is crammed with monuments, but also the experimental ballet school in city A would like to have subsidy, the opera in city B is on the verge of bankruptcy, and maybe there is a heavily contested prestige project in the historic centre of city C the minister has to defend, etc.)

Pretenders and an executive role in politics: no, no, no. There are (were) several parliamentarians, like the late Archduke Otto of Austria, but that was not an executive role as a minister or a state secretary. Even the bare fact that Emanuele Filiberto is willing to join Berlusconi, a heavily controversial and contested figure, shows he has learned nothing from his great-grandfather Vittorio-Emanuele III and his grandfather Umberto. Exactly that being too close to Mussolini's Government caused the downfall of the monarchy.

King Umberto II has never been close to Mussolini and Vittorio Emanuele III was not a big fan of the famous president of the Council either.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

King Umberto II has never been close to Mussolini and Vittorio Emanuele III was not a big fan of the famous president of the Council either.

Prince Umberto was the commander of the Army Group West which attacked French forces during the Italian invasion of France (10-25 June 1940). On 29 October 1942 Mussolini created Prince Umberto Maresciallo d'Italia. Vittorio Emanuele and Umberto may not have been "a big fan" of Mussolini, as you describe, but both were not really at the sideline, as Umberto's activites as commander of aggresion forces show.

The fact that the Italians, apart from the conditions around the Referendum, did not support continuation of the monarchy (55% against) say enough about how King Vittorio Emanuele and later King Umberto were judged by the Italians.

Yes, yes, the Referendum was chaotic here and there, but even if he had won the Referendum with 51% even then he had to step down as the whole North, the economic heartland of the country, was in o-ver-whel-ming favour of the establishment of a republic. It would never have been convincing enough, never sustainable.

Emanuele Filiberto still has not learned the lesson that in 2018 there is only place for strict constitutional monarchs with a 99%, if not 100%, purely ceremonial role.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Prince Umberto was the commander of the Army Group West which attacked French forces during the Italian invasion of France (10-25 June 1940). On 29 October 1942 Mussolini created Prince Umberto Maresciallo d'Italia. Vittorio Emanuele and Umberto may not have been "a big fan" of Mussolini, as you describe, but both were not really at the sideline, as Umberto's activites as commander of aggresion forces show.

The fact that the Italians, apart from the conditions around the Referendum, did not support continuation of the monarchy (55% against) say enough about how King Vittorio Emanuele and later King Umberto were judged by the Italians.

Yes, yes, the Referendum was chaotic here and there, but even if he had won the Referendum with 51% even then he had to step down as the whole North, the economic heartland of the country, was in o-ver-whel-ming favour of the establishment of a republic. It would never have been convincing enough, never sustainable.

Emanele Filiberto still has not learned the lesson that in 2018 there is only place for strict constitutional monarchs with a 99%, if not 100%, purely ceremonial role.

I agree that a descendent of a Sovereign should not be involved in politics but King Umberto's grandson does not belong to a dynastic branc of the Savoys.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

I agree that a descendent of a Sovereign should not be involved in politics but King Umberto's grandson does not belong to a dynastic branc of the Savoys.

Opinions differ about that, but that "problem" will automatically be solved as Emanuele Filiberto has no sons.

Unless he does it the "michaelian way": declaring that his daughters are his successors indeed.

When we accept this from Michael, how can we not accept this from Emanuele Filiberto?

For so far Prince Aimone and Princess Olga live in far-away Russia and pursue their private life and career (picture: Prince Aimone leads Prime Minister Medvedev through the Pirelli Tyre Plant in Voronezh).

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

When we accept this from Michael, how can we not accept this from Emanuele Filiberto?

I think the words you’re looking for, are ‘double’ and ‘standard’, or the straightforward ‘inconsistencies’.

If the Prince of Venezia has no future role in the dynastic aspirations of the Savoys because we’re using Machiavellian principles of ‘sins of the father’, what does it matter what choices he makes for his future?

It all depends, really. If he turns out to be a good politician, it’s a good way to elevate the cause of monarchy in Italy again. If he’s not, or if anything controversial and difficult lands on his table, he might find himself sullied, but in all fairness, what does he have to lose at this stage?

A restoration is not on the current agenda, and the Savoys and some of its saboteurial supporters spend more energy debating titles, acceptable marriages and primogeniture, while Italians in general could care less. Positive attention is what the Italians will respond to. It remains to be seen if a ministerial career is the way to achieve that, in a land that has more governments than a decade has years.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Opinions differ about that, but that "problem" will automatically be solved as Emanuele Filiberto has no sons.

Unless he does it the "michaelian way": declaring that his daughters are his successors indeed.

When we accept this from Michael, how can we not accept this from Emanuele Filiberto?

For so far Prince Aimone and Princess Olga live in far-away Russia and pursue their private life and career (picture: Prince Aimone leads Prime Minister Medvedev through the Pirelli Tyre Plant in Voronezh).

There is no comparison between a Sovereign and a non-dynastic descendant of a King.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Cory

There is no comparison between a Sovereign and a non-dynastic descendant of a King.

I doubt there is a need for this rehash without anything new to it.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Opinions differ about that, but that "problem" will automatically be solved as Emanuele Filiberto has no sons.

Unless he does it the "michaelian way": declaring that his daughters are his successors indeed.

When we accept this from Michael, how can we not accept this from Emanuele Filiberto?

For so far Prince Aimone and Princess Olga live in far-away Russia and pursue their private life and career (picture: Prince Aimone leads Prime Minister Medvedev through the Pirelli Tyre Plant in Voronezh).

Emanuele-Filiberto di Savoia does not seem involved in politics anymore.
Prince Aimone is not very known to the Italians and the support for the House of Savoy is almost inexistent.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Cory

Prince Aimone is not very known to the Italians and the support for the House of Savoy is almost inexistent.

Source please.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

Emanuele-Filiberto di Savoia does not seem involved in politics anymore. [...].

It was you who brought the news that he could serve in a Berlusconi Government? Isn't that "politics"?

[Katrianna]

Italy has been unable to keep a stable government for any length of time for decades and to suggest restoring the Monarchy when the two branches haven't gotten along for eons without a sliver of a chance of reconciliation is a losing situation. To have a stable monarchy there needs to a stable govt. backing the institution.
Just to add to the Emanuele Filiberto trivia, he also ran a food truck in Los Angeles for a very short time.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

It was you who brought the news that he could serve in a Berlusconi Government? Isn't that "politics"?

He was a candidate for the elections not a member of the government.

The Savoia Family of any branch are certainly not the most popular Family in the country.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

It was you who brought the news that he could serve in a Berlusconi Government? Isn't that "politics"?

Remember the key word from a few posts up?

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Katrianna

Italy has been unable to keep a stable government for any length of time for decades and to suggest restoring the Monarchy when the two branches haven't gotten along for eons without a sliver of a chance of reconciliation is a losing situation. To have a stable monarchy there needs to a stable govt. backing the institution.
Just to add to the Emanuele Filiberto trivia, he also ran a food truck in Los Angeles for a very short time.

He is a private person so he can choose the job he wants. He was interested in TV and then politics and now the promotion of the Italian food.

[Duc_et_Pair]

The talking about restoration leads to nothing: most likely the Savoys themselves are not at all interested. They honour their illustrious House's glorious memory and that was it, I think.

Not only was Italy only for a limited time one united kingdom: only for 75 years (the current republic is 72 years old). Like in Germany it has overpowered centuries old smaller states and as the separatists of Lega Nord show, regional tensions still are apparent in today's Italy.

No matter an eventual (and unlikely) overhelming popularity of a Savoia pretender: as said earlier, it is hard to see the likes of the anti-establishment and direct-democratism propaging Movimento 5 Stelle, the separatistic Lega Nord, the green-left Sinistra Italiana, the progressive Articulo Uno or the social-democrats of Partido Uno ever vote to end the Italian Republic...

And the most important thing: King Umberto accepted the deposition of the monarchy and urged the Italians to serve the new republic. With that he factually accepted that times have changed and that Italy would never be a monarchy again.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Katrianna

To have a stable monarchy there needs to a stable govt. backing the institution.

In all fairness, that's not the case in quite a few monarchies, unstable governments tend to be offset by the stability and continuation of the monarchy at the top of governance. However, to restore a monarchy one does need stable governments on side with the cause. In this day and age, restorations won't happen without political support, at least not in the West.

Obviously to most, with the Crown Prince being both too old and controversial, he will never follow his father onto the throne, but the Prince of Venezia might, with the right campaign. For that to happen, he needs to make the right choices along the way, but also make friends in high places in Italian politics and society, and take up chances to affect change through work, along the lines of Prince Leka in Albania, and Crown Prince Nikola in Montenegro.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by LadyRohan

In all fairness, that's not the case in quite a few monarchies, unstable governments tend to be offset by the stability and continuation of the monarchy at the top of governance. However, to restore a monarchy one does need stable governments on side with the cause. In this day and age, restorations won't happen without political support, at least not in the West.

Obviously to most, with the Crown Prince being both too old and controversial, he will never follow his father onto the throne, but the Prince of Venezia might, with the right campaign. For that to happen, he needs to make the right choices along the way, but also make friends in high places in Italian politics and society, and take up chances to affect change through work, along the lines of Prince Leka in Albania, and Crown Prince Nikola in Montenegro.

In all fairness: Albania and Montenegro are small states, amongst the poorest in Europe and with a democracy still in development. The current state of Montenegro is only 11 years old (sedition from Serbia in 2006). It is impossible to compare that with Italy, one of the giants in the European Union, the world's 7th biggest economy. What Leka and Nikola possibly can "achieve" in their small, and "overseeable" countries is unthinkable for the big complicated patchwork of regions and former states which together form the arch-difficult Italian Republic.

[maria-olivia]

Cory and Duc , How do you have time write a lot of Posts.
In the Abbey of hautecombe King Umberto is burried with the seal (?) of the italian Kings