Princely House of Lippe

[Vizier]

Why Was Prince Bernhard's Parents' Marriage Morganatic?

I am asking about the famous or infamous Prince Bernhard who married into the Dutch Royal family, not his father, also named Bernhard. The son was apparently born a Count of Biesterfeld and only later given the title of Prince of Lippe-Biesterfeld. (Possibly this gave him a place in the succession that he initially did not have.) What I don't understand is how his mother, Amgard Von Cramm who was a Baroness from an old noble family with entirely noble lineage for at least several generations on both sides of her family tree was considered an unacceptable non-"ebenburtig" spouse, given that only fourteen years earlier in the famous (I guess for people here!) Lippe Inheritance Case, Bernhard's great-grandmother, Modeste von Unruh, WAS considered an acceptable spouse, even though she was merely part of the untitled nobility.

Did the House of Lippe change its laws, raising its standards after winning the case? I have read that perhaps the issue was that Armgard was a divorcee, but this seems implausible for a Protestant House like the Lippes.

Can anyone explain this? Thanks.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Ebenbürtigkeit was roughly indicated by the placing of a family in the Almanach de Gotha. The House von Lippe was a (former) Sovereign House. The House of Sierstorpf-Cramm was not. Then it is up to the Chef of the House to accept the alliance as dynastic or not.

In 1897 the Reichsgericht settled a dispute in the House of Lippe whether Count Ernst zu Lippe-Biesterfeld, at that moment the most senior male agnate and therefore the possible future Chef of the House, was a dynast or not. His grandfather Wilhelm-Ernst von Lippe-Biesterfeld married Modeste von Unruh, of old nobility but not titled. As a result Wilhelm-Ernst and his issue could not be considered dynasts, so claimed the contestors.

The Reichsgericht studied the Lippe case and all documents and arguments involved. In it's ruling of June 22nd 1897 the Reichsgericht stated that the House Laws required titled nobility indeed, but only for the purpose of the Fideï-commis, which is a specific testamentiary legate arranging that the bulk of the House's assets remain with the Chef of the House. That Fideï-commis was in the meantime replaced by another arrangement. The Reichsgericht found evidence and documentation that the House of Lippe considered simple, but old, nobility as equal. With this, there was no hindrance anymore to Modeste von Unruh's grandson to become the Fürst von Lippe.

 

[fearghas]

Found this article on Marlenes Blog, Royal Musings.
Royal Musings: Prince Bernard zur Lippe joins German Navy
and the newspaper article.
Prinz zur Lippe segelt auf der Gorch Fock | LZ.de - Detmold


I always find it interesting to see what the German royals are doing and the Lippes are of particular interest to me.

 

[deutscheradel]

Dr. Traute Princess of Lippe turns 90 today

Dr. Traute Princess of Lippe nee Becker, the wife of Armin Prince of Lippe (Head of the House Lippe), turns 90 today and will throw a big party at her castle in Detmold.

This article gives an interesting insight into her personality and the celebration of her birthday:

Dr. Traute Prinzessin zur Lippe feiert 90. Geburtstag | LZ.de - Detmold

 

[Stefan]

Prince Armin zur Lippe died in 20. August a few days after his 91th birthday after a short seroius illness at Detmold.
Since 1949 he was the Head of the Princely House and will succed by his only son Stephan

91-Jähriger stirbt nach kurzer schwerer Krankeheit : ...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think we may expect Princess Beatrix and/or Princess Margriet (both born Princesses zur Lippe-Biesterfeld) to represent His Majesty The King at the funeral.

 

[Stefan]

I think we may expect Princess Beatrix and/or Princess Margriet (both born Princesses zur Lippe-Biesterfeld) to represent His Majesty The King at the funeral.

It would be nice if there would be someone from the dutch RF. But i think there was not too much contact between the Families in the last years. I can remeber the late Prince and his wfe attended together with their son and daughter-in-öaw the funeral of Prince Bernhard. But not at other dutch Royal Events.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is another generation, of course. But once the Fürst was interviewed for a Dutch TV program and he told that (then) Prince Willem-Alexander and Princess Máxima have been guests at Schloss Detmold.

Besides family relationship, it of course also is about bringing homage to the Chef of the House to which the Princesses Beatrix, Irene, Margriet and Christina belong. I expect one of these ladies to attend.

 

[Marengo]

A dutch representation would be nice indeed. The prince was always rather gracious & discreet in interviews. He and his wife seemed very friendly people.

I recall that the prince told about his experience as page boy at the wedding of Juliana and Bernhard. He had to borrow white high heeled shoes from an Ysenburg aunt.

IIRC it was prince Bernhard who urged the family to settle on prince Armin as chef. Prince Bernhard also attended the wedding of Armin's eldest son and the new hereditary prince is named Bernhard & had the late prince Bernhard as one of his godfathers. Prince Armin also attended the funeral of prince Bernhard in 2004.

The funeral will take place on August 31st:
http://www.gelderlander.nl/algemeen/show/armin-zur-lippe-neef-van-prins-bernhard-overleden-1.5174637
http://www.noordhollandsdagblad.nl/...81954.ece/Uitvaart-prins-Armin-op-31-augustus

Long article in Dutch from royalblog:
http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalfun...lijkheid-gevoel-voor-geschiedenis-en-vri.html

They refer to a description of the prince as calm, humble, honest and friendly.

 

[lucien]

A dutch representation would be nice indeed. The prince was always rather gracious & discreet in interviews. He and his wife seemed very friendly people.

I recall that the prince told about his experience as page boy at the wedding of Juliana and Bernhard. He had to borrow white high heeled shoes from an Ysenburg aunt.

IIRC it was prince Bernhard who urged the family to settle on prince Armin as chef. Prince Bernhard also attended the wedding of Armin's eldest son and the new hereditary prince is named Bernhard & had the late prince Bernhard as one of his godfathers. Prince Armin also attended the funeral of prince Bernhard in 2004.

The funeral will take place on August 31st:
Armin zur Lippe, neef van prins Bernhard, overleden
Noordhollands Dagblad - Uitvaart prins Armin op 31 augustus

Long article in Dutch from royalblog:
Armin Prinz zur Lippe: gekenmerkt door 'kalmte, nederigheid, eerlijkheid, gevoel voor geschiedenis en vriendelijkheid' - In Memoriam * Royal Funerals

They refer to a description of the prince as calm, humble, honest and friendly.

The funeral is this afternoon.The past days the people of Detmold and many many more from the former Fürstendom of Lippe ,surrounding Detmold,have payed their respects to the late Prince and all are invited to attend the funeral..

 

[Marengo]

700 people attended the funeral. The article shows a picture of Princesss Traute, the widow of Prince Armin, escorted by her son:

Dr. Armin Prinz zur Lippe beigesetzt | LZ.de - Kreis Lippe

The former prime minister of Nordrhein-Westfalen said: "we pay tribute to a great man".

The Dutch royal family was not represented:
Stadt sperrt Parkplätze für Trauerfeier von Prinz Armin | LZ.de - Detmold

How shabby.

 

[Stefan]

700 people attended the funeral. The article shows a picture of Princesss Traute, the widow of Prince Armin, escorted by her son:

Dr. Armin Prinz zur Lippe beigesetzt | LZ.de - Kreis Lippe

If you click on the pic a bit down in the Article a big Picture Gallery opens.
Lots of germano Royals where tehre
Among them#
Duke Friedrich of Württemberg
Landgrave Donatus of Hesse
Fürst Alexander zu Schaumburg-Lippe
Prince Konrad of Saxe-Meiningen
Duke Christian of Oldenburg
Prince Christoph and Princess Elisabeth of Schleswig-Holstein

too name a few.

 

[Stefan]

Prince Stephan has recently given an Interview to the Lipper Newspaper. he and his Family moved into a wing of the Residenzcastle in Detmold last September following the death of his father in August 2015. I made a translation of the Interview for my Blog
https://royaltravel.wordpress.com/2017/01/06/interview-with-prine-stephan-zur-lippe/

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Zum herzlichen Dank! It was an interesting read.
Stephan is a far away relative of the Dutch royal family via Prince Bernhard (father of Princess Beatrix, grandfather of King Willem-Alexander):

Ernst Graf zur Lippe-Biesterfeld (1842-1904) - uncle of Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands
x Caroline Gräfin von Wartensleben (1844-1905)
= Leopold

Leopold IV Prinz zur Lippe (1871-1949)
x Anna Prinzessin zu Ysenburg-Büdingen (1886-1980)
= Armin

Armin Prinz zur Lippe (1924-2015)
x Traute Becker (1924-2015)
= Stephan

Stephan Prinz zur Lippe (1959)
x Maria Gräfin zu Solms-Laubach (1968)
= Bernhard (1995)

 

[Stefan]

Zum herzlichen Dank! It was an interesting read.
Stephan is a far away relative of the Dutch royal family via Prince Bernhard (father of Princess Beatrix, grandfather of King Willem-Alexander):

Ernst Graf zur Lippe-Biesterfeld (1842-1904) - uncle of Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands
x Caroline Gräfin von Wartensleben (1844-1905)
= Leopold

Leopold IV Prinz zur Lippe (1871-1949)
x Anna Prinzessin zu Ysenburg-Büdingen (1886-1980)
= Armin

Armin Prinz zur Lippe (1924-2015)
x Traute Becker (1924-2015)
= Stephan

Stephan Prinz zur Lippe (1959)
x Maria Gräfin zu Solms-Laubach (1968)
= Bernhard (1995)

Princess Traute ist still alive. Only her husband Prince Armin has died in 2015. Prince Armin and Princess Traute where also invited to the funeral of Prince Bernhard. Don't remember if also Prince Stephan and Princess Maria. At that time Prince Armin also gave an Interview to german TV sharing his memories from the Wedding of Juliana and Bernhard where was a Pageboy.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes the dates with Traute are my wrong ctrl+v.

I will never understand why four Dutch royals went to the memorial mass for Prince Kardam of Tirnovo in Madrid but that no single one of the four born Princesses zur Lippe-Biesterfeld in the Dutch royal family travelled to Detmold to attend the funeral of the Chef from their genealogical fürstliche Haus....

:-(

 

[iceflower]

.

Friedrich Wilhelm Prinz zur Lippe attended the memorial service for German-Israeli singer Abi Ofarim at the New Israelite Cemetry in Munich, Germany, today, May 8:


** Pic **

 

[iceflower]

.

Ilka Princess zur Lippe attended the Boutique Trunk Show & Giorgio's after party in Munich on September 13:


** Pic **

 

[iceflower]

.

Ilka Princess zur Lippe celebrated the opening of the Oktoberfest 2018 in Munich yesterday, September 22:


** Pic **

 

[eya]

Prince Stephan and Princess Maria receive the Order of Merit from the Prime Minister of North Rhine-Westphalia Armin Laschet in the Flora.

https://www.land.nrw/sites/default/...blic/assets/images/_8509425.jpg?itok=g5HuaTAw

https://www.ppe-agency.com/show.php?zoektype=2&search=23-08-2020 Maria

 

[Marengo]

Is it known why they have received the order of merit? Conservation of Detmold castle perhaps?

Edit:

They received the order due to their engagement with the Red Cross.
https://histoiresroyales.fr/prince-stephan-de-lippe-ordre-du-merite-rhenanie-nord-westphalie/

 

[eya]

The Christmas Card from The Prince and Princess of Lippe for Christmas 2020 and New Year 2021.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpFj1vyUwAUpiEh?format=jpg&name=large

 

[iceflower]

Princess Traute, widow of Armin, Prince of Lippe (1949 - 2015) has died aged 98 yesterday, February 25. She died surrounded by family members at Detmold Castle:


** lz article: Traute Prinzessin zur Lippe im Alter von 98 Jahren gestorben **


** westfalen-blatt.de article: Traute Prinzessin zur Lippe wurde 98 Jahre alt **

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Prince Armin was interviewed by Dutch author/historian Annejet van der Zijl for her book 'Bernhard, een vergeten geschiedenis'. I which she focusses on Bernhards life before his marriage and in which she was able to expose a lot of lies (about or by prince Bernhard).

Anyway, for the book she interviewed prince Armin. In the credits she says that the prince read the whole manuscript as it progressed. She also says that the archives of the prince in Schloss Detmold was one of her most important sources.

Prince Armin was also interviewed by Dutch television and he even showed the marriage contract of Juliana and Bernhard, with the seals of both houses.

---
Princess Moretta of Schaumburg Lippe didn't take it very well that the Lippe-Biesterfelds would take over the principality and not she and her husband, this is what she wrote to her brother, Kaiser Wilhelm II on July 21st 1897:

The 'Biests' are dispicable, mean people, who took on princely airs.Can the German princes bear such a swine mess? (...) After this example every Mr. Müller or Miss Schültz can become a prince or regent? What would grandfather and father have said about it?

How were or why were the Biesterfield branch supposed to take over the Principality?

 

[JR76]

How were or why were the Biesterfield branch supposed to take over the Principality?

The Lippe-Biesterfeld line became rulers of the principality when Count Leopold succeed Prince Alexander who died in 1905 and who was the last of the Detmold line.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

The Lippe-Biesterfeld line became rulers of the principality when Count Leopold succeed Prince Alexander who died in 1905 and who was the last of the Detmold line.

I am mainly asking in reference to the Schaumburg Lippes being worried about the Biesterfield branch taking over

 

[JR76]

I am mainly asking in reference to the Schaumburg Lippes being worried about the Biesterfield branch taking over

Given that my reply wasn't satisfactory I apparently don't understand your question, but a lot has been written about the regency of Prince Alexander and the question of the succession of the Principality of Lippe.

 

[Gawin]

I am mainly asking in reference to the Schaumburg Lippes being worried about the Biesterfield branch taking over

Because the Schaumburg-Lippes wanted to take it over themselves.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/HGLippe.htm#1897

 

[Marengo]

Perhaps the confusion started as in my post of 12 years ago I talked about 'the principality'. The one that I was referring to was the principality of Lippe(-Detmold) indeed, not the principality of Schaumburg-Lippe. The latter was never under 'threat' of being taken over by the Biesterfeld branch of the family and remained with the Schaumburg-Lippe's until the revolution of 1918. I must have thought that the context made it clear I was discussing the Biesterfeld branch, which apparently it did not.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Princess Traute, widow of Armin, Prince of Lippe (1949 - 2015) has died aged 98 yesterday, February 25. She died surrounded by family members at Detmold Castle:


** lz article: Traute Prinzessin zur Lippe im Alter von 98 Jahren gestorben **


** westfalen-blatt.de article: Traute Prinzessin zur Lippe wurde 98 Jahre alt **

May the old Fürstin rest in peace.

It would be nice to see Princesses Beatrix, Princess Irene and Princess Margriet zur Lippe-Biesterfeld attending the funeral of Princess Traute in their paternal ancestral homeland.