Battle of Brothers: William, Harry and the Inside Story of A Family in Tumult

[evolvingdoors]

I'd say that if either of them had a big desire to dedicate their lives to doing good, they could do it quite as well as members of the RF working in the UK.

True, but there are many professions and ways to do good (in a real and meaningful way). What if his wife was a health care professional (a doctor, a nurse, a psychologist or a vet) maybe working with Doctors without borders, or someone who fosters children, or runs a shelter, or works for a wildlife conservation in Africa?

That is what I mean.

Think if William would have wanted to leave Royal life, can you see him going about it the same way as Harry while married to Catherine? no, because Catherine would make sure things are done in a respectful and clam manner, no drama.
But any way, this is neither nor there for this thread.

 

[Betsypaige]

I'm not so sure, I personally think Harry would have benefited better with the old Gordonstoun style school (so almost military like), he seem to thrive better in firmly structured institutions where there someone there to provide a positive guidance, vs going to Eton where he was also constantly compared to the much better academically successful William.

I usually agree with you, but we couldn’t be farther apart on this one. Charles had a brutal, absolutely miserable time there - and frankly I’m being mild. I hardly think he got positive guidance at Gordonstoun. There’s no way Charles would ever have sent Harry there. I also think he probably wanted to try and keep the brothers together if possible -which I understand.

 

[Denville]

I usually agree with you, but we couldn’t be farther apart on this one. Charles had a brutal, absolutely miserable time there - and frankly I’m being mild. I hardly think he got positive guidance at Gordonstoun. There’s no way Charles would ever have sent Harry there. I also think he probably wanted to try and keep the brothers together if possible -which I understand.

just because Charles didn't like it doesn't mean it might not have been good for Harry. Eton wasn't the right place for him.. he wasn't academic, he struggled.. and Gordonstoun is not nearly so tough as it was in C's day. Charles didn't seem to be able to rein Harry in, during his teenager years and possibly school might have given him structure and discipline. He claimed that he liked the army... and I think it was good for him.. but possibly learning self discipline at school would have been even better

 

[caethi]

On the armchair psychology theme, there is a counsellor on YouTube Dr. Todd Grande who does educational videos and also videos where he comments on famous people or crimes. In my opinion, he is very credible. He was speculating about Diana, and the challenge of being in the BRF. He suggested that many BRF members are well suited to their roles, but not all. One of his comments really rang true: "If people are given virtually no choice about their role in life, we cannot be surprised if they fail." This may be relevant to Harry.

 

[poppy7]

just because Charles didn't like it doesn't mean it might not have been good for Harry. Eton wasn't the right place for him.. he wasn't academic, he struggled.. and Gordonstoun is not nearly so tough as it was in C's day. Charles didn't seem to be able to rein Harry in, during his teenager years and possibly school might have given him structure and discipline. He claimed that he liked the army... and I think it was good for him.. but possibly learning self discipline at school would have been even better

I agree. Eton was wrong for Harry. But Diana choose it for the boys and her dying really probably cemented him going there. If I remember rightly they had planned on delaying his entrance by a year before she died anyway.

 

[Heavs]

If he'd gone to Gordonstoun we might be here discussing how Harry feels separate from his family because he was sent to a school up in the Highlands whilst William was at a school much closer to Windsor/London, even Highgrove.

Aren't there stories that William spent a lot of time in Harry's room comforting when he was finding it hard to cope with everything, especially Diana? I can't imagine it would have been looked on as a good thing to separate them at the time either by the family, the press and public (even though the last two obviously don't get a say).

Whilst Eton and Gordonstoun are worlds apart it's not like it doesn't have a 7 day a week structure and plenty of opportunity for sports and a Cadet Force for those considering the Armed Services or who would benefit from discipline. It's not like it's Beadales or another very "luvvie" relaxed school. I mean it's harder to get into trouble in London on Short Leave in the Highlands but I imagine there are still ways the students can rebel with alcohol and weed etc if that's their intent.

Also whilst Harry might benefit from structure he also left the army when it came to the "boring" parts which was part of the rules and has currently chosen a very unstructured life, apparently "the rules and regulations" were part of the problem.

 

[poppy7]

If he'd gone to Gordonstoun we might be here discussing how Harry feels separate from his family because he was sent to a school up in the Highlands whilst William was at a school much closer to Windsor/London, even Highgrove.

Aren't there stories that William spent a lot of time in Harry's room comforting when he was finding it hard to cope with everything, especially Diana? I can't imagine it would have been looked on as a good thing to separate them at the time either by the family, the press and public (even though the last two obviously don't get a say).

Whilst Eton and Gordonstoun are worlds apart it's not like it doesn't have a 7 day a week structure and plenty of opportunity for sports and a Cadet Force for those considering the Armed Services or who would benefit from discipline. It's not like it's Beadales or another very "luvvie" relaxed school. I mean it's harder to get into trouble in London on Short Leave in the Highlands but I imagine there are still ways the students can rebel with alcohol and weed etc if that's their intent.

Also whilst Harry might benefit from structure he also left the army when it came to the "boring" parts which was part of the rules and has currently chosen a very unstructured life, apparently "the rules and regulations" were part of the problem.

Harry went to Eton in 1998. He left the army because he didn't want a desk job.

Peter and Zara went to Gordonston and at least Zara was there when Harry started in 1998.

 

[Heavs]

Harry went to Eton in 1998. He left the army because he didn't want a desk job.

Peter and Zara went to Gordonston and at least Zara was there when Harry started in 1998.

I realise he didn't want a desk job, I meant it was part of the rules and discipline as you move up the ranks and he decided he didn't want that, just the active roles. He certainly wouldn't be the only one, one of my cousins did the same thing but if the life suited him that much, he could have stayed, it wouldn't have been permanent.

I know Zara was there albeit at the other end of the school but it's not like having your brother who knows exactly what you're going through.

He could theoretically have moved after GCSEs once it became clear he wasn't academically gifted and a different school might suit better for A levels or his development.

He still has/had a lot quite a few close friends from his school days so they certainly benefitted him in other ways. A lot of people have hang ups from their school as probably both Charles and Harry (and William) do I'm just not necessarily inclined to say it would have "solved the Harry problem" if he'd gone somewhere else.

 

[poppy7]

I realise he didn't want a desk job, I meant it was part of the rules and discipline as you move up the ranks and he decided he didn't want that, just the active roles. He certainly wouldn't be the only one, one of my cousins did the same thing but if the life suited him that much, he could have stayed, it wouldn't have been permanent.

I know Zara was there albeit at the other end of the school but it's not like having your brother who knows exactly what you're going through.

He could theoretically have moved after GCSEs once it became clear he wasn't academically gifted and a different school might suit better for A levels or his development.

He still has/had a lot quite a few close friends from his school days so they certainly benefitted him in other ways. A lot of people have hang ups from their school as probably both Charles and Harry (and William) do I'm just not necessarily inclined to say it would have "solved the Harry problem" if he'd gone somewhere else.

Does Harry have a problem? Or is he just Harry and not really suited to royal life or at least not suited to it once he got married. He had to prioritise what he wanted and how to live his life. We all hqve choices. Does not mean that as a single man he was fine I that life. He has a wife. A kid and they needed to come first. Will Harry be happy now? I happen to think certain people have the gift for that. Maybe he doesn't. Things don't work out for everyone. Despite the stories.

 

[Sandy345]

I agree. Eton was wrong for Harry. But Diana choose it for the boys and her dying really probably cemented him going there. If I remember rightly they had planned on delaying his entrance by a year before she died anyway.

I read that Diana was worried about Harry attending Eton and thought he would be better elsewhere. It was a mutual decision of Charles and Diana. But Diana had some misgivings.

 

[poppy7]

I read that Diana was worried about Harry attending Eton and thought he would be better elsewhere. It was a mutual decision of Charles and Diana. But Diana had some misgivings.

Interesting. I know they had misgivings and sent him a year late. But I always thought it was her families school so he went there. She probably knew he really wasn't academic. Neither was she.

 

[Denville]

Interesting. I know they had misgivings and sent him a year late. But I always thought it was her families school so he went there. She probably knew he really wasn't academic. Neither was she.

Diana wanted the children to go to Eton because her family had alway gone there and it was near London.... but she realised that Harry would not really be up to it academically.. so possibly if the tragedy hadn't happened, Harry would have gone to a different school which would possibly have been a better fit. however with teh loss of his mother, I think they decided to keep the boys together if possible...

 

[Betsypaige]

If he'd gone to Gordonstoun we might be here discussing how Harry feels separate from his family because he was sent to a school up in the Highlands whilst William was at a school much closer to Windsor/London, even Highgrove.

Aren't there stories that William spent a lot of time in Harry's room comforting when he was finding it hard to cope with everything, especially Diana? I can't imagine it would have been looked on as a good thing to separate them at the time either by the family, the press and public (even though the last two obviously don't get a say).

Whilst Eton and Gordonstoun are worlds apart it's not like it doesn't have a 7 day a week structure and plenty of opportunity for sports and a Cadet Force for those considering the Armed Services or who would benefit from discipline. It's not like it's Beadales or another very "luvvie" relaxed school. I mean it's harder to get into trouble in London on Short Leave in the Highlands but I imagine there are still ways the students can rebel with alcohol and weed etc if that's their intent.

Also whilst Harry might benefit from structure he also left the army when it came to the "boring" parts which was part of the rules and has currently chosen a very unstructured life, apparently "the rules and regulations" were part of the problem.

Yes to this.. IMO, it was necessary to keep William and Harry together. Ultimately, at least for me, Harry is responsible for his own behavior - and it's moot as to what kind of schooling he received.

 

[Mirabel]

I usually agree with you, but we couldn’t be farther apart on this one. Charles had a brutal, absolutely miserable time there - and frankly I’m being mild. I hardly think he got positive guidance at Gordonstoun. There’s no way Charles would ever have sent Harry there. I also think he probably wanted to try and keep the brothers together if possible -which I understand.

Charles detested Gordonstoun so much that I can't imagine he ever contemplated sending his own sons there.

Perhaps a different school might have suited Harry better, but at least he didn't experience the level of misery that his father did.

(I read that the deciding factor was when one of Charles' friends told him that all of his life-long friends were made at Eton).

 

[Betsypaige]

Charles detested Gordonstoun so much that I can't imagine he ever contemplated sending his own sons there.

Perhaps a different school might have suited Harry better, but at least he didn't experience the level of misery that his father did.

(I read that the deciding factor was when one of Charles' friends told him that all of his life-long friends were made at Eton).

Exactly. I think Charles and Diana are the right choice - they certainly had good intentions. Even if they thought Harry should be at a different kind of school, it was more important for them that the brothers be together; they wanted that bond to continue, to be strong.

 

[Marengo]

And on that note let's return to the topic of this thread, which is the book by Robert Lacey. Speculation about alternative schooling possibilities for the duke of Sussex is AFAIK not included in his book. Speculative posts about possible learning difficulties of the late Princess of Wales have been deleted.

 

[Betsypaige]

No matter how often Robert Lacey spouts this nonsense, it doesn’t make it true. He’s going to need to explain how a personal rift between W and H approaches the Abdication crisis - it’s utter nonsense - or even Diana’s death. Good lord, “potential tragedy” ? The man is a drama queen ...

“Fundamental to the whole saga is the clash of love versus duty,” Lacey explained, adding that the princes could face “potential tragedy” if they’re not able to set their differences aside.
“This compares with Edward VIII’s abdication in 1936 and the death of Princess Diana in 1997,” he said. “It’s of that scale. And it’s a challenge that’s yet to be resolved.”

https://www.nydailynews.com/snyde/n...0201007-fj2csnsmnfbdtnzzhaheuyjomq-story.html

 

[poppy7]

No matter how often Robert Lacey spouts this nonsense, it doesn’t make it true. He’s going to need to explain how a personal rift between W and H approaches the Abdication crisis - it’s utter nonsense - or even Diana’s death. Good lord, “potential tragedy” ? The man is a drama queen ...





https://www.nydailynews.com/snyde/n...0201007-fj2csnsmnfbdtnzzhaheuyjomq-story.html

He is selling a book for money. No more. No less.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

And of course when Diana died, Charles told William first because he wanted the two of them to tell Harry together. So even back then there is a sense of Charles relying on William in regards to Harry.

I was not aware that Charles, Harry and/or William have ever discussed what transpired among the three of them the night Diana died. I think Harry has stated that he understood that it was a difficult for Charles to tell them.

Both Charles and Diana were imperfect parents (I don't claim perfection either). Diana leaned too much on William during the divorce and was too public in her complaints about their father. Charles was too worried that they wouldn't like him if he provided unpopular guidance when they were in their teens.

For the most part, both men are doing well. William has a beautiful family, he works hard and wants to help others. People may not like the path Harry has taken but, by all accounts, he is not mean spirited or abusive, he is a devoted family man, and he is also interested in helping others. He's not perfect, none of us are.

I think it is hard to judge the true state of their relationship given the current crisis. None of us knows whether Harry and Meghan would have spent time in the UK - or were planning to go over for Christmas. I am hoping that the undeniable rift has healed and that the brothers and their families develop a stronger loving relationship.

 

[Denville]

I was not aware that Charles, Harry and/or William have ever discussed what transpired among the three of them the night Diana died. I think Harry has stated that he understood that it was a difficult for Charles to tell them.

Both Charles and Diana were imperfect parents (I don't claim perfection either). Diana leaned too much on William during the divorce and was too public in her complaints about their father. Charles was too worried that they wouldn't like him if he provided unpopular guidance when they were in their teens.

For the most part, both men are doing well. William has a beautiful family, he works hard and wants to help others. People may not like the path Harry has taken but, by all accounts, he is not mean spirited or abusive, he is a devoted family man, and he is also interested in helping others. He's not perfect, none of us are.

I think it is hard to judge the true state of their relationship given the current crisis. None of us knows whether Harry and Meghan would have spent time in the UK - or were planning to go over for Christmas. I am hoping that the undeniable rift has healed and that the brothers and their families develop a stronger loving relationship.

Do you really think the rift's likely to heal, hte more Harry moves away from what the RF would considier normal royal life? William clearly felt in March that Harry and Meg were letting him down, and he was not too happy.. I dotn think anything's happened in the past few months to make him soften on that...

 

[Betsypaige]

He is selling a book for money. No more. No less.

As I’ve said before...so, IMO, he’s no different than Scobie/Durand or any other Royals trash reporter. He has this wonderful reputation, which has been earned, but as far as I’m concerned, he’s thrown that all away.

 

[TLLK]

As I’ve said before...so, IMO, he’s no different than Scobie/Durand or any other Royals trash reporter. He has this wonderful reputation, which has been earned, but as far as I’m concerned, he’s thrown that all away.

Which is a real shame that he has chosen this route of rehashing old stories about the Wales family's history and what has reportedly happened between the brothers.

 

[Denville]

As I’ve said before...so, IMO, he’s no different than Scobie/Durand or any other Royals trash reporter. He has this wonderful reputation, which has been earned, but as far as I’m concerned, he’s thrown that all away.

royal reportage isn't considered all that high end a job, and most royals dont get a serious writer as biographer till they get older or have a long career to write about...

 

[Betsypaige]

I was not aware that Charles, Harry and/or William have ever discussed what transpired among the three of them the night Diana died. I think Harry has stated that he understood that it was a difficult for Charles to tell them.

Both Charles and Diana were imperfect parents (I don't claim perfection either). Diana leaned too much on William during the divorce and was too public in her complaints about their father. Charles was too worried that they wouldn't like him if he provided unpopular guidance when they were in their teens.

For the most part, both men are doing well. William has a beautiful family, he works hard and wants to help others. People may not like the path Harry has taken but, by all accounts, he is not mean spirited or abusive, he is a devoted family man, and he is also interested in helping others. He's not perfect, none of us are.

I think it is hard to judge the true state of their relationship given the current crisis. None of us knows whether Harry and Meghan would have spent time in the UK - or were planning to go over for Christmas. I am hoping that the undeniable rift has healed and that the brothers and their families develop a stronger loving relationship.

I agree with this. I think it’s a credit to Charles and Diana, flaws and all (we all have them), that William and Harry have turned out to be who they are. For all my complaints about Harry, I agree - he’s not a mean person, at all. My take on him all along has been that he’s been behaving badly, not that he’s a bad person.

From what I’ve read, the brothers are talking, have been ever since Charles was sick. They may not be close, but it’s a start. I’ve always believed that it’s way too early to give up on them reconciling ...I hope they do.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Do you really think the rift's likely to heal, hte more Harry moves away from what the RF would considier normal royal life? William clearly felt in March that Harry and Meg were letting him down, and he was not too happy.. I dotn think anything's happened in the past few months to make him soften on that...

It was obvious that they were in a bad place in March but people do resolve their differences. I live away from most of my family and my sisters and I sometimes disagree. But we cool off, we reflect on our own mistakes or the other person apologizes.

Perhaps William will never really understand why Harry made the decisions he has, but it is also possible that William understands better than anyone else. I think the true state of the relationship will be more apparent after travel resumes. I doubt things will be perfect, I don't think their relationship was ever perfect but, if they want to, I think they can get back to being on good terms.

 

[Osipi]

Do you really think the rift's likely to heal, hte more Harry moves away from what the RF would considier normal royal life? William clearly felt in March that Harry and Meg were letting him down, and he was not too happy.. I dotn think anything's happened in the past few months to make him soften on that...

As sensible adults, "normal royal life" is the family business and "work" that is totally separated in their minds from "normal family life". Like a lot of us, the way the Sussexes left had a lot to be desired in their method and of course their loss to the "Firm" is a disappointment. However, I don't see it remaining a family feud for the rest of their lives.

The "Firm" will adapt to the loss and William and Harry will always be brothers.

 

[Denville]

As sensible adults, "normal royal life" is the family business and "work" that is totally separated in their minds from "normal family life". Like a lot of us, the way the Sussexes left had a lot to be desired in their method and of course their loss to the "Firm" is a disappointment. However, I don't see it remaining a family feud for the rest of their lives.

The "Firm" will adapt to the loss and William and Harry will always be brothers.

They'll adapt as they have no choice.. and I dont suppose the 2 will be on bad terms for the rest of their life.. but IMO William was really annoyed by Harry's or Meg's behaviour, he must have been to the point of being cool to him in public.. and in the past months, Will has been trying to fly the flag for the RF here in very bizarre circumstances, and keep things going... and seeing his father ill and his grandmother now stuck in isolation for a long time...while Harry seems to be following Meghan into US politics..so no I dont think that things are likely to improve between them just yet...

 

[Betsypaige]

Which is a real shame that he has chosen this route of rehashing old stories about the Wales family's history and what has reportedly happened between the brothers.

I think Lacey believed he was revealing new information - or at least more detailed information, from different sources. It turns out that it’s the same old, same old, except he’s offering up psychobabble to make this rift an “OMG, this is the same as the Abdication crisis; the BRF is a mess, and if W and H don’t sort this out, the monarchy is in trouble”. It’s laughable. No reputable historian would take him seriously after this.

 

[Hallo girl]

They'll adapt as they have no choice.. and I dont suppose the 2 will be on bad terms for the rest of their life.. but IMO William was really annoyed by Harry's or Meg's behaviour, he must have been to the point of being cool to him in public.. and in the past months, Will has been trying to fly the flag for the RF here in very bizarre circumstances, and keep things going... and seeing his father ill and his grandmother now stuck in isolation for a long time...while Harry seems to be following Meghan into US politics..so no I dont think that things are likely to improve between them just yet...

I agree,something took place or was said just prior to the commonwealth service that angered both william and kate. They did not have the time or the opportunity to put on the public face whatever happened it was still raw. Harry and Meghan on the other hand were initially showing a face for public consumption although by the end Harry's face was like thunder.
Time is a healer but I remember being really shocked watching the tv that day because the royals usually do public faces very well indeed.

 

[Denville]

I agree,something took place or was said just prior to the commonwealth service that angered both william and kate. They did not have the time or the opportunity to put on the public face whatever happened it was still raw. Harry and Meghan on the other hand were initially showing a face for public consumption although by the end Harry's face was like thunder.
Time is a healer but I remember being really shocked watching the tv that day because the royals usually do public faces very well indeed.

As I recall Harry didn't look too cheery either, while Meghan was smiling away.. gamely. I expect theylll get over it eventually but right now, no...