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  #81  
Old 11-28-2017, 11:24 PM
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I think its oversimplifying Christianity to argue that all the various denominations are essentially the same. Christians of all denominations would not agree with that assessment. I agree that it’s hypocritical of every all involved but it’s been going on for centuries and no church has tried to change it. Meghan has decided to join so I’m just going to hope and assume it’s sincere. If her conversion is not, well, that’s between her and God.
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  #82  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:05 AM
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Converting Is she Jewish, budhist or some other religion I am not aware of

She isn't converting. Converting means she is a member of another faith and is changing churches. She is simply being baptized.

You don't need to be baptized to be Christian. As we know both of her parents are protestant, and it seems that they are different branches. We know her father is Episcopalian. If her parents are non-practicing, or even 'holiday church goers', they may not have seen the need to baptize her. There would have been the question of which church to baptize her in. I grew up in a home with an United mother and Roman Catholic father. My sister and I were only baptized due to pressure from our grandparents (the catholic ones). A priest refused to baptize my sister as my mother was not catholic, and my parents only went on holidays. Fortunately the priest who married them was willing to baptize her (I was baptized in my grandparent's church by their personal priest). My sister and I never had communion, confession, confirmation, any of that. We only went to church when we visited our grandparents. I have become an active church attendee in my adult life and have taken the sacraments as an adult.

We do know that she grew up in Christian homes with holidays like Christmas and easter. We know she knows prayers and Jesus, because she went to Catholic school. Even if you aren't Catholic you can attend the school but you are required to take religious classes and take part in things. So she isn't going blindly into being baptized.

Hopefully she will be spending the next months, when she isn't traveling with Harry, to take courses. As part of baptism and confirmation that is required. It will give her a better understanding of what she is entering. At least she has a leg up, not like converting from a non Christian religion. And if she attended Episcopalian church at all with dad, even on holidays, she will have some sense as the Episcopal church is the American branch of the Anglican church.
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  #83  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:13 AM
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Y'know, in all this discussion, its occurred to me that perhaps the only thing of importance when it comes to the baptism, confirmation and whatever is the One that just is happy that Meghan is a child of His and their relationship, however that may be, is what truly matters and is personal.
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  #84  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Converting Is she Jewish, budhist or some other religion I am not aware of

She isn't converting. Converting means she is a member of another faith and is changing churches. She is simply being baptized.

You don't need to be baptized to be Christian.
That’s not necessarily accurate and highly dependent on who you’re talking to and their personal beliefs. The most of the various churches and denominations do not hold those opinions. I don’t want the thread to veer off anymore than it has and get into religious discussions.
  #85  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna Catherine View Post
Thatís not necessarily accurate and highly dependent on who youíre talking to and their personal beliefs. The most of the various churches and denominations do not hold those opinions. I donít want the thread to veer off anymore than it has and get into religious discussions.
I have attended services in Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, United and Alliance churches. Never once was I asked for my baptism card, or if I was even a member of their church. Yes, they encourage baptism, an official welcome into the church. In the Catholic church you are required to be baptized and go through the sacraments to say take communion, but not to attend. But perhaps you have come across some very close minded branches who only welcome baptized people. Happy I haven't had that experience in churches.

I don't recall anything in the bible where Jesus said, 'you have to be baptized to eat with me, believe in me, or hear me speak'. Yes he encouraged it, but didn't require it.

The definition of being Christian is a belief in Christ. To judge Meghan as being not a good enough Christian, is pretty un-christianly. We have no idea how deep her beliefs are. What we do know is she has CHOSEN to be baptized end enter into the faith of her husband's family. It isn't required, as long as her kids are raised in the COE they will be in line.
  #86  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
I have attended services in Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, United and Alliance churches. Never once was I asked for my baptism card, or if I was even a member of their church. Yes, they encourage baptism, an official welcome into the church. In the Catholic church you are required to be baptized and go through the sacraments to say take communion, but not to attend. But perhaps you have come across some very close minded branches who only welcome baptized people. Happy I haven't had that experience in churches.

I don't recall anything in the bible where Jesus said, 'you have to be baptized to eat with me, believe in me, or hear me speak'. Yes he encouraged it, but didn't require it.

The definition of being Christian is a belief in Christ. To judge Meghan as being not a good enough Christian, is pretty un-christianly. We have no idea how deep her beliefs are. What we do know is she has CHOSEN to be baptized end enter into the faith of her husband's family. It isn't required, as long as her kids are raised in the COE they will be in line.
Where did I say anything about a Ďbaptism cardí?! Really? Of course, you can attend services but joining a church is different. Iím not judging anyone. I was stating a fact about various denominations. If thatís what you got out of my posts, you having been really reading them. Anyway, this thread isnít about Christianity or Christian belief or religion. I think we should move on.
  #87  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
At the core of Christianity is the Christos, Love. One does not have to utter the name of the teacher/rabbi Jesus. That is materialistic. Physical baptism is merely the indication of the baptism of the spirit. No 'church' governs that (and never has).
I work for a Christian organization that has about 40 evangelical Christian denominations affiliated with it, along with more than 60 Christian organizations, including World Vision Canada. I'm not aware that any of those denominations or organizations would describe Christianity this way, and I'd be very surprised if any of them did. To be a Christian means to be a follower of Jesus Christ, who commanded his followers to baptize those in all nations. So yes, baptism, and the name of Jesus, are fundamental to Christianity.

(Mainline Christian denominations such as Anglican or the United Church, Methodist, etc. may have a different way of articulating Christianity...I'm not so familiar with what they believe.)
  #88  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna Catherine View Post
Where did I say anything about a ‘baptism card’?! Really? Of course, you can attend services but joining a church is different. I’m not judging anyone. I was stating a fact about various denominations. If that’s what you got out of my posts, you having been really reading them. Anyway, this thread isn’t about Christianity or Christian belief or religion. I think we should move on.
We are discussing Meghan and if she is a Christian or not. I have read a number of posts calling her a hypocrite.

My point was you can be a Christian without being baptized. You can attend church, believe in Jesus, celebrate the Christian holidays without baptism. Yes to 'officially join a church' you would be baptized. Baptism is official entrance.

Just because Meghan is not baptized doesn't make her I don't know what people are accusing her of....pagan?atheist?agnostic?.

Simple point her Choosing to officially join the Church of England is not hypocritical, shallow or empty as posters have suggested. Or we don't know, as we have no idea Meghan's intentions in this.

Quote:
I work for a Christian organization that has about 40 evangelical Christian denominations affiliated with it, along with more than 60 Christian organizations, including World Vision Canada. I'm not aware that any of those denominations or organizations would describe Christianity this way, and I'd be very surprised if any of them did. To be a Christian means to be a follower of Jesus Christ, who commanded his followers to baptize those in all nations. So yes, baptism, and the name of Jesus, are fundamental to Christianity.
That may be the issue. Evangelical. Evangelicals and their call to 'prosteltize and convert' people.

The Anglican, Catholic and other non-evangelical churches approach religion with a different approach. Meghan is joining the COE (Anglican), which has a different outlook on things.
  #89  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
We are discussing Meghan and if she is a Christian or not. I have read a number of posts calling her a hypocrite.

My point was you can be a Christian without being baptized. You can attend church, believe in Jesus, celebrate the Christian holidays without baptism. Yes to 'officially join a church' you would be baptized. Baptism is official entrance.

Just because Meghan is not baptized doesn't make her I don't know what people are accusing her of....pagan?atheist?agnostic?.

Simple point her Choosing to officially join the Church of England is not hypocritical, shallow or empty as posters have suggested. Or we don't know, as we have no idea Meghan's intentions in this.



That may be the issue. Evangelical. Evangelicals and their call to 'prosteltize and convert' people.

The Anglican, Catholic and other non-evangelical churches approach religion with a different approach. Meghan is joining the COE (Anglican), which has a different outlook on things.
The discussion is about Meghan being baptized and confirmed into the Church of England and various posters’ reactions to that decision. It has never been about whether Meghan is a Christian or not.

Evangelicals are a wide ranging group. The beliefs mentioned by the previous poster are held by the denominations you mentioned hence Meghan’s baptism and confirmation. It’s lovely that she desires to join the Church of England and is going through the sacraments.
  #90  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:59 AM
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Actually a number of posters have suggested she needs to 'convert to christianity'. That would suggest she wasn't Christian.

Anglicans are not evangelical (there is a small branch of evangelical Anglicans). The whole focus on 'being born again' and conversion is not a guiding point to Anglicans and similar churches.
  #91  
Old 11-29-2017, 01:03 AM
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I was baptised and then confirmed (in my early teens) into the C-of -E. Before confirmation I was unable to take the sacrament. It may well be that Meghan doesn't want to be an outsider in the ranks of the BRF, wants to take sacrament with Harry and the rest of his family, and be at one with them. There are possible future children to consider as well. So it might be a partly pragmatic decision on Meghan's part. If however, after Meghan is instructed in the tenets of the Anglican religion and still wishes to be baptised and those instructing her are convinced of her sincerity, belief in the Church's teachings and her religious faith, then surely that can only be to the good,
  #92  
Old 11-29-2017, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I was baptised and then confirmed (in my early teens) into the C-of -E. Before confirmation I was unable to take the sacrement. It may well be that Meghan doesn't want to be an outsider in the ranks of the BRF, wants to take sacrement with Harry and the rest of his family, and be at one with them. There are possible future children to consider as well. So it might be a partly pragmatic decision on Meghan's part. If however, after Meghan is instructed in the tenets of the Anglican religion and still wishes to be baptised and those instructing her are convinced of her sincerity and religious faith, then surely that can only be to the good,
Yes Especially if and when they have children, who will be raised in the faith. And as you said she will be expected to attend services and such with the family. Perhaps she doesn't want to feel set apart, not being able to take part in certain aspects with the others.
  #93  
Old 11-29-2017, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
At the core of Christianity is the Christos, Love. One does not have to utter the name of the teacher/rabbi Jesus. That is materialistic.
Sorry, but you are quite wrong on that definition. Christianity solely centers around Jesus Christ and worship of him and his divinity. "Christos" is a Greek word that translates as "to anoint". That is from a translation of a Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (mashiyach), which also means "anointed". It's where we also get the word Messiah to refer to Jesus. A person very much has to utter the name of Jesus in order to profess belief in the faith. Otherwise, it's not Christianity, it's just a generic religion. Read Romans 10:9.

If you're referring to love, perhaps you meant the Greek word "agape", which is defined as a holy, all-encompassing kind of love from us to God and from God to us.
  #94  
Old 11-29-2017, 01:30 AM
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I think its heart warming for Meghan to be going through this as an adult and of her own free will. Many times people don't give a lot of serious thought to what they believe or think about practicing and strengthening their spirituality because, frankly, life gets in the way. Coming into a marriage and making a solemn vow with another person and committing oneself body, mind and spirit to another takes some serious thought.

It seems to me that not only is Meghan embracing Harry's lifestyle and is willing to join him side by side in the family "Firm", but she's also taking these vows serious enough to want to fully embrace and worship side by side with her husband, his family and eventually her own family. I don't think she's going into any of this lightly but rather going into it very seriously with her eyes wide open. Love does conquer all.
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  #95  
Old 11-29-2017, 07:09 AM
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On Meghan's decision to be baptised and confirmed, it's important to note the role of the individual parish priest in the decision.

When a couple (who may not be regular church goers) ask to be married according to the Anglican Rite, the General Synod has allowed a certain degree of autonomy to the celebrant of the sacrament which you won't find in the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Churches. Some parish priests will marry a couple in an Anglican church if only one of them is baptised and confirmed, others will insist both are baptised, some may insist that both must be baptised and confirmed. And some will marry a couple if they make a commitment to attend church services for 8-12 weeks before their wedding even if they haven't been baptised. The latter is rare but it is an option open to Anglican clergy.

Westminster Abbey and St George's Chapel are royal peculiars but even as Head of the Church, the Queen cannot insist that her Bishops and Archbishops give permission for things that other clergy may refuse (and vice versa). Remember that the Duchess of Cambridge was confirmed before her marriage and so I imagine that the celebrant (the Archbishop of Canterbury) personally requires a couple to be baptised and confirmed before he will perform their wedding ceremony according to the Anglican Rite.

It's also worth noting that Meghan may already be baptised but that her baptism isn't recognised by the General Synod. Whilst the Anglican Church recognises most baptisms, it doesn't apply to every denomination and so this may have been a factor in her decision too. Having said all that, despite the Church of England being quite an insignificant body in Britain today, it remains the state church and Meghan will be expected to worship in the Anglican tradition for the rest of her life. It is therefore sensible that she should want to become a full member of that communion even if it isn't required by the Archbishop of Canterbury as a parish priest or celebrant. We know that some exceptions have been made in the past (Princess Marina) but in this instance, I believe that it's a pragmatic decision on Meghan's part whether she fully embraces Anglicanism or not.

Also, there is no formal catechesis in the Anglican communion as the Church of England has no catechism or clearly defined structure for the reception of new members. It has guidelines and conventions but again, there is more freedom for the individual cleric to interpret this for his congregation than say the Roman Catholic Church would. For this reason, it isn't seen as 'conversion' to Anglicanism but as 'reception' into the Church if one already identifies as a Christian. Roman Catholicism applies the same terminology but has a far more formal structure for those seeking reception into the church. Some Anglican churches will offer communion to anyone who wishes to receive it, some may even offer baptism at Easter or Pentecost to anybody who wants to be baptised without requiring any formal education in the faith. At the same time, Anglo-Catholic churches (parishes in communion with the Church of England but which adopt parts of the Roman Rite) would insist on a more formal education process.

So this is probably half requirement, half personal choice.
  #96  
Old 11-29-2017, 07:40 AM
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"We know that some exceptions have been made in the past (Princess Marina)"

Did Princess Marina remain a Greek Orthodox Christian?
  #97  
Old 11-29-2017, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Biri View Post
"We know that some exceptions have been made in the past (Princess Marina)"

Did Princess Marina remain a Greek Orthodox Christian?
At the wedding of the Duke of Kent and Princess Marina in 1934, two ceremonies were performed; one according to the Anglican Rite and another according to the rites of the Greek Orthodox Church. The Church of England would have recognised Marina's baptism and confirmation into the Greek Orthodox Church as being valid and therefore not an obstacle to a church wedding according to the Anglican Rite.

Princess Marina attended both Anglican and Greek Orthodox churches throughout her life and her funeral service was conducted jointly by the Archbishop of Canterbury and Archimandrite Gregory Theodorus of the Greek Orthodox Church. Again, this would have been regarded as perfectly valid by the Anglican Church which is a more ecumenical body than say the Roman Catholic Church.
  #98  
Old 11-29-2017, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Do any of you here think other than the Queen and DoE, that most of the BRF take their faith seriously?

We all see them on the Church walk at the obvious holidays. Do any of them, other than the Queen, actually attend services on a regular basis?


LaRae
I think that Charles does, certainly. and the older royals.. not sure about Harry.
  #99  
Old 11-29-2017, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post

And btw, can something explain to me what is the difference between Anglican and Protestant in terms of actual beliefs? If there are fundamental religious belief change, what's the problem. Why can't she decide to join the Church of England and worship there?
Anglicanism is a branch of Protestantism actually, although some Protestants do not consider the Anglican Church a truly Reformed church.

The spectrum of beliefs in the Anglican Communion is very broad and not at all uniform, ranging from the Anglo-Catholic branch, which seeks a rapprochment with the Roman Catholic doctrine, to the so-called Evangelical branch, which is more traditionally Protestant. Generally speaking though, the historic Anglican doctrine documents are heavily influenced by Calvinism and are therefore distinctively Protestant, but the rites and the order of service in the church are more similar to Catholic rites than in other Protestant denominations. In fact, especially after the Catholic church switched to mass in vernacular languages in the 1960s, an Anglican Sunday eucharist service is only subtly different from an English-language Sunday mass. Furthermore, Anglican churches are also episcopal churches with ordained bishops, whom the Anglicans claim to be in apostolic succession although that claim is rejected by the Roman Catholic church, which does not recognize the validity of Anglican ordinations.

The point about Meghan though is that she is not a Protestant who is converting to Anglicanism, as Mary, who was Presbyterian, and Henrik or Marie, who were Catholic, converted to Lutheranism when they joined the Danish royal family. Instead, Meghan is a non-Christian (she was never baptized) who is converting to Christianity and joining the Anglican branch of Christianity in the process, which is a much bigger deal.

Besides, what seems to raise suspicions about the hypocrisy of royals when it comes to religion is that they all seem to convert when joining a Royal Family who is associated with a different denomination, such as the Danish cases I mentioned above, or Queen Sofia becoming Catholic when she married Juan Carlos, or Anne-Marie becoming Greek Orthodox, etc etc The exception seems to be MŠxima, who didn't convert to the Dutch Reformed faith and remained Catholic after marrying W-A, which I see as a plus for her.
  #100  
Old 11-29-2017, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by COESpiral View Post
Sorry, but you are quite wrong on that definition. Christianity solely centers around Jesus Christ and worship of him and his divinity. "Christos" is a Greek word that translates as "to anoint". That is from a translation of a Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (mashiyach), which also means "anointed". It's where we also get the word Messiah to refer to Jesus. A person very
If you're referring to love, perhaps you meant the Greek word "agape", which is defined as a holy, all-encompassing kind of love from us to God and from God to us.
True, Christos or the Christ is a Greek word which means the anointed one. it is certainly not "love" and Jesus is at the cenetre of Christianity...
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