Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Lady Nimue]

Is that automatic or do you need to apply for American citizenship if one of your parents is a US citizen and you are born on foreign soil?

It's automatic, I'm pretty sure, given friends of mine.

P.S. There may be an age when one declares oneself, and it may also have to do with the country (Canada vs England, or France, or Germany, etc).

 

[wyevale]

Exquisitely put [as ever] Osipi.

 

[jacqui24]

I think once this dies down and things get into a routine, it'll likely be a quiet event by the time she actually gets her British citizenship. I still think eventually she'll renounce, but it might not be made a big deal by the palace. Can you imagine the optics of a working member of the royal family whose security is paid for by British taxpayer and lives on palace grounds rent free to be paying US tax? I think even the royalists would have a problem with it.

 

[Sunnystar]

I suspect that Meghan is much like my nieces and nephew who have all been exposed to Christian teachings, even attended Sunday School periodically, as children, and certainly have an awareness of what being a Christian means - ie taking Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. But none of them have taken that critical step of accepting Jesus Christ. I have cousins who were raised similarly and it was only when they married and started having kids that they accepted Jesus Christ. I have an aunt (same age as Prince Charles) who was drifted far from her religious upbringing in her twenties and then, when she decided she wanted kids, found her way back to Christ. I find it entirely plausible that Meghan has chosen to take this very personal step because she wants a more personal faith experience for her children than she has had to date. Maybe she wouldn't have chosen the Anglican Church if she wasn't marrying Harry. We know her dad is Episcopalian but I don't think we have yet heard what Protestant denomination her mom is, so maybe she would have chosen her mom's denomination instead. There is, IMO, at least a 33% chance she would have chosen Anglican/Episcopalian. I just can't get myself all worked up over this because, when it comes right down to it, I can't help but rejoice that Meghan had chosen to accept Jesus Christ into her life. (And we really don't have any idea how religious or non-religious Harry is, so again, who are we to judge?)

 

[Princess Squirrel]

Please no more talk of religion! Both my hubby and I are baptised but not confirmed. But were we joining the most high profile family in the country, we would probably get confirmed. It wouldn't make us better believers, just put us on a par with the rest of the family. Besides it's not very Christian in itself to judge others badly who are not 'bad' in any way!

 

[Somebody]

It's automatic, I'm pretty sure, given friends of mine.

P.S. There may be an age when one declares oneself, and it may also have to do with the country (Canada vs England, or France, or Germany, etc).

Thanks! Looked it up on a government website to learn more about the specifics and it seems that a child of Meghan and Harry would qualify as Meghan lived at least 5 years in the States:

Birth Abroad in Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen and an Alien

A person born abroad in wedlock to a U.S. citizen and an alien acquires U.S. citizenship at birth if the U.S. citizen parent has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions prior to the person’s birth for the period required by the statute in effect when the person was born (INA 301(g), formerly INA 301(a)(7).) For birth on or after November 14, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for five years prior to the person’s birth, at least two of which were after the age of fourteen. (...) The U.S. citizen parent must be the genetic or the gestational parent and the legal parent of the child under local law at the time and place of the child’s birth to transmit U.S. citizenship.

Nonetheless, they could still decide not to apply for a US passport - they might not be able to renounce citizenship; that might be something that the child has to do for him/herself when becoming of age (if he/she wants to).

 

[Alliec76]

I think once this dies down and things get into a routine, it'll likely be a quiet event by the time she actually gets her British citizenship. I still think eventually she'll renounce, but it might not be made a big deal by the palace. Can you imagine the optics of a working member of the royal family whose security is paid for by British taxpayer and lives on palace grounds rent free to be paying US tax? I think even the royalists would have a problem with it.

But that will be years down the road. They've been very clear she will be following normal protocol in applying for British citizenship. So it's 3 years at least. I just read an article explaining that she will be complying with US, Canadian and UK tax laws. I don't see them fast tracking her citizenship after they went out of their way to say she will be going about the process the same as anyone else. Now when she does get her UK citizenship she may very well give up her US citizenship. But for a few years at least she will be paying US taxes. There is no way around it.

 

[jacqui24]

But that will be years down the road. They've been very clear she will be following normal protocol in applying for British citizenship. So it's 3 years at least. I just read an article explaining that she will be complying with US, Canadian and UK tax laws. I don't see them fast tracking her citizenship after they went out of their way to say she will be going about the process the same as anyone else. Now when she does get her UK citizenship she may very well give up her US citizenship. But for a few years at least she will be paying US taxes. There is no way around it.

She has no obligation to Canadian tax law after this year. She is no longer working there and she is unlikely to be a legal resident. Probably just on work visa.

 

[Alliec76]

She has no obligation to Canadian tax law after this year. She is no longer working there and she is unlikely to be a legal resident. Probably just on work visa.

True. I was just stating what they said in the article, but yes after this year, she wouldn't need to pay any taxes in Canada. Not sure why they included that. But she will have to pay US taxes for a few years at least.

 

[jacqui24]

True. I was just stating what they said in the article, but yes after this year, she wouldn't need to pay any taxes in Canada. Not sure why they included that. But she will have to pay US taxes for a few years at least.

What's worse is that she will have to file FBAR. It's a disclosure form that IRS requires US persons to disclose any financial interest they have in a foreign account. Their names doesn't even have to be on it, it's required if they have signing authority. That's in addition to the annual tax return filing.

 

[Alliec76]

What's worse is that she will have to file FBAR. It's a disclosure form that IRS requires US persons to disclose any financial interest they have in a foreign account. Their names doesn't even have to be on it, it's required if they have signing authority. That's in addition to the annual tax return filing.

That certainly sounds like a headache. But I do think in the current climate, people will respect her for following the same laws and protocols as any other person seeking UK citizenship. They may not like her paying US taxes with their tax money (although my guess is she'll use her own money), but I think they'd like it less if she jumped the line, when the immigration issue is so hotly contested right now in the UK (and the US as well). The royal family can't be political, but they certainly have to be aware of the political climate they are operating in. And it is tense all over right now.

 

[Spheno]

"U.S. citizens are subject to U.S. tax obligations regardless of their country of residence," Peter Spiro, a Temple University law professor and the author of “At Home in Two Countries: The Past and Future of Dual Citizenship," wrote in an email to The Washington Post. "A member of the royal family would be treated just like anyone else."
[...]
For Prince Harry, the issue isn't that he will suddenly end up paying U.S. income tax, but rather that Markle's American citizenship could open up the secretive finances of the royal family to outside scrutiny. If she remains a U.S. citizen, Markle will have to file her taxes to the IRS every year.
This sharing of financial information with the U.S. government would probably be undesirable for the royal family, which has long preferred that its finances remain opaque.
[...]
Royal children would complicated matters even further. "Parents cannot elect to have a child lose his or her U.S. citizenship, so the children will be U.S. citizens (and therefore, U.S. taxpayers) unless they decide to give it up when they reach the age of majority," said Kristin Konschnik, a lawyer with London-based Butler Snow law firm.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-british-royal-family/?utm_term=.fb7af36902ac

 

[jacqui24]

For Prince Harry, the issue isn't that he will suddenly end up paying U.S. income tax, but rather that Markle's American citizenship could open up the secretive finances of the royal family to outside scrutiny. If she remains a U.S. citizen, Markle will have to file her taxes to the IRS every year.
This sharing of financial information with the U.S. government would probably be undesirable for the royal family, which has long preferred that its finances remain opaque.

I do want to point out something here. The IRS keeps confidentiality on all taxpayers. The tax returns will not come out to the public. However, the concern is probably over US government having access to information on some of the BRF's finances.

 

[Zonk]

But as a working royal who is not working (for a paycheck), can't she just report zero income to the IRS?

 

[tihkon2]

But as a working royal who is not working (for a paycheck), can't she just report zero income to the IRS?

I think you're correct. Prince Harry receives money from The Duchy of Cornwall, not from taxpayers. So I guess when gowns and jewels are given to Meghan, they can be declared as gifts.

 

[jacqui24]

I think you're correct. Prince Harry receives money from The Duchy of Cornwall, not from taxpayers. So I guess when gowns and jewels are given to Meghan, they can be declared as gifts.

Reimbursement for royal duties aren't considered income. Personal gifts from foreigners are not subject to US gift tax. Only gifts from any US individual over $14k are subject to tax, but the tax burden on the person giving the gift.

However, it is likely they have personal wealth that is accruing interest at this point. If any future children is set up with a trust, they'll have to file US tax returns as well. Just because they are underage, doesn't mean they don't have to file tax return. If investment income reach over a certain limit (and it is a very small limit, in thousands), they will have to file tax returns as well. They won't be able to renounce US citizenship until they reach the age of majority either whereas Meghan can renounce whenever she received British citizenship. This has a potential to be a big headache.

But as a working royal who is not working (for a paycheck), can't she just report zero income to the IRS?

It's not as simple as that. I would still expect her and Harry to have personal investment income. She won't have to report gifts from foreign individuals, however FBAR becomes an issues for financial assets. FBAR is based on asset, not just income. Not only does that include her assets, but if they have joint accounts, those would need to be declared as well. I think the concern here is that the members of British royal family will have to disclose their assets to US government that might make people uncomfortable.

 

[Zonk]

Well, one thing is for certain. She will have the best experts consulting her on what to do and what not to do.

 

[jacqui24]

I think you're correct. Prince Harry receives money from The Duchy of Cornwall, not from taxpayers. So I guess when gowns and jewels are given to Meghan, they can be declared as gifts.

This is more like reimbursement of business expense if we think about it. It's not for her personal use, but use when she's conducting official business. It'd be a wash of income and expense.

 

[wyevale]

This entire 'can of worms' will be avoided if the Lady simply retains her US citizenship until her UK citizenship is granted, and then gives up her US passport.

I hear some howling 'but she IS American'... YES, the World knows this, and it will always know that that was where she was born, and brought up...

 

[loonytick]

Surely they can keep their finances separate after marriage until she's able to only be a UK citizen, can't they?

 

[MichelleQ2]

Does anyone know how Princess Grace handled this situation?

 

[loonytick]

Does anyone know how Princess Grace handled this situation?

Princess Grace reportedly paid a $2 million dowry, so even before you start looking at taxes it was a very different financial situation.

 

[jacqui24]

Does anyone know how Princess Grace handled this situation?

Different time. Different tax laws. Prince Albert did renounce his US citizenship when he was 21 I believe.

This entire 'can of worms' will be avoided if the Lady simply retains her US citizenship until her UK citizenship is granted, and then gives up her US passport.

I hear some howling 'but she IS American'... YES, the World knows this, and it will always know that that was where she was born, and brought up...

I agree that's the sensible thing for her to do. And speaking as American, I'd absolutely not be upset if she does renounce. From an accountant perspective, I'd breath a sigh of relief for her. However, this won't take care of the entire situation. Any children born to her before she renounces is going to have US citizenship. They won't be able to renounce until they are of age. If, anytime before then, they are set up with some trust fund from grandparents or great grandparents, that could mean they'd have to file US tax returns as children too. And I don't think there are official confirmations, but the non-direct line children in the royal family have the in past been set up with something at some point when they are little right? Especially as part of an inheritance.

 

[tihkon2]

If any future children is set up with a trust, they'll have to file US tax returns as well. Just because they are underage, doesn't mean they don't have to file tax return.

Sorry Jacqui24

I meant to say, I'm going on the assumption that Meghan will give up her US citizenship once she attains British Citizenship. And then that their (possible) children will decide what's what at the appropriate age.

No matter what the law, I would guess that we won't be seeing underage Princes and Princesses of The United Kingdom paying US income tax. Something will be worked out. It'd be amusing watching the IRS try to do it though.

 

[texankitcat]

This entire 'can of worms' will be avoided if the Lady simply retains her US citizenship until her UK citizenship is granted, and then gives up her US passport.

I hear some howling 'but she IS American'... YES, the World knows this, and it will always know that that was where she was born, and brought up...

I find the whole debate of her retaining her American citizenship once she is married into the Royal family to be a bit ridiculous. She was born American and will always be American whether she is a British citizen or not. That is who she is and will always be. By maintaining her American citizenship wouldn’t she stil be able to vote in US elections and wouldn’t that be a concern? Along with the tax issues and children’s citizenship, etc....wouldn’t it be simplify matters all around ifshe give up her American citizenship rather than open up this can of worms which may backfire on the RF. They already have so much scrutiny on their finances etc.., from the British public. Just saying.....

 

[Somebody]

This entire 'can of worms' will be avoided if the Lady simply retains her US citizenship until her UK citizenship is granted, and then gives up her US passport.

I hear some howling 'but she IS American'... YES, the World knows this, and it will always know that that was where she was born, and brought up...

Not completely - it is an issue until she has UK citizenship. The only way it could be avoided is if she would give it up before marriage and apparently that is not the route they are going to take. To me it would make much more sense if they would go that route (waving the '3 years' requirement) and grant her British citizenship on or before her marriage into the BRF. As was also done for Máxima and Stephanie (not sure about Mary and Marie; anyone?); so yes, of course she will be criticized but it will be for one or the other... She undoubtedly is in a different position - and would they really prefer an American to represent the BRF instead of a British citizen?

Moreover, would they have children before she renounces her US citizenship, her children will be American citizens at least for the first 18 years of their lives - which might include paying taxes as was pointed out.

Edit: Looks like both Mary and Marie gave up their original citizenships (Australian & British; and French, respectively) upon marriage - I assume that means the procedure for obtaining Danish citizenship was fast-tracked.
Edit 2: For both Mary and Marie a special law was passed by which they received Danish citizenship upon marriage.

 

[loonytick]

I find the whole debate of her retaining her American citizenship once she is married into the Royal family to be a bit ridiculous. She was born American and will always be American whether she is a British citizen or not. That is who she is and will always be. By maintaining her American citizenship wouldn’t she stil be able to vote in US elections and wouldn’t that be a concern? Along with the tax issues and children’s citizenship, etc....wouldn’t it be simplify matters all around ifshe give up her American citizenship rather than open up this can of worms which may backfire on the RF. They already have so much scrutiny on their finances etc.., from the British public. Just saying.....

I agree. I really can't see any upside (and a world of downside!) to her keeping her US citizenship.

 

[Somebody]

The three-year path:

The 3 year route
Alternatively, if you are the spouse or civil partner of a British citizen you will be eligible to apply after 3 years in the UK. The residence requirements are as follows:
have lived in the UK for at least 3 years before the date of your application spent no more than 270 days outside the UK during those 3 years spent no more than 90 days outside the UK in the last 12 months been granted indefinite leave to remain or permanent residence not broken any immigration laws while in the UK

The Life in the UK test was already mentioned but Meghan's absences list would also be interesting: why were you abroad? Representing the Queen!

Absences
(...)
You are expected to insert:
the dates that you left the UK
the date your returned
where you went
your reason for going there; and
how many days you were absent

Source

 

[Lisele]

I agree. I really can't see any upside (and a world of downside!) to her keeping her US citizenship.

Thanks to everyone who weighed in on Meghan's US citizenship and taxes Like I said I was aware the US citizen's paid taxes to their home country and the country they work in but didn't factor in the children born in the interim.

Like many here, I'm surprised she wasn't fast tracked like HRH CP Mary, HM Queen Maxima, etc., ... or would that be an option somewhere down the road - possibly when she finds herself enceinte a year or two from now. Somehow, I have a feeling that HM The Queen would want her great-grandchildren from this union UK citizen's and not US. I could be wrong and obviously this is another topic for both H&M to tackle once they get there.

 

[jacqui24]

Not completely - it is an issue until she has UK citizenship. The only way it could be avoided is if she would give it up before marriage and apparently that is not the route they are going to take. To me it would make much more sense if they would go that route (waving the '3 years' requirement) and grant her British citizenship on or before her marriage into the BRF. As was also done for Máxima and Stephanie (not sure about Mary and Marie; anyone?); so yes, of course she will be criticized but it will be for one or the other... She undoubtedly is in a different position - and would they really prefer an American to represent the BRF instead of a British citizen?

Moreover, would they have children before she renounces her US citizenship, her children will be American citizens at least for the first 18 years of their lives - which might include paying taxes as was pointed out.

Edit: Looks like both Mary and Marie gave up their original citizenships (Australian & British; and French, respectively) upon marriage - I assume that means the procedure for obtaining Danish citizenship was fast-tracked.
Edit 2: For both Mary and Marie a special law was passed by which they received Danish citizenship upon marriage.

I completely agree with this. I know there are talks about the immigration tightening. But honestly, she is marrying into an institution that's a big part in the UK culture. It's just really eyebrow raising when someone that isn't a UK citizen is representing HMQ on foreign soil. And having heirs to the throne that could possibly need to disclose their financial assets to the US government is strange. Unless Cambridge has another baby before Charles becomes King, the first child Meghan and Harry have will need permission to marry by law. How is someone that's deemed important enough to need monarch's permission to marry so it doesn't damage the monarch disclosing their financial assets to a foreign government not a problem? Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if once this story gains traction that they are criticized for having a member of the BRF that will be required to file US tax and disclosures.

And yes, Mary, Marie, and Alexandria were all fast tracked for citizenship when they married.

Thanks to everyone who weighed in on Meghan's US citizenship and taxes Like I said I was aware the US citizen's paid taxes to their home country and the country they work in but didn't factor in the children born in the interim.

Like many here, I'm surprised she wasn't fast tracked like HRH CP Mary, HM Queen Maxima, etc., ... or would that be an option somewhere down the road - possibly when she finds herself enceinte a year or two from now. Somehow, I have a feeling that HM The Queen would want her great-grandchildren from this union UK citizen's and not US. I could be wrong and obviously this is another topic for both H&M to tackle once they get there.

Honestly, fast tracking her citizenship and having her renounce US citizenship before their first child is only way to prevent it unless they wait 3 years after marriage. Given her age, I don't see them waiting three years. I know they are trying to follow the rules like normal people, but this is extenuating circumstances. The story started out in US, but Express has already picked it up. I don't think there is a way for them make a law about members of royal family automatically can't have foreign citizenship as it's up to US government to determine validity of US citizenship and procedures.