Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Mbruno]

It has nothing to do with giving up cultural identity. Speaking as an immigrant, I gave up my citizenship of birth when I became a US citizen. I still celebrate the holidays, but my life is here now and that's what makes the most sense. It's stupid to be paying out and creating all kinds of tax headaches just simply to hold on a piece of paper. We have to remember that it won't just be her. With shared income between spouses, this could create headache and potential tax liability on Harry as well once they become a married couple. A lot of ex-pats are actually turning in their US passports because of the tax issue. It has nothing to do with her parents moving to UK or not either.

And actually, there has been conflicting reporting all day from the royal correspondence due to their interpretation during the briefing. New York Times reached out to KP and the statement they got is that she will remain US citizen during the process of obtaining her UK citizenship. No comment on whether she will be renouncing her US citizenship once that's done. Several royal correspondence have also clarified later that no decision regarding her US citizenship has been made on she becomes UK citizen.

As I said, keeping her US citizenship after she becomes a British citizen won't be seen positively by some people in the UK and might be used to attack the Royal Family, which would be unfortunate. That is why I think she will be advised to give it up when she can of course (as someone mentioned, she can't be stateless, can she ?).

 

[jacqui24]

As I said, keeping her US citizenship after she becomes a British citizen won't be seen positively by some people in the UK and might be used to attack the Royal Family, which would be unfortunate. That is why I think she will be advised to give it up when she can of course (as someone mentioned, she can't be stateless, can she ?).

I agree with this assessment. I do think they realize it's a sensitive issue right now as there are a lot of joy in US about her being an American, and so there won't be any announcement of this. In five years, I don't know how many people would get upset over her giving up her US citizenship as she would be well ingrained into the BRF and their causes.

 

[Juliette2]

I know most of the members here are happy for the news of Prince Harry and Miss Markle's engagement. I'm sure they are a couple in love and so I truly wish them the best. This said, I am disappointed to learn that Miss Markle is not baptized (nor confirmed of course), had a traditional Jewish first wedding ceremony and yet, she feels she can convert and marry in 5 months with the blessing of the Church of England. Honestly, this is not right. Clearly, she doesn't seem to take religion very seriously and it just looks (like many other "commoner" brides/grooms by the way) like she (or they) just wants the pageantry of a church wedding, but spiritually, it's all very empty. Since her first husband is Jewish, she had a Jewish wedding now her second husband is Church of England so she is going to have a CofE's wedding?

If they chose a Church wedding just to please the Queen or the Royal Family it is still wrong. Since this is her second wedding they could have had a smaller ceremony and a blessing in Church if they wanted to: it would have been a bit more honest. A "fun" wedding is maybe what they should have had.

It's ridiculous to have a "blushing" bride wearing white marrying at St. George's who has already had a Jewish wedding, went to Catholic school but has never been baptized into any Church. I find it all very hypocritical. I'm disappointed. She's getting too many passes.

 

[Mbruno]

I know most of the members here are happy for the news of Prince Harry and Miss Markle's engagement. I'm sure they are a couple in love and so I truly wish them the best. This said, I am disappointed to learn that Miss Markle is not baptized (nor confirmed of course), had a traditional Jewish first wedding ceremony and yet, she feels she can convert and marry in 5 months with the blessing of the Church of England. Honestly, this is not right. Clearly, she doesn't seem to take religion very seriously and it just looks (like many other "commoner" brides/grooms by the way) like she (or they) just wants the pageantry of a church wedding, but spiritually, it's all very empty. (

On this point, I totally agree with you and I expressed similar concerns in previous posts, although not quite as explicitly.

 

[Empress Merel]

Not everyone was raised religious or becomes religious later in life, but that doesn't mean a marriage is empty because one doesn't believe in a God. Frankly, I find that mindset archaic and not of the modern times.

 

[Pranter]

Do any of you here think other than the Queen and DoE, that most of the BRF take their faith seriously?

We all see them on the Church walk at the obvious holidays. Do any of them, other than the Queen, actually attend services on a regular basis?


LaRae

 

[Empress Merel]

Probably not.

 

[Mbruno]

Not everyone was raised religious or becomes religious later in life, but that doesn't mean a marriage is empty because one doesn't believe in a God. Frankly, I find that mindset archaic and not of the modern times.

I don't think that is what she meant. Her point, I guess, is that being baptized as an adult is a big deal and people should only do it out of conviction and on their free will, after receiving proper instruction as catechumens. That is the position of all mainstream Christian churches (Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, etc.) and is not something to be taken lighty, or just to please your groom's family, or to have a church wedding.

 

[jacqui24]

I know most of the members here are happy for the news of Prince Harry and Miss Markle's engagement. I'm sure they are a couple in love and so I truly wish them the best. This said, I am disappointed to learn that Miss Markle is not baptized (nor confirmed of course), had a traditional Jewish first wedding ceremony and yet, she feels she can convert and marry in 5 months with the blessing of the Church of England. Honestly, this is not right. Clearly, she doesn't seem to take religion very seriously and it just looks (like many other "commoner" brides/grooms by the way) like she (or they) just wants the pageantry of a church wedding, but spiritually, it's all very empty. Since her first husband is Jewish, she had a Jewish wedding now her second husband is Church of England so she is going to have a CofE's wedding?

If they chose a Church wedding just to please the Queen or the Royal Family it is still wrong. Since this is her second wedding they could have had a smaller ceremony and a blessing in Church if they wanted to: it would have been a bit more honest. A "fun" wedding is maybe what they should have had.

It's ridiculous to have a "blushing" bride wearing white marrying at St. George's who has already had a Jewish wedding, went to Catholic school but has never been baptized into any Church. I find it all very hypocritical. I'm disappointed. She's getting too many passes.

She didn't have a traditional Jewish wedding. She had a wedding in Jamaica on the beach. They had that chair thing, but honestly I've seen that at weddings where I KNOW the couple isn't Jewish, so that hardly made it a Jewish wedding.

She didn't have to convert unless she wanted to. The Abbey has made it clear before the engagement was announced that inter-faith ceremonies can happen even in the Abbey. So if she really didn't want to convert or be baptized or confirm, there isn't a need for it. She likely wants to because of her future husband and his family's role in the Church of England and because she wants to do this. It's not like she went from no Jesus to Jesus all of sudden. Her parents are already Protestant, even if not practicing. Autumn Phillips even converted from Roman Catholicism to CoE. She even said that in many ways, it's not that different. So I'm not seeing the pass that's given to Meghan here.

What I saw yesterday during the interview is a woman realizing what type of situation she is getting into and is seeing the positive of it. Not only is she willing to commit herself to the man she loves, but she is will to commit herself to supporting the institution that he was born into and supports for the rest of her life. It strike me that she was very realistic about the situation and is EMBRACING it along with her new country and duties. I think that's commendable.

 

[Juliette2]

Not everyone was raised religious or becomes religious later in life, but that doesn't mean a marriage is empty because one doesn't believe in a God. Frankly, I find that mindset archaic and not of the modern times.

I didn't mean to say that the marriage is empty, not at all. As I said, I'm sure they are in love and I wish them the best as a couple and in raising a family but the ceremony, from a spiritual point of view would appear to be rather empty.

Believing "in a God" is all fine and dandy, but then I would suggest you have a hippy, spiritual wedding on the beach. When you marry with the blessing of a Christian Church (having gone through conversion, baptism, confirmation at a reckless speed!) it is assumed that you do believe and accept the precepts of that Church with honesty and genuine faith. I'm just questioning that.

 

[Osipi]

The way I see it, a religious affiliation is a sense of belonging to a set community that espouses a certain doctrine of belief. Its the public aspect.

Each and every person, from the Queen to the garbage collector in a small town, has their own, personal sense of spirituality and its unique to the person. One may attend church every morning for their entire life and that is what feeds their spirituality. Another may find the communion with their Creator while fertilizing roses and watching life bloom.

I'm not going to question anything on the religious angle in connection with this wedding. Its a personal choice and each person follows what they feel is best for them.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I know most of the members here are happy for the news of Prince Harry and Miss Markle's engagement. I'm sure they are a couple in love and so I truly wish them the best. This said, I am disappointed to learn that Miss Markle is not baptized (nor confirmed of course), had a traditional Jewish first wedding ceremony and yet, she feels she can convert and marry in 5 months with the blessing of the Church of England. Honestly, this is not right. Clearly, she doesn't seem to take religion very seriously and it just looks (like many other "commoner" brides/grooms by the way) like she (or they) just wants the pageantry of a church wedding, but spiritually, it's all very empty. Since her first husband is Jewish, she had a Jewish wedding now her second husband is Church of England so she is going to have a CofE's wedding?

If they chose a Church wedding just to please the Queen or the Royal Family it is still wrong. Since this is her second wedding they could have had a smaller ceremony and a blessing in Church if they wanted to: it would have been a bit more honest. A "fun" wedding is maybe what they should have had.

It's ridiculous to have a "blushing" bride wearing white marrying at St. George's who has already had a Jewish wedding, went to Catholic school but has never been baptized into any Church. I find it all very hypocritical. I'm disappointed. She's getting too many passes.

I kind of feel the same way even though I am never comfortable discussing the spirituality of someone I do not know.

I just hope she isn't converting just to have the pageantry of a Church wedding, or just because she has to.

And the same goes for Harry and anyone else, by the way. If you are not a believer that's okay...just have some integrity and forego the bells and whistles of a Christian religious wedding. If you are one of the many who claim "I am just spiritual and don't believe in organized religion" then the world is full of New Age gurus who will gladly conduct your wedding. No problem.

Sorry but it's something that I feel extremely strongly about.

It's a serious thing to take vows in a church IMO.

ETA: Autumn Phillips couldn't have been more wrong in her statement about the differences between the Anglican and Catholic Church. The fact that she believes there is no real difference only confirms for me that she was one of the millions of very poorly catechized Catholics in the world.

It's good that she is no longer Catholic imo.

 

[Anna Catherine]

I can see what you’re saying though. It’s one thing to attend services or get married but I’ve never liked the practice of converting, getting baptized m, or confirmation simply because you’re marrying into a royal family, any royal family. It can SEEM very disingenuous and perhaps insulting because it’s supposed to be serious.

I don’t know about all of the royal family but Charles and Camilla attend services regularly and William has listed(I forgot where) that being a Christian is important to him so it’s safe to say that we just don’t know about the private convictions of royals nor assume one way or another. Perhaps it’s something that is more important to Meghan now.

 

[loonytick]

I was being sarcastic with the part about her parents. And that decision has everything to do with her parents! They brought her into this world! And they are Americans.

For many people, changing citizenship has nothing to do with how one feels about their parents or the country/culture where they grew up. It's not even about whether a place feels like home still. It's a matter of aligning your legal status with the realities of where you (a) live and work now and (b) intend to keep living and working.

 

[jacqui24]

I was being sarcastic with the part about her parents. And that decision has everything to do with her parents! They brought her into this world! And they are Americans.

My mother isn't an American and she brought me into this world (obviously). What does that have to do with anything? At some point, children grow up and make their own adult decisions as pertaining to their own lives at that time. I'm sure if Meghan wishes to renounce US citizenship because she has moved her life to UK and is settling there and doesn't wish to deal with the headaches of dual citizenship, her parents would support her well-thought out decision.

 

[jacqui24]

I think people are missing the fact that she DOESN'T have to convert to have a religious wedding in church.

 

[Anna Catherine]

I think people are missing the fact that she DOESN'T have to convert to have a religious wedding in church.

That’s true but it’s more about the royal family. It seems like anyone who marries into a royal family converts regardless of personal conviction. I think that’s where the rub is. To marry into the royal family, she’s getting baptized and confirmed before the wedding. Just like Kate had her confirmation before her wedding.

 

[loonytick]

I think people are missing the fact that she DOESN'T have to convert to have a religious wedding in church.

The church doesn't require it, no. We can't know if there was pressure from the BRF, though. It could be the Queen's personal request, it could be that it was deemed the right thing to do for PR...or it could be something truly important to Meghan or to Harry.

We can't really know. Which makes it feel kind of gross for people to vocally assume it's not serious.

 

[jacqui24]

That’s true but it’s more about the royal family. It seems like anyone who marries into a royal family converts regardless of personal conviction. I think that’s where the rub is. To marry into the royal family, she’s getting baptized and confirmed before the wedding. Just like Kate had her confirmation before her wedding.

Then why aren't people upset with the royal family, but they are upset at her and saying how she's getting a pass? Honestly, the feeling I got from the interview yesterday is that Meghan REALLY wants to embrace her new role, family, and country. It seems to me that she has done her homework on what the royal family does. So I really didn't detect that she's hesitant or being strong armed into anything.

And really, one thing that Meghan has consistently talked about yesterday was what is important to her. His mom being part of it, meeting his family including on his mom's side, understanding the institution and working to support it, and so on. So I would say it's entirely plausible that she wants to do this.

 

[AdmirerUS]

I know most of the members here are happy for the news of Prince Harry and Miss Markle's engagement. I'm sure they are a couple in love and so I truly wish them the best. This said, I am disappointed to learn that Miss Markle is not baptized (nor confirmed of course), had a traditional Jewish first wedding ceremony and yet, she feels she can convert and marry in 5 months with the blessing of the Church of England. Honestly, this is not right. Clearly, she doesn't seem to take religion very seriously and it just looks (like many other "commoner" brides/grooms by the way) like she (or they) just wants the pageantry of a church wedding, but spiritually, it's all very empty. Since her first husband is Jewish, she had a Jewish wedding now her second husband is Church of England so she is going to have a CofE's wedding?

If they chose a Church wedding just to please the Queen or the Royal Family it is still wrong. Since this is her second wedding they could have had a smaller ceremony and a blessing in Church if they wanted to: it would have been a bit more honest. A "fun" wedding is maybe what they should have had.

It's ridiculous to have a "blushing" bride wearing white marrying at St. George's who has already had a Jewish wedding, went to Catholic school but has never been baptized into any Church. I find it all very hypocritical. I'm disappointed. She's getting too many passes.

I just don't think any of us have any right to make these kinds of valuations of the Royal Family's intentions. Especially when it comes to religion. Who among us knows what in Meghan's, the Queen's, Harry's or anyone else head about this matter of faith? Faith is internal, not external and cannot truly be judged from outside. My own tent is very big when it comes to acceptance of other's faith.
You do realize you are calling the Queen a hypocrite, right? It's not on the list of top ten words I would use to describe her. Inclusive, honorable and duty bound but not hypocritical.
And it always amazes me when people still get hung up on white wedding dresses. With most skin tones, we all look better in ivory or cream. Bet on it.

 

[ladongas]

Well, obviously, she will have to meet the standards of the CoE, its head (HM), and various officials within the Church in order to convert- not random members of the public. Many of us take our religious beliefs more seriously when we get ready to marry and become parents. And plenty of us would not presume to judge or undermine the religious beliefs of another because they are privately held.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

I think people are missing the fact that she DOESN'T have to convert to have a religious wedding in church.

This. I admit I was disappointed when I heard that Meghan will be baptized etc. Unless you are serious about being a Christian, why bother being baptised. It's hypocritical - especially when Meghan is all about empowerment and choice.

 

[jacqui24]

This. I admit I was disappointed when I heard that Meghan will be baptized etc. Unless you are serious about being a Christian, why bother being baptised. It's hypocritical - especially when Meghan is all about empowerment and choice.

My point was that she doesn't HAVE to do anything. She has a choice and obviously she made it. Empowerment is about having that choice to make for yourself. Now we are going to judge her for the choice she made? I don't see how this is in conflict with her belief in empowering women and giving women choices.

And btw, can something explain to me what is the difference between Anglican and Protestant in terms of actual beliefs? If there are fundamental religious belief change, what's the problem. Why can't she decide to join the Church of England and worship there?

 

[Chloep]

Adding to the citizenship discussion -- if she were to retain her US citizenship any children they may have would also be US citizens through her. That's quite literally the very last thing the public would want/tolerate. That would be a real pearl-clutching thing. I very much doubt she will became a dual citizen in the long run. This may be a very modern union by all standards, but there are certain things that come with this position that you'll have to understand & respect. The grander traditions and loyalities are part of those and by all accounts, Meghan seems to be fully aware and understanding(even supporting) of them. She can still respect her heritage & background (by retainng her accent and incorporating American traditions in their private lives), while creating her own/new 'British' identity as part of the RBF.

 

[Lisele]

Adding to the citizenship discussion -- if she were to retain her US citizenship any children they may have would also be US citizens through her. That's quite literally the very last thing the public would want/tolerate. That would be a real pearl-clutching thing. I very much doubt she will became a dual citizen in the long run. This may be a very modern union by all standards, but there are certain things that come with this position that you'll have to understand & respect. The grander traditions and loyalities are part of those and by all accounts, Meghan seems to be fully aware and understanding(even supporting) of them. She can still respect her heritage & background (by retainng her accent and incorporating American traditions in their private lives), while creating her own/new 'British' identity as part of the RBF.

Well said. Another thing too - Meghan will be representing the UK not the US so it make sense to become a UK citizen and give up her US one.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

My point was that she doesn't HAVE to do anything. She has a choice and obviously she made it. Empowerment is about having that choice to make for yourself. Now we are going to judge her for the choice she made? I don't see how this is in conflict with her belief in empowering women and giving women choices.

And btw, can something explain to me what is the difference between Anglican and Protestant in terms of actual beliefs? If there are fundamental religious belief change, what's the problem. Why can't she decide to join the Church of England and worship there?

There is no real, fundamental difference. Anglicans are considered Protestant. A Protestant Christian is simply a Christian who belongs to a church that does not recognize the authority of the Bishop of Rome-the pope-as one of the Successors of the Apostle Peter and therefore Head of the Church.

The Orthodox do not recognize the authority of the pope either, but they are not considered a Protestant religion for various reasons.

All of the religious groups that came from the Protestant Reformation(Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopal) are said to be Protestant...meaning they "protested" against the Catholic Church.

That's a very limited explanation. You can find out more online.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Adding to the citizenship discussion -- if she were to retain her US citizenship any children they may have would also be US citizens through her. That's quite literally the very last thing the public would want/tolerate. That would be a real pearl-clutching thing. I very much doubt she will became a dual citizen in the long run. This may be a very modern union by all standards, but there are certain things that come with this position that you'll have to understand & respect. The grander traditions and loyalities are part of those and by all accounts, Meghan seems to be fully aware and understanding(even supporting) of them. She can still respect her heritage & background (by retainng her accent and incorporating American traditions in their private lives), while creating her own/new 'British' identity as part of the RBF.

Well, If it does take 5 years to obtain UK citizenship then I imagine Harry and Meghan could have two children already by then--even if Meghan gives up her US citizenship after that, that ship has sailed. Those kids would already have dual citizenship.

 

[American Observer7]

Well said. Another thing too - Meghan will be representing the UK not the US so it make sense to become a UK citizen and give up her US one.

I get what you're saying but I still say she won't do it. But we'll see Anyway, from now until 5 years after they are married she is 100% American!! We'll see what SHE decides at that time. So, until then, point is moot and not worth debating.

 

[Lisele]

My point was that she doesn't HAVE to do anything. She has a choice and obviously she made it. Empowerment is about having that choice to make for yourself. Now we are going to judge her for the choice she made? I don't see how this is in conflict with her belief in empowering women and giving women choices.

I think this has to do with future children. They'll need to be brought up in the CoE and I can respect her decision to do this, if not for her, for her future children. Or we could totally be wrong and she wants to convert for her own personal and spiritual reasons.

 

[Chloep]

I actually hardly believe that her citizenship proceedings will take 5 years. She will be marrying the grandson of the monarch next May. She is not exactly your regular applicant. She'll have that citzenship by the end of 2018, imo. Plenty before the children come along, I reckon.

All we can say, is that she has DECIDED to marry into the Royal British Family, becoming a working British Royal in 6 months time. There is no picking and choosing what aspects of this very special life she likes and dislikes. Either she chose to embrace it or not. She did. May they prosper and be merry in their unique union, I say!