Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Gaudete]

Tell me, do you think our Queen also blackmailed Sophie and Autumn? Mike Tindall? All had church weddings, not civil.

Maybe George V blackmailed Princess Marina too who wasn’t an Anglican and had two marriage ceremonies - one according to the Anglican Rite and another straight after according to the Greek Orthodox Rite. In fact, Marina worshipped in both churches on alternate Sundays her whole life. And I don’t recall George V, Edward VIII, George VI or the present Queen sending her a cease and desist....

 

[soapstar]

Let's remember to be respectful of one another, please. And let's get back on topic, which is Meghan's religious conversion.

 

[Gaudete]

The Queen can set it as a condition for Harry. He needs her permission before the marriage can take place in the first place



If Harry was Joe Bloggs it wouldn’t matter but The Queen has standards.

Have you any proof that such a condition was set either for Harry or for any other member of the Royal Family prior to their marriage?

 

[jacqui24]

The Queen can set it as a condition for Harry. He needs her permission before the marriage can take place in the first place

I think the Queen has learned the lessons about placing unnecessary demands on marriages with Diana and Charles. That's a dangerous threat to make. And would be unusual for this situation. The decisions of who to marry has been about love in her later years. And we should differentiate that Harry doesn't need the Queen's permission to marry in the first place. He can marry whomever he wants whenever he wants in whatever way he wants. And he can do so in a church as long as the officiate is ok with it. He needs her permission in order to stay in the line of succession. And if it really came down to it, I don't doubt that he would marry the person he loves if the demands can't be met.

And let's just be a little careful before we basically go into the territory of accusing the Queen of blackmailing her grandson about his marriage without any evidence.

 

[Rudolph]

Just because church is liberal in it dealings doesn’t mean The Queen is. I think not being baptised would be her red line.

Why go through the motions of a church wedding if someone wasn’t willing to be baptised.

 

[Somebody]

Tell me, do you think our Queen also blackmailed Sophie and Autumn? Mike Tindall? All had church weddings, not civil.

Autumn also became Anglican ahead of her marriage (so Peter would stay in line to the throne). So, in her case it would have had significant consequences (had she stayed catholic) that the queen didn't need to point out.

What were Sophie's and Mike's religious backgrounds that you see a ground for blackmaling (I know you are trying to argue the opposite )? Were they baptized or confirmed shortly before their respective marriages?

 

[jacqui24]

Just because church is liberal in it dealings doesn’t mean The Queen is. I think not not being baptised would be her red line.

Why go through the motions of a church wedding if someone wasn’t willing to be baptised.

Because Harry is Anglican. There are plenty of people that marry in church even if one of the person doesn't follow the faith. There is a reason why Westminster Abbey spokesperson said they allow for interfaith marriages when Camilla Tominey inquired before the wedding location was announced. There are couples out there that gets married in church maintaining different religions. Again, that isn't something the Queen decides on. It's something the officiate decides on if they are comfortable with.

 

[Gaudete]

Just because church is liberal in it dealings doesn’t mean The Queen is. I think not not being baptised would be her red line.

Why go through the motions of a church wedding if someone wasn’t willing to be baptised.

I can only repeat what I have said. The Queen has no authority over who can and who can’t get married in church. Neither can she order any cleric to insist on certain requirements or criteria before marriage. This lays entirely with the General Synod who in turn devolve the individual decision making process to the parish priest.

If you believe the Queen has ordered Meghan to be baptised and confirmed before her marriage as a condition of her permission for the wedding, you’re entitled to that belief. But facts are facts and constitutionally, the Queen has absolutely no authority to determine the policy of the Church of England on the sacrament of marriage.

We can agree to disagree but I would really suggest you research the role played by the Church of England, how it’s governed and what its policies are concerning this matter.

 

[Curryong]

What do you base that opinion on. Please let us all know!

And what about confirmation? After all Kate was only confirmed shortly before her wedding, as we know. Or is the fact that Meghan wasn't baptised (as a baby before really one knows anything about it really) what you are objecting to, Rudolph? Or is it that the Archbishop of Canterbury (who has said some very nice things) may well be marrying the couple?

 

[Rudolph]

I can only repeat what I have said. The Queen has no authority over who can and who can’t get married in church. Neither can she order any cleric to insist on certain requirements or criteria before marriage. This lays entirely with the General Synod who in turn devolve the individual decision making process to the parish priest.

If you believe the Queen has ordered Meghan to be baptised and confirmed before her marriage as a condition of her permission for the wedding, you’re entitled to that belief. But facts are facts and constitutionally, the Queen has absolutely no authority to determine the policy of the Church of England on the sacrament of marriage.

We can agree to disagree but I would really suggest you research the role played by the Church of England, how it’s governed and what its policies are concerning this matter.

I know the Church of England backwards and forwards. Been a member all my life. Are you saying if The Queen said to Harry I will grant permission on the condition Meghan gets baptised he would say the heck with that?

Harry respects his grandmother. If that’s what she wants that’s what she gets.

 

[Somebody]

And we should differentiate that Harry doesn't need the Queen's permission to marry in the first place. He can marry whomever he wants whenever he wants in whatever way he wants. And he can do so in a church as long as the officiate is ok with it. He needs her permission in order to stay in the line of succession. And if it really came down to it, I don't doubt that he would marry the person he loves if the demands can't be met.

However, the argument that is made is a condition that is rather 'easy' to meet. So, I agree that Harry would ultimately marry without permission if there was no other way but he wouldn't want to bring that upon his grandmother if not strictly necessary. So if (strong if) the queen's condition or strong suggestion/advice/expectation was for Meghan to get baptized and confirmed, it would be hard to ignore - unless Meghan would have an extremely good reason (think: conciencious objection) to go against the wishes of her new 'boss'.

 

[jacqui24]

I know the Church of England backwards and forwards. Been a member all my life. Are you saying if The Queen said to Harry I will grant permission on the condition Meghan gets baptised he would say the heck with that?

Harry respects his grandmother. If that’s what she wants that’s what she gets.

You realize this isn't just between Harry and the Queen right? There is a third person here that ultimately makes the decision as it is she that have to be baptized.

 

[Gaudete]

I know the Church of England backwards and forwards. Been a member all my life. Are you saying if The Queen said to Harry I will grant permission on the condition Meghan gets baptised he would say the heck with that?



Harry respects his grandmother. If that’s what she wants that’s what she gets.

Then you’ll know that Church of England celebrants often marry couples with all kinds of different backgrounds. Roman Catholic Priests don’t, Orthodox Rabbis don’t - Anglican priests do.

I didn’t suggest the Queen had set that condition, you did. I was asking if you had any evidence to suggest that was true.

 

[jacqui24]

However, the argument that is made is a condition that is rather 'easy' to meet. So, I agree that Harry would ultimately marry without permission if there was no other way but he wouldn't want to bring that upon his grandmother if not strictly necessary. So if (strong if) the queen's condition or strong suggestion/advice/expectation was for Meghan to get baptized and confirmed, it would be hard to ignore - unless Meghan would have an extremely good reason (think: conciencious objection) to go against the wishes of her new 'boss'.

I only said that to point out the facts of the situation. I don't think the situation ever came down to that. My view is if Meghan has strong feelings against it, then the Queen would've still granted permission. Some are suggesting that the Queen basically use this permission to blackmail them. And honestly, at fifth in line to the throne, the likelihood of him getting to the throne is so small that he might as well turn it in.

 

[Rudolph]

Before the clergy can perform the wedding Harry needs The Queen’s blessing unless we’re going completely of the charts and Harry quits the Firm.

I know the clergy can perform the ceremony but unlike almost every other person Harry needs his grandmothers permission and I don’t think he would ignore The Queen’s ‘suggestion’

 

[Gaudete]

A priest can carry out a wedding ceremony whenever he likes, with or without the Sovereign’s permission. The Queen has no right to tell a priest who he may or may not marry within his own church.

As others have said, the Queen can only withhold permission concerning Harry’s place within the Royal Family and even if she had done for whatever reason, Harry and Meghan could still marry in Church if he was just plain Mr H Wales.

The Queen has nothing to do with the governance of the Church of England other than in a ceremonial role.

 

[jacqui24]

Before the clergy can perform the wedding Harry needs The Queen’s blessing unless we’re going completely of the charts and Harry quits the Firm.

I know the clergy can perform the ceremony but unlike almost every other person Harry needs his grandmothers permission and I don’t think he would ignore The Queen’s ‘suggestion’

You are bundling two separate things together. The clergy performs the ceremony with or without the Queen's permission. And the Queen grants permission for marriage regardless if it's a civil or church ceremony. If Harry decides to go down to the city hall and get married, he'd still need permission or the consequences would still be the same. So in this sense, the Queen's permission has nothing to do with a church wedding. She can't grant him only the right to marry in a civil ceremony unless his bride gets baptized. She can flat out deny the marriage. But I don't see her doing that over something like this.

 

[Rudolph]

Never once did I mention The Queen telling clergy what they can and can’t do.

Before we get to that step Harry needs his grandmothers blessing. The Queen can make any ‘suggestions’ to Harry she wants. And Harry being Harry would obey his grandmother.

 

[Osipi]

Lets remember one simple fact here. When Harry has to ask permission to marry, he's not asking his grandmother for permission. He's asking his monarch for permission to marry. The monarch has certain criteria of how to deem whether or not to give permission and that is discussed with her Privy Counsel before any permission is given. This is solely as her role as the monarch. This practice has been seen mostly as a formality in this day and age. Originally, it was put in place to guarantee that no Roman Catholic could ever get into any kind of position where they would anywhere near the throne and the Crown. The Queen's *personal* feelings do not enter into this at all when deeming whether or not to give permission to marry.

Granny's religious beliefs are her own and I do not think she would ever *force* the way she practices her beliefs or the way she would prefer someone else behave and practice as she sees it as a condition to marry. To even suggest that she would even *think* to impose conditions on one's religious or spiritual path is just totally preposterous. But that's just me.

 

[jacqui24]

Never once did I mention The Queen telling clergy what they can and can’t do.

Before we get to that step Harry needs his grandmothers blessing. The Queen can make any ‘suggestions’ to Harry she wants. And Harry being Harry would obey his grandmother.

Again, you are forgetting there is someone else involved here. It's not Harry's decision whether or not Meghan gets baptized at the end of the day. Meghan can give her "suggestions" to Harry as much as the Queen can.

 

[Somebody]

Yes, clergy could marry Harry and Meghan even when the queen does not approve of the marriage but the church and queen consult and it wouldn't be by a senior church leader as that would be considered an affront to the queen. The only exception would be if the queen withholds her permission but also clearly explains to the church that she would be fine with (fill in the blank).

It is not a black and white situation. While both the queen and the archbisshop (or other senior clergy) have distinct roles, they will try to avoid anything that might look like a disagreement or conflict. So, before the announcement was made and official permission was granted, I am quite sure these things were discussed and no objections found (so all of the above seems a hypothetical problem; I don't see any evidence to suggest that Meghan had to be 'forced' to make the decision she made; nor do I see evidence for a serious difference of opinion between queen and church).

Lets remember one simple fact here. When Harry has to ask permission to marry, he's not asking his grandmother for permission. He's asking his monarch for permission to marry. The monarch has certain criteria of how to deem whether or not to give permission and that is discussed with her Privy Counsel before any permission is given. This is solely as her role as the monarch. (...)

Granny's religious beliefs are her own and I do not think she would ever *force* the way she practices her beliefs or the way she would prefer someone else behave and practice as she sees it as a condition to marry. To even suggest that she would even *think* to impose conditions on one's religious or spiritual path is just totally preposterous. But that's just me.

Exactly because she has to give permission 'as the monarch', which includes being the head of the Church of England, it is not unreasonable to think that religious issues are considered (not as a go/no go, but as part of the full picture). Until very recently, anyone marrying a catholic would automatically be excluded (and Harry becoming a catholic would still exclude him - so as the monarch she (or more precisely, the law) imposes conditions on Harry's religious path), so, if the queen would worry about Meghan setting Harry up against the Church of England that would be something that would not be taken lightly...

 

[jacqui24]

Exactly because she has to give permission 'as the monarch', which includes being the head of the Church of England, it is not unreasonable to think that religious issues are considered (not as a go/no go, but as part of the full picture). Until very recently, anyone marrying a catholic would automatically be excluded (and Harry becoming a catholic would still exclude him - so as the monarch she (or more precisely, the law) imposes conditions on Harry's religious path), so, if the queen would worry about Meghan setting Harry up against the Church of England that would be something that would not be taken lightly...

But even if she's not baptized, Meghan isn't setting Harry up against the CoE. Even if she were Catholic, that wouldn't be cause to deny permission in today's world. As much as we like to think the monarch having all out power over this, there is a sense of what is reasonable in this day and age. And I would say blackmail someone into a religion isn't it. Nor do I believe this Queen would.

Yes, clergy could marry Harry and Meghan even when the queen does not approve of the marriage but the church and queen consult and it wouldn't be by a senior church leader as that would be considered an affront to the queen. The only exception would be if the queen withholds her permission but also clearly explains to the church that she would be fine with (fill in the blank).

It is not a black and white situation. While both the queen and the archbisshop (or other senior clergy) have distinct roles, they will try to avoid anything that might look like a disagreement or conflict. So, before the announcement was made and official permission was granted, I am quite sure these things were discussed and no objections found (so all of the above seems a hypothetical problem; I don't see any evidence to suggest that Meghan had to be 'forced' to make the decision she made; nor do I see evidence for a serious difference of opinion between queen and church).

I honestly don't think it ever came to that being a serious thing the Queen and clergy had to discuss. Meghan isn't dumb. Her and Harry talked about how he's been preparing her for other things. I highly doubt this topic just got dropped. Chances are, she's already of Christian faith and didn't see much problems with it. And really, if she was really set against it out of personal conviction, I still don't see the Queen getting all upset over it given she would understand what it is like to have deep spiritual beliefs.

 

[Somebody]

But even if she's not baptized, Meghan isn't setting Harry up against the CoE. Even if she were Catholic, that wouldn't be cause to deny permission in today's world. As much as we like to think the monarch having all out power over this, there is a sense of what is reasonable in this day and age. And I would say blackmail someone into a religion isn't it. Nor do I believe this Queen would.

I responded to a post that said that the queen would not impose any conditions regarding religious beliefs on anyone. I don't agree with that assessment - a religious condition is already imposed on Harry and everyone else who wants to stay in the line to the throne (and especially on Charles, William and George, they cannot ascend the throne if they are not in communion with the Church of England!), so religious beliefs are relevant as part of the queen's reasoning to either grant or not grant her permission.

In the hypothetical situation that (or IF for short) the queen would be concerned about Meghan setting Harry up against the church (which she clearly isn't, I never suggested that not being baptized was equal to that) that would surely be taken into consideration - the queen wouldn't completely ignore that aspect. It might not be the decisive factor but it won't be passed over either - and some conversations might be needed. Again, I don't see a reason to think that is currently the case but in today's world that still is possible.

If for example George would want to marry someone of a different faith and this person insists that any children will be brought up in that faith, that could be a reason to withhold permission - as his oldest child is supposed to ascend the throne one day and currently would not be able to do so in those circumstances.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Before the clergy can perform the wedding Harry needs The Queen’s blessing unless we’re going completely of the charts and Harry quits the Firm.

I know the clergy can perform the ceremony but unlike almost every other person Harry needs his grandmothers permission and I don’t think he would ignore The Queen’s ‘suggestion’

Not true! Harry needs his sovereign's permission to marry to stay in the line of succession. The clergy performing the ceremony do not need the Queen's permission.

Just because some people don't like or approve of Meghan doesn't change facts.

If Meghan had strong religious beliefs other than those similar to the Anglican church, but agreed to raise any children in the church I don't believe there would be any issues.
It seems to me though, Meghan was raised in a generic Christian background and she has no problems with formalizing her relationship with religion to join her husband's family in worship. Lots of people do the same thing.

 

[cepe]

What the Queen could have done is refused permission for the marriage to take place in a "royal peculiar".

I'm not saying she would but that is one of two powers she has, the other being Harry's place in the line of succession.


This is a woman who is famed for avoiding confrontation. She wouldn't refuse anything, but she might have recommended.

 

[AdmirerUS]

I responded to a post that said that the queen would not impose any conditions... to stay in the line to the throne (and especially on Charles, William and George, they cannot ascend the throne if they are not in communion with the Church of England!), so religious beliefs are relevant as part of the queen's reasoning to either grant or not grant her permission.

I am not disagreeing with you. I'd just add that the modifier you use "ESPECIALLY" means that there is relevance and then there is relevance, depending on who you are in the family. She cannot order anyone to have faith. She can only hope for that. But I have always observed the degree of communion with COE to be a sliding scale for the BRF depending on the times, the person in question, the ruler. And the UK is no different on this same issue of faith than in other countries.

 

[Zaira]

At the end of the day, Meghan is seeking to be confirmed and baptised in the Anglican Communion as part of the COE, something that most royal brides have done in recent times including Kate and Autumn. Meghan comes from a generically Christian background with a strong education in faith values from her middle school to high school years and has volunteered with one of the biggest Christian organizations. Whether in her heart she believes in the particular tenets of the COE or not isn't really our business.

Those trying to not so subtly impugn her for this are just stirring trouble.

 

[Somebody]

I am not disagreeing with you. I'd just add that the modifier you use "ESPECIALLY" means that there is relevance and then there is relevance, depending on who you are in the family. She cannot order anyone to have faith. She can only hope for that. But I have always observed the degree of communion with COE to be a sliding scale for the BRF depending on the times, the person in question, the ruler. And the UK is no different on this same issue of faith than in other countries.

Completely true. The requirement for the monarch is to be a member of the church not to believe (as that would be an impossible condition - act as if would be the closest they can ask for but is significantly different). Harry in my opinion is close enough to the throne (would something terrible happen with William's family, he is the one to take over) for it to matter.

There is, however, a difference between countries in which the head of state is required to be the member of a specific church (or other religion) compared to countries where there might be an expectation (or not) but no rule. So, the UK differs in this respect from some monarchies (for example, the Dutch) and is comparable to others (for example, the Swedish - although they require everyone in line to be in communion with the Lutheran church which the UK no longer requires for the CoE).

 

[Ish]

What the Queen could have done is refused permission for the marriage to take place in a "royal peculiar".



I'm not saying she would but that is one of two powers she has, the other being Harry's place in the line of succession.





This is a woman who is famed for avoiding confrontation. She wouldn't refuse anything, but she might have recommended.

Correct me if I’m misreading, but what you’re saying here is:

1. The Queen could have refused permission on the grounds that she found Meghan unacceptable, in which case if Harry had gone ahead and married Meghan anyways he would have lost his place in the succession, and
2. The Queen could have granted permission to the marriage, but not granted Harry and Meghan permission to marry at a church which the Queen has jurisdiction over (ie Windsor).

Given as the Queen has both granted permission to the marriage and allowed it to happen at a royal peculiar, I think we can agree that the Queen is on board with this relationship.

To your last point, I agree that it’s unlikely that HM would make any requirements of such a nature (seriously, some of the posts here make it seem like HM is a dictator). First there’s the issue that she is notorious for avoiding confrontation, and second - do we seriously think that someone who takes their religion seriously would demand someone else to convert in such a way? I do think she would make a recommendation, and I think Meghan’s smart enough to realize the benefit.

I mean, really... unless Meghan is an ardent believer in another religion or Christian denomination or an ardent atheist - neither of which there is any evidence to believe is true - then it would make sense for her to join the religious faith of her fiancé’s family, particularly given that they are fairly religious and she is going to be expected to attend church services and raise her future children in the church. It’s something that people all over the world do, so what’s the big deal if that’s what Meghan is doing?

 

[cepe]

Ish - that's a great translation