Princess Madeleine & Family Moving to Florida: August 2018

[Denville]

I think most of us agree, that Leonore had to be given a title since she was at that point Estelle’s spare. Not body could be sure if Victoria would have anymore children and Carl Philip would have any at all.
There was a time when only a child Carl Gustaf and his childless uncle Bertie were in the line of succession and the future looked uncertain until CG had children. They didn’t want a repeat of this.

It would be unfair for leonore to have a title and not the other siblings ( also, Nicholas was the kings third grandchild with no certainty of anymore).

I think Madeleine would like her children to have their royal titles, but Chris wants to live away from Sweden. And he does seem to wear the pants. This Madeleine is going along, with the hope that in another two years (till Leonore turns 6), she’d be able to convince him move back to Sweden.

It would be sad if Leonore loses her place in succession for no fault of hers (even though she’s so far down). Either don’t give it to a child, or don’t take it away for no fault of his/hers

surely she is in the succession, if she's the legitimate child of her parents nad fulfils the requirement of being raised in Sweden? If not, then she's out of the succession... if she is raised outside Sweden. if that' is the law, that's the law. I wuodl have thought that she did not need an HRH to succeed. To use the English example again, if the present queen had had only 2 children, Charles nad Anne, and A had married Marke Phillips, and then Charles had died in 1980 without producing an heir.. then the next in line after Anne would have been her son, Peter, who didn't have any title.. but he was the legitimate son of the queen's daughter.. and heir...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

What is interesting, commissioner Ingvar Lindell (who did the investigation of female succession) suggested that the government should take into account where the couple should live when giving consent or denying the permission to a person in the line of succession to marry. But this was never put to the law.

An important point, the wording of the Act of Succession is that the children should be "raised in pure evangelical teaching and within the realm".
That sentence was not changed when the Act of Succession was modernized in 1980. And it is apparent from the preliminary work of the law that it was considered very important that the heir to the throne grows up in Sweden.
Commissioner Ingvar Lindell argues in the investigation of female succession (SOU 1977: 5) that a law on marriage rules equals men and women is often applied in different ways. The princes usually bring home their foreign brides to Sweden, while princesses reside in foreign countries where the children are raised, "maybe without closer contact with Swedish language and Swedish society".
Just to avoid the situation that a Swedish princess marries a foreign man and settles abroad, commissioner Lindell suggested that the government should take into account where the couple should live when giving consent or denying the permission to a person in the line of succession to marry.
Lindell suggested that a consent can be combined with the conditions that the couple settles in Sweden and raises the children here. He referred to similar conditions in Denmark when Princess Benedikte married.
However, some such conditions have not been introduced in Sweden and were not discussed at all when Princess Madeleine was to marry the foreign citizen Christopher O'Neill.
Osäkert vad som gäller för tronföljden - Nyheter (Ekot) _ Sveriges Radio

Thanks for this very interesting article. It shows the considerable difficulties which result from the concept that the wife (even when she is a princess and a successor to the throne) should always reside in the country of the husband and not the other way around.

We should also remember that:
1. the duchies are not peerages but personal styles of courtesy.
2. the King can't ennoble anyone. The last person ennobled in Sweden was Sven Hedin in 1901.

This means (again my interpretation) that according to previous the children would lose both HRH, their title and their duchies if they lose their place in the line of succession. If they for example kept their duchies it could be seen as an act of ennoblement which is both illegal and would have both the political establishment and many members of the public on the warpath.

In the past, whenever a prince of Sweden was excluded from the line of succession, he lost his HRH status and his dukedom . For example,

1. HRH Prince Sigvard of Sweden, Duke of Uppland became Mr Sigvard Bernadotte.
2. HRH Prince Carl Johan of Sweden, Duke of Dalarna became Mr Carl Johan Bernadotte.

Furthermore, I believe they also ceased to be knights of the Royal Order of the Seraphim.


The power of the King to grant dukedoms to princes was apparently derived from an article in the old Instrument of Government of 1809 which said that:

Hvarken Svea rikes kronprins eller arffurste eller prinsar af det konungsliga huset skola hafva något lifgeding eller civilt embete; dock kunna efter gammalt bruk titlar af hertigdömen och furstendömen dem tilläggas, utan rättighet till de landskap, hvilkas namn de bära.

As you can see, it appears that having a dukedom was tied to being crown prince or some other prince of the Royal House, implying that , when one ceased to be a prince of the Royal House, he could no longer remain a duke.

The Instrument of Government of 1809 has now been repealed and replaced with the new Instrument of Government of 1974, which doesn't mention anything about dukedoms. However, since King Carl XVI Gustaf continued to grant dukedoms to his descendants who are in the line of succession, I assume he believes that the article I quoted above still holds as an unwritten royal prerogative and that, furthermore, it has been extended to princesses of the blood too as they are now also in the line of succession.

The long title of Swedish princes in those days was HRH Prince xxx, Arvfurste (Hereditary Prince) of Sweden, Duke of xxx. There is a precedent for conserving part of this title when forfeiting succession rights. King Oscar II's second son Oscar married a non-royal woman and gave up his succession rights and the titles of HRH, Arvfurste and Duke. However, he kept the title of Prince and was known from then as Prince Oscar Bernadotte, without the HRH.

As for retaining the ducal title after losing the HRH, while there is no actual precedent, there is the court's declaration that Jonas Bergström would share Princess Madeleine's ducal title but not become a prince. Was it seen as a planned act of ennoblement back then? If it was, the king could have convincingly argued that it would not be, given that no dukes have ever been in the nobility of Sweden - only the royal house.

Yes, it's my personal interpretation although parts of the preparatory work does support it. The question is:
1. How much weight the preparatory work carries (although important its validity is often a case of cherry picking)
2. The King could decide otherwise although I'm sure the government will want to weigh in on this
3. The results of the ongoing inquiry if it's allowed to finish it's work (the September elections could shake things up considerably).

The only clarification of intent from the Court that we have is what's been said about a Swedish education being a requirement for a place in the line of succession.

Now Tatiana, I know you're going to want to see some receipts as usual. I'm on it but working this weekend and writing an essay so it could taje some time.

I appreciate your input with or without the receipts and am looking forward to whatever further information you write.

A fourth question is if the King sees the possible eventual removal of Leonore, Nicolas, and Adrienne from the line of succession as extending to their future children. In the case that Leonore were raised in the United States, and later moved to Sweden where she raised her own children, withdrawing royal titles from Leonore would create questions if her children were in the line of succession.

Sweden is definitely not like, for example, Spain, where the law specfies in a very clear way what title each member of the Royal Family has (or could have), and even what their respective styles of address are. So there is a lot that is open to interpretation.


My interpretation, however, based on the wording of the Act of Succession and on the practice of the Court is that, for descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf specifically, being a prince or princess of Sweden is equivalent to being in the line of sucession to the throne. Since equivalence in mathematics works both ways , then losing your place in the line of succession means ceasing to be a prince.


If that is indeed the case, there is actually a simple legal solution to handle the uncontrolled growth in the number of members of the Royal House without having to break the connection between princely status and succession rights. It suffices to follow the Dutch model and limit the line of succession by proximity of blood to the current monarch. That way, when Victoria became queen, her nieces and nephews would still be in the line of succession (and would not have to give up their HRHs or dukedoms), but their respective children (CP's and Madeleine's grandchildren) would not and, automatically, would not be princes. Furthermore, that change could be easily implemented adding a short sentence to Art. 1 of the Act of Succession, and without having to change anything else in the wording of the law.

That would be very sensible (I would propose limiting it by proximity to any monarch instead of the current monarch in order that no one is forced to lose their succession rights or titles when there is a change of reign) as it would avoid the delicate situation in some other monarchies with private citizens who are not even princesses or princes theoretically being required to be king/queen if something happened to the royals.

 

[JR76]

I wonder if the requirement that heirs are raised within the realm was a way to stop Prince Gustav, the son of the deposed and banished Gustav IV Adolf from claiming the throne.

 

[akina21]

I have this theory that Madeleine's children got titles to achieve a sense of equality in the family . Victoria's children would obviously be titled as the children of the direct heir . Same with Carl Philips kids , he's male , nobody would think twice about him giving his title to his kids . Which left Madeleine in a bit of a weird spot . Not the heir and no real precedent for women to pass on titles to their children .

 

[Kataryn]

I have read quite often that the king is very conservative and for long years had wished that his son becomes his successor. As parliament thought differently and changed the law about the succession, my guess is that the king took this to mean that all his children are equal, so all his grandchildren should be considered as if they were the children of sons. For if he only had sons, then the firstborn would have been the heir and all the son's children would have been prince or princess of Sweden.


The Royal history of Sweden, as far as I know, did not have cases where more than one branch of the Royal family survived for long, so the problem of the titles of a king's great-grandchild in male line never came up.



But I see no problem to make a child born in that distance from the monarch to become simply count/countess Bernadotte. Or Baron Bernadotte, that was the title Jean-Baptiste asked for his brother, who stayed in France when Jean-Baptiste became crown prince of Sweden. It is not ennobling that way, but downgrading from being a Royal prince or princess.

 

[Denville]

I wonder if the requirement that heirs are raised within the realm was a way to stop Prince Gustav, the son of the deposed and banished Gustav VI Adolf from claiming the throne.

When was Gustav VI Adolph banished?

 

[xenobia]

If that is indeed the case, there is actually a simple legal solution to handle the uncontrolled growth in the number of members of the Royal House without having to break the connection between princely status and succession rights. It suffices to follow the Dutch model and limit the line of succession by proximity of blood to the current monarch. That way, when Victoria became queen, her nieces and nephews would still be in the line of succession (and would not have to give up their HRHs or dukedoms), but their respective children (CP's and Madeleine's grandchildren) would not and, automatically, would not be princes. Furthermore, that change could be easily implemented adding a short sentence to Art. 1 of the Act of Succession, and without having to change anything else in the wording of the law.

I think this is a very sensible and wise solution to the questions regarding titles and succession. It doesn't remove anything from those currently in line, but limits the number of people in the future.

 

[JR76]

When was Gustav VI Adolph banished?

He was deposed and banished with his wife and children in 1809

 

[Somebody]

We probably should move this interesting discussion to the 'Questions about titles'-thread or to the 'Swedish line of succession'-thread.

 

[Kataryn]

2. the King can't ennoble anyone. The last person ennobled in Sweden was Sven Hedin in 1901.

This means (again my interpretation) that according to previous the children would lose both HRH, their title and their duchies if they lose their place in the line of succession. If they for example kept their duchies it could be seen as an act of ennoblement which is both illegal and would have both the political establishment and many members of the public on the warpath.

But going from HRH Princess..., Duchess of to Countess Bernadotte wouldn't be an enoblement, but a downgrading?

 

[JR76]

But going from HRH Princess..., Duchess of to Countess Bernadotte wouldn't be an enoblement, but a downgrading?

If they are not members of the Royal house anymore it would be an ennoblement. The King can't confer titles on anyone outside of the Royal house.

 

[Kataryn]

He was deposed and banished with his wife and children in 1809

The interesting thing is that the line of potential claimants from this line (considering that this dynasty knew female inheritance the semi-salic way) ended in Viktoria of Baden, who was queen of Sweden and mother of Gustav VI. Adolf. So this king was both the Bernadotte and the Vasa-heir to Sweden.



Viktoria's claim goes this way:
Gustav IV. of Sweden - Gustav (the Prince of Vasa) - Gustav's daughter Carola of Vasa, queen of Saxony (childless) - her aunt, Gustav IV.'s daughter Sophie of Sweden, grandduchess of Baden - her son Friedrich I. von Baden - her grandson Friedrich II. von Baden (childless) - her granddaughter, Friedrich II.'s sister Viktoria of Baden, queen of Sweden - Gustav VI. Adolf, king of Sweden.

 

[Lady Nimue]

Who wants to move to Florida with all those snakes and crocs - I am trying to move to London - they be better off living in London in a much cheaper flat

My first thought! Ha! Plus all the bugs! And the rising tide/sea level.

The house in Palm Beach is no longer for sale and is under contract (to be sold). It has not been taken off the market. The pending sale can easily be verified on Zillow. Could be of course that Madeleine and Chris have bought it and that it is therefore listed as a ‘sale’ on Zillow, but I believe more likely is that they acquire a house of their own.

I don't understand: where then did they move to? A new house? Maybe a leased property?

 

[Princess]

Basically I think Madeleine has enough sense of duty that she is happy with her royal status and having a voice to focus on special themes and representing her country and her family.
But: she choosed a husband who (IMO) is absolutely not interesed in anything that has to do with her official life in Sweden. Or the country of his wife in special. Which is his very right, no doubt. But in a long run I think this is not going to work for life. Just like Ari Behn and Märtha Louise.

Just my 2 cent

 

[Lady Nimue]

Basically I think Madeleine has enough sense of duty that she is happy with her royal status and having a voice to focus on special themes and representing her country and her family.
But: she choosed a husband who (IMO) is absolutely not interesed in anything that has to do with her official life in Sweden. Or the country of his wife in special. Which is his very right, no doubt. But in a long run I think this is not going to work for life. Just like Ari Behn and Märtha Louise.

Just my 2 cent

I think they are a couple very much in love who are very clear-eyed (between them) regarding their marriage. JMO but I think this marriage is going the distance. (In fact, there may be more children, yet. Just a hunch. )

 

[Princess]

LadyNimue, one would absolutely wish that for that girl after all she had to go through.
And yes, I also do not believe that 3 kids is the end of the story

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Florida is not just one big retirement village. The big cities have many businesses and working families with small children. However, I doubt there are enough Swedes for a Swedish school.
Now that Victoria had Oscar and CP two children, Madeleine's children do not seem integral to the succession as before. the King will decide

There actually is a Swedish School in Broward County.

There is also a chapter of SWEA International.

 

[Somebody]

There actually is a Swedish School in Broward County.

There is also a chapter of SWEA International.

If they are going to live in West Palm Beach the school is still rather far away. Hopefully they don't feel pressured to have Leonore attend that school why she would most likely be happier attending a school nearby.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

If they are going to live in West Palm Beach the school is still rather far away. Hopefully they don't feel pressured to have Leonore attend that school why she would most likely be happier attending a school nearby.

Someone posted earlier in the thread that Chris’s house is showing as sold, so maybe they are not going to live in West Palm Beach?

I was just pointing out that there seems to be a thriving Swedish community in south Florida.

Who knows if they would even want Leonore to attend school there.

 

[Denville]

He was deposed and banished with his wife and children in 1809

according to Wikeipedia he was King till his death in 1973.. and was succeeded by hs grandson, Carl Gustaf

 

[LadyFinn]

according to Wikeipedia he was King till his death in 1973.. and was succeeded by hs grandson, Carl Gustaf

JR76 talked about Gustav IV Adolf, who was also the last swedish ruler of Finland.

 

[Mbruno]

according to Wikeipedia he was King till his death in 1973.. and was succeeded by hs grandson, Carl Gustaf

The OP probably meant King Gustav IV Adolf.

 

[JR76]

according to Wikeipedia he was King till his death in 1973.. and was succeeded by hs grandson, Carl Gustaf

The OP probably meant King Gustav IV Adolf.

That's right I meant Gustav IV Adolf [emoji85]

 

[LadyFinn]

Expressen's royal expert Karin Lennmor writes at her chronicle among other things:

I'm thinking of this with Princess Madeleine and the restlessness I see with her.
When the news about O'Neill's new move - this time to Florida - came last week, I was only sorry that our princess once again chose to leave Sweden.
I think of course that Madeleine and family should stay at home in Stockholm for good, let the three little children grow up here. Madeleine also misses a part of the important contact with siblings Victoria and Carl Philip, not to mention her nieces and nephews. And Chris, yes, I'm convinced he can work as well from Östermalm as from Palm Beach.
I'm suffering a little with Madeleine and Chris over the rootlessness they seem to feel. It's important for a family to know that "you're home you've landed".
Of course, this is a joint decision that Madeleine and Chris have taken. They were on vacation in the Florida house that Chris owns in the end of May, and that's when all pieces fell in place.
But how much does Chris have in this? For him, as American, it's obviously natural and fun to move home again. Just hope Madeleine shares his decision to 100%.
I am convinced that the family will be doing well in Florida, wonderful year-round climate, easy-going American life ... and possibly more anonymity.
But why, really?
Doesn't Madeleine like Sweden? One can also wonder: haven't we in the press given them enough chance? I don't think so, of course, Swedish press is unusually nice if you compare with British or American media.
Just over half a year ago, Princess Madeleine told at a TV-interview from London that she missed her friends in Sweden that she longed for Swedish nature.
Now she and her husband seem to have changed their minds again.
For their own sake, and for the family, I hope princess Madeleine settles in.
KARIN LENNMOR_ Jag lider med Madeleine – trivs hon inte_

 

[LadyFinn]

From Expressen:
Madde and Chris's new luxury life in Florida
Hopefully, she and Chris also get a lot of free time - Florida is a real dream for an active young family. Nearby, there are also several other well-known Swedes and friends of the family.
For ten years, Chris O'Neill has had a summer house in West Palm Beach - just a quarter from the president's luxurious private club Mar-A-Lago - and he's well-known to Florida. But also the princess has a special relationship with Florida. She has been there several times on various charities, including the Red Cross's gala on Trumps Mar-A-Lago.
And after the breakup with her ex-boyfriend, Madeleine secretly lived at Jesper and Mia Parnevik's house in West Palm Beach to stay at peace. Now she returns for an indefinite time but with the family - for a whole new life.
Amusement Parks
Beaches
Friends
Restaurants
Golf
Prinsessan Madeleines och Chris O'Neills nya liv i Florida

 

[Princess]

For their own sake, and for the family, I hope princess Madeleine settles in.

I totally agree with Karin Lennmor. Madeleine needs to decide...
If it is a private life, go ahead and be happy. But then you need to do this without the royal status for you and your children. You still have a voice then, this status has been given to you by birth and will always be half the battle.
If it is a royal life, you need to support your parents and your sister.

You can't have it all

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I can only explain this for me that Chris is the motor of the move, they had a good life in London where it was possible to have both worlds, Madeleine close to Sweden and Chris in the business center.
Florida is a whole different thing, quite far from Sweden and not the easy air travel home, let alone with 3 children?
It's either money or Chris wants more privacy, but in the end, nothing will change, the press will not cease writing about the family what they want to write, the royal/private life issue will still be a problem.

 

[LadyFinn]

I can only explain this for me that Chris is the motor of the move, they had a good life in London where it was possible to have both worlds, Madeleine close to Sweden and Chris in the business center.
Florida is a whole different thing, quite far from Sweden and not the easy air travel home, let alone with 3 children?
It's either money or Chris wants more privacy, but in the end, nothing will change, the press will not cease writing about the family what they want to write, the royal/private life issue will still be a problem.

I agree with you. We have to remember, that also Chris's closest family members live in Europe. In London also Chris was close to his family, not only Madeleine. And both Eva O'Neill and Madeleine's parents are getting older. I would be very surprised if Chris is so stupid that he thinks that the swedish press would stop writing about them if they move further from Sweden. The press wrote about them when they lived in New York, and will write about them when they live in Florida. And when Madeleine (and Chris) comes to Sweden at some events, the press writes all over again about how they come home from their luxury life in Florida.

 

[Queen Claude]

Madeleine and her family come to Sweden for extended periods of time. She spends time in the summer in in Sweden and she spends a good amount of time in December in Sweden. Adrienne was born in Sweden, so this year she spent a few weeks in Sweden related to Adrienne's birth.


While Madeleine can't do a quick trip to Sweden like was doable when she was in London, I think that she will continue her pattern of spending extended periods of time in Sweden.


I think that the primary motive for the move to Florida is to economize but they've both spent time in Florida and I am pretty sure that it is an area that they enjoy.

 

[sjetajiem]

Madeleine and her family come to Sweden for extended periods of time. She spends time in the summer in in Sweden and she spends a good amount of time in December in Sweden. Adrienne was born in Sweden, so this year she spent a few weeks in Sweden related to Adrienne's birth.


While Madeleine can't do a quick trip to Sweden like was doable when she was in London, I think that she will continue her pattern of spending extended periods of time in Sweden.


I think that the primary motive for the move to Florida is to economize but they've both spent time in Florida and I am pretty sure that it is an area that they enjoy.

Those extended periods in Sweden will stop as soon as the children have to go to school.