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  #121  
Old 03-12-2018, 10:23 AM
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Line of succession
King Carl XVI Gustaf (born 1946)[3]
(1) Crown Princess Victoria, Duchess of Västergötland (b. 1977)[4]
(2) Princess Estelle, Duchess of Östergötland (b. 2012)[7]
(3) Prince Oscar, Duke of Skåne (b. 2016)[8]
(4) Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland (b. 1979)[9]
(5) Prince Alexander, Duke of Södermanland (b. 2016)[10]
(6) Prince Gabriel, Duke of Dalarna (b. 2017)[citation needed]
(7) Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland (b. 1982)[11]
(8) Princess Leonore, Duchess of Gotland (b. 2014)[12]
(9) Prince Nicolas, Duke of Ångermanland (b. 2015)[13]
(10) Princess Adrienne, Duchess of Blekinge (b. 2018)[14]
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  #122  
Old 03-12-2018, 10:24 AM
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The last time there were 10 in line for the Swedish throne were september 20th, 1918
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  #123  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josefine View Post
Line of succession
King Carl XVI Gustaf (born 1946)[3]
(1) Crown Princess Victoria, Duchess of Västergötland (b. 1977)[4]
(2) Princess Estelle, Duchess of Östergötland (b. 2012)[7]
(3) Prince Oscar, Duke of Skåne (b. 2016)[8]
(4) Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland (b. 1979)[9]
(5) Prince Alexander, Duke of Södermanland (b. 2016)[10]
(6) Prince Gabriel, Duke of Dalarna (b. 2017)[citation needed]
(7) Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland (b. 1982)[11]
(8) Princess Leonore, Duchess of Gotland (b. 2014)[12]
(9) Prince Nicolas, Duke of Ångermanland (b. 2015)[13]
(10) Princess Adrienne, Duchess of Blekinge (b. 2018)[14]
If it were not for the amendments of the Act of Succession in 1980, not a one of them would be in the line to the throne now.
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  #124  
Old 08-04-2018, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The long title of Swedish princes in those days was HRH Prince xxx, Arvfurste (Hereditary Prince) of Sweden, Duke of xxx. There is a precedent for conserving part of this title when forfeiting succession rights. King Oscar II's second son Oscar married a non-royal woman and gave up his succession rights and the titles of HRH, Arvfurste and Duke. However, he kept the title of Prince and was known from then as Prince Oscar Bernadotte, without the HRH.

As for retaining the ducal title after losing the HRH, while there is no actual precedent, there is the court's declaration that Jonas Bergström would share Princess Madeleine's ducal title but not become a prince. Was it seen as a planned act of ennoblement back then? If it was, the king could have convincingly argued that it would not be, given that no dukes have ever been in the nobility of Sweden - only the royal house.

A fourth question is if the King sees the possible eventual removal of Leonore, Nicolas, and Adrienne from the line of succession as extending to their future children. In the case that Leonore were raised in the United States, and later moved to Sweden where she raised her own children, withdrawing royal titles from Leonore would create questions if her children were in the line of succession.

That would be very sensible (I would propose limiting it by proximity to any monarch instead of the current monarch in order that no one is forced to lose their succession rights or titles when there is a change of reign) as it would avoid the delicate situation in some other monarchies with private citizens who are not even princesses or princes theoretically being required to be king/queen if something happened to the royals.
Exactly, in the Netherlands they had to make a special provision for princess Margriet to remain a member of the royal house when Willem-Alexander ascended the throne (this was already anticipated in 2002 and arranged back then) while she was the daughter of a queen and the sister of another queen and dedicated her whole life to royal service. Willem-Alexander's brother, however, will no longer be a member of the royal house when his niece Catharina-Amalia ascends the throne (but will remain in line to the throne; his children - Catharina-Amalia's cousins will loose their succession rights).

My suggestion for the Swedish royal family would be to reduce the official 'royal house' (or king's family) to the monarch, his children and the heir's children; and include any other grandchildren as 'members of the royal family but not the royal house' - keeping their succession rights. I don't see why their children would need to remain part of the royal family. CP's offspring could become counts Bernadotte, so their descendance in male-line of the royal family remains clear. Madeleine's grandchildren (by Nicolas) can revert back to O'Neill.

So, 2nd degree from any monarch or heir (from an approved marriage) would be my proposed requirement to be in line to the throne.
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  #125  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I believe the Court is following a literal reading of the Act of Succession, which says that "princes and princesses of the Royal House are brought up [...] within the Realm". Since Madeleine's children are no longer "princes and princesses of the Royal House", the literal interpretation is that the aforementioned requirement no longer applies to them.


Accordingly, if we keep reading the Act literally, Madeleine's and CP's children (and their respective descendants) will no longer forfeit their succession rights if they marry without the consent of the government granted upon application by the King, or become the sovereign ruler of a foreign country without the consent of the King and the Parliament of Sweden. Again, both provisions in the text apply only to "princes or princesses of the Royal House".



As I said, the reason why the Act of Succession of 1810 laid down several requirements on "princes of the Royal House" (later amended in 1979 to "princes and/or princesses of the Royal House") as opposed to "persons in the line of succession" is probably that, in the legislator's reasoning, those two classes of people were equivalent. In fact, Alexander and Gabriel are the first direct male descendants in male line of Jean Baptiste Bernadotte who ceased to be "princes of the Royal House" (HRHs) without simultaneously forefeiting their succession rights. We are in unchartered territory then.



Strictly speaking, in a literal reading of the Act of Succession, the only possibility now to disqualify Madeleine's or CP's children from inheriting the throne would be if they ceased to profess " the pure evangelical faith, as adopted and explained in the unaltered Confession of Augsburg and in the Resolution of the Uppsala Meeting of the year 1593" as the disqualification based on the aformentioned religious test extends to "Any member of the Royal Family" as opposed to "princes and/or princesses of the Royal House" only.


Thanks! Your explanation finally explains the equivocal comments from the Marshal of the Realm, and as such I believe you are correct regarding the Court's reading of the term "princes and princesses of the Royal House".

I could not agree more with your belief that the Court's reading is contrary to the intentions of the legislature. No doubt there was no premonition in 1810 or 1979 that the line of succession could extend beyond the Royal House. It would be absurd to contend that a private businessperson without any royal responsibilities should be preferred as King or Queen over a princess or prince who has carried out duties on behalf of the monarch for twenty years, when both of them married without the consent of the government.

To be entirely honest, I am persuaded that this new literal reading of the Act of Succession is not motivated by legal conventions or reasoning, but has the purpose of preventing Princess Madeleine's children from dropping out of the succession under circumstances (the apprehension that their stay in America will last indefinitely) which, on the Court's previous reading of the Act of Succession, would remove them from the line of succession. If this is what has happened here, it is not apparent to me why the King is seemingly committed to retaining the children of his youngest child in the succession. The succession is already secure without them, and if they are in fact brought up outside Sweden, they will hardly be qualified to serve as Sweden's head of state.
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  #126  
Old 12-21-2020, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I had the impression the court seems to think that Madeleine's children will remain in the line of succession while growing up in the States... is that something that only has been attributed to them or is did truly what they or more likely their representatives stated.
It was said to have been stated by the Marshal of the Realm in his meeting with the press, but I never found his exact words anywhere. Is anybody able to help?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I think that the court is being consciously vague not to set a precedent that could back them into a corner in the future and keep as much of leeway as possible.
But don't you think they have gone beyond what the public required with their explicit interpretations? They had no urgent need to announce in 2013 that not being raised in Sweden after the age of six would mean exclusion from the line of succession, or to suggest in 2019 that Leonore and her siblings would be free(r) to be raised overseas without affecting their place in line. The court could have remained completely indifferent to the issue of the Bernadotte O'Neills' succession rights until the question became meaningful, i.e., if and when something happened to Victoria and Carl Philip's branches of the family.

That being said, I have an absolute preference for the Swedish court's clumsy transparency over royal courts such as Monaco or Belgium which keep these matters completely vague.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Yes, that's indeed how they interpreted it. Of course, these regulations were never meant to provide a way out of the regulations pertaining to those with succession rights - everyone with succession rights would be expected to be a member of the royal house and a prince(ss) of Sweden, so those rules would apply to each and everyone in the line of succession. By kicking them out of the royal houses and removing the 'of Sweden' (but keeping them princes and princesses and continuing their ducal titles) they circumvented the rules... And I don't think it should be up to the royal house themselves to decide whether this is allowable.
I agree with you. In a constitutional democracy in which the monarchy is mainly a figurehead, there is no reason why matters like royal succession, membership of the house, and titles should not be accountable to the democratically elected parliament. Japan is an excellent example to follow in that regard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It is not that much different from the current situation in the UK for example, where the monarch's consent is not needed for marriages of anyone who is 7th or lower in the line of succession.

CP's sons are likely to be still among the first six people in line to the throne by the time they are engaged to marry, but Leonore probably won't be. In any case, none of them is likely to succeed, so an argument can be made that whoever they marry is inconsequential as a matter of state interest.
I've written here why I feel the UK and now Swedish situation is strange. https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2354680



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Even if consent were needed, I don't see the King (or Victoria if she is already Queen by then) or the Swedish government refusing to consent to a marriage between Leonore and Christian of Denmark, or George of Cambridge, or any other prince in direct line to a foreign throne.
I expect consent would not even be requested in that situation. All sides would take it for granted that a personal union of crowns would be unacceptable in current times.
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  #127  
Old 12-21-2020, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josefine View Post
The last time there were 10 in line for the Swedish throne were september 20th, 1918
There will be 11 hopefully in 2021 so that record is broken again.
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  #128  
Old 12-23-2020, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
There will be 11 hopefully in 2021 so that record is broken again.
It would technically be a tie with the period between 31 October 1916 and 20 September 1918, because the number dropped to 10 on 20 September 1918 due to Prince Erik's death.

The Line of Succession since 1907

[1907-1918: Early Reign of Gustaf V]

060422 [7] Birth of Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Västerbotten
070607 [8] Birth of Sigvard, Duke of Uppland
071208 [7] Death of Oscar II, Duke of Östergötland
090508 [8] Birth of Lennart, Duke of Småland
110110 [9] Birth of Carl, Duke of Östergötland
120228 [10] Birth of Bertil, Duke of Halland
161031 [11] Birth of Carl Johan, Duke of Dalarna

[1918-1950: Later Reign of Gustaf V]

180920 [10] Death of Erik, Duke of Västmanland
320311 [9] Lennart loses Swedish titles
340308 [8] Sigvard loses Swedish titles
370706 [7] Carl (Duke of Östergötland) loses Swedish titles
460219 [6] Carl Johan loses Swedish titles
460430 [7] Birth of Carl XVI Gustaf, Duke of Jämtland
470126 [6] Death of Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Västerbotten
470817 [5] Death of Eugen, Duke of Närke

[1950-1973: Reign of Gustaf VI Adolf]

501029 [4] Death of Gustaf V, Duke of Värmland
511024 [3] Death of Carl, Duke of Västergötland
650605 [2] Death of Wilhelm, Duke of Södermanland

[1973-2012: Early Reign of Carl XVI Gustaf]

730915 [1] Death of Gustaf VI Adolf, Duke of Skåne
790513 [2] Birth of Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland
800101 [3] Victoria becomes Crown Princess and Duchess of Västergötland
820610 [4] Birth of Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland & Gästrikland
970105 [3] Death of Bertil, Duke of Halland

[2012-20??: Later Reign of Carl XVI Gustaf]

120223 [4] Birth of Estelle, Duchess of Östergötland
140220 [5] Birth of Leonore, Duchess of Gotland
150615 [6] Birth of Nicolas, Duke of Ångermanland
160302 [7] Birth of Oscar, Duke of Skåne
160419 [8] Birth of Alexander, Duke of Södermanland
170831 [9] Birth of Gabriel, Duke of Dalarna
180309 [10] Birth of Adrienne, Duchess of Blekinge
210404? [11] Birth of the third child of Carl Philip
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