Relationships between the Members of the Danish Royal Family

[Muhler]

Summary of a Q&A in Billed Bladet #41, 2013.

Q: What is the relationship between the DRF and the Rosenborgs?

A: Their relationship is fine but they don't associate much and never have.

During the debate leading up to the change in the Law of Succession in 1953, the later Frederik IX and Queen Ingrid did what they could to protect their children from being affected family-wise.
As has been pointed out elsewhere, the change in the Law of Succession was the will of the people and the politicians with the DRF being somewhat relegated to the role of spectators.

- It is however no secret that there was a considerable bitterness in Prince Knud towards the rest of the DRF.
And that it was Count Ingolf of Rosenborg who, despite being cursed with a looks like a village idiot is no fool at all, was instrumental in reconceiling the two branches of the family. - But they still don't associate much.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Yes. and Mary is godmother to little Prince Henrik

And Marie is one of Josephine's godmothers.


I think Mary and Marie get along nicely. Athena has clearly got hand-me-downs from Josephine (the pink snowsuit) and these pictures of the two of them trying to work the opera glasses were so lovely. But as I recall that one of them (M, F, J or M) said, there's a long way from Schackenborg to Amalienborg, so they don't see each other a lot.

 

[Tarlita]

I think the two princesses realize they have very different interests. Mary - the sporty/outdoorsy type and Marie interested in other things. So I would imagine there main topic of conversation is how the children are getting on. Just a guess.

 

[ricarda]

What exactly are Marie's (other) very different interests? And which of them does Mary not have?

I know Marie likes dogs, children and socializing. So does Mary.
But what makes you think "the two princesses realize they have very different interests"?

 

[Muhler]

I was asked a question today that I simply couldn't answer, so now I turn to the highest authority on royal matters, the TRF members.

The question was basically: What do Mary and our Marie call QMII when they are together, alone or in a family setting, when the show is not on?

As you know family members call her Daisy, and Joachim and Frederik call her "mor". And her grandchildren call her "farmor".
But would Mary and Marie also call her Daisy?
Margrethe?

So my question to you is:
You are a well-bred Australian or Frenchwoman, you have a very formidable mother-in-law, with whom you have a good relationship (by all accounts), but she is still a very formidable woman! And in charge!
So what would feel natural for you to call her?

The DRF is inclusive enough to accept, I'm sure, English and French expressions as well.
BTW the Danish word for mother-in-law is "svigermor". In a normal Danish family you call your mother-in-law by her first name, but this is not a normal Danish family...

Or do anyone actually happen to know the answer?

 

[Mbruno]

I was asked a question today that I simply couldn't answer, so now I turn to the highest authority on royal matters, the TRF members.

The question was basically: What do Mary and our Marie call QMII when they are together, alone or in a family setting, when the show is not on?

As you know family members call her Daisy, and Joachim and Frederik call her "mor". And her grandchildren call her "farmor".
But would Mary and Marie also call her Daisy?
Margrethe?

So my question to you is:
You are a well-bred Australian or Frenchwoman, you have a very formidable mother-in-law, with whom you have a good relationship (by all accounts), but she is still a very formidable woman! And in charge!
So what would feel natural for you to call her?

The DRF is inclusive enough to accept, I'm sure, English and French expressions as well.
BTW the Danish word for mother-in-law is "svigermor". In a normal Danish family you call your mother-in-law by her first name, but this is not a normal Danish family...

Or do anyone actually happen to know the answer?

I have no idea what they call her, but if I had a mother-in-law who happened to be the Queen, I would call her 'Madam', and if I had a father-in-law who was the King, I would call him 'Sire'.

 

[Osipi]

From watching interactions between the people in this family, I don't think any of them would be formal with each other when in private so I'm going to take a guess at what Mary and Marie may call their mother-in-law.

For Mary: The endearment common to the UK and Australia which would be "Mum".

For Marie: Being French and also along the same lines as Mary using a term she most likely grew up with, I think Marie may use "Maman"

Both terms mean "Mom".

 

[Curryong]

I think, when they are completely in private both Marie and Mary call the Queen by her forename. I can imagine that she would have requested them to do so when they became engaged to her sons. I don't know what they called Henrik though, 'Papa', I suppose.

 

[Nordic]

Mary has been part of the family for about 15 years, Marie for about 10 (?). If QM is called 'Daisy' by other members of her family, surely Mary and Marie would call her that too.

 

[Muhler]

I agree with Osipi that they would call her something that is informal and endearing.

They may indeed call her Daisy now. However QMII don't strike me as someone who is on familiar footing from day one with just everyone.
And both Mary and our Marie really only got to know their future mother-in-law when they got engaged. That's pretty daunting for anyone, not least when you marry into a royal family!
- After all it took a couple of years until I began to use the endearing name for my own mother-in-law that I use today.

So in the beginning, would it be too much so to speak, to call QMII Daisy or Margrethe?

Perhaps Marie is the key?
If you were a future French daughter-in-law about to marry into a French family, with a conservative-traditional father-in-law, who at least within the family is the patriarch, what would be natural to call him from day one?
Even if he is a very supportive and loving father-in-law as he evidently was.
From that we may better deduce what QMII is likely to be called by Mary and Marie?

I'm not familiar with how you do it in Australian and French families, but to me at least maman and mum sounds pretty plausible.

 

[Curryong]

Except that Mary's mother is dead, and was when Mary got engaged. She reportedly adored her mother. She might not have felt comfortable calling Daisy 'mum' after the engagement. Perhaps they had a conversation on what Mary was to call her, perhaps in a household which frequently spoke French Margrethe and Henrik were Maman and Papa to both Mary and Marie at the beginning. Maybe Mary thought that was the best solution. However, after a year or so QM could well have asked her to call her by her first name. I guess unless somebody says something we'll never know!

 

[Muhler]

A good point and that sounds plausible as well.

 

[Queen Claude]

My guess is Mor or Daisy. Is there a more formal term for mother in Danish?

I know that they are different royal houses but I think that British married in-s call their parents-in-law Mama and Papa. Chris O'Neill, son-in-law of Carl-Gustaf of Sweden says he calls his father-in-law sir.

 

[JR76]

I have no idea what M&M calls the Queen but I find Daisy implausible. I'd go with them saying Mor like their husband's do. It's informal, implies closeness and leaves mum & maman for their mothers.

 

[Muhler]

My guess is Mor or Daisy. Is there a more formal term for mother in Danish?

I know that they are different royal houses but I think that British married in-s call their parents-in-law Mama and Papa. Chris O'Neill, son-in-law of Carl-Gustaf of Sweden says he calls his father-in-law sir.

No, not anymore. ?

It used to be "moder", but I can't imagine Mary and Marie call QMII moder.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

My guess would be either svigermor or Margrethe. Can't imagine they'd call her mor – that sounds very clunky if you're not addressing your own mum – and I think it's more likely that they call her Margrethe than Daisy.

Daisy just seems very informal to me and while I don't doubt QMII adores both of her daughters-in-law, I very much doubt she has introduced herself as Daisy when they first met. Seems a bit too chummy for QMII's liking (they aren't school mates, you know ). And by the time she'd known them long enough for them to get to call her Daisy, I would guess it would be weird for them to start calling her by an entirely different name. I could definitely imagine they'd call her svigermor though.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

My guess is Mor or Daisy. Is there a more formal term for mother in Danish?

I know that they are different royal houses but I think that British married in-s call their parents-in-law Mama and Papa. Chris O'Neill, son-in-law of Carl-Gustaf of Sweden says he calls his father-in-law sir.

Yes, and Queen Silvia is 'Mom'. Maybe Mary, being a non-danish, uses the same address.

I read that King Juan Carlos is being addressed as 'Senor' or 'Patron', Queen Sofia as 'Senora'.

I'd never calll my mother in law 'Mum' since it's not what she is, I call her by her first name.

 

[ElizabethC]

How do you think is the relationship between Mary and Frederik?
They don t look very close like in the past.

 

[Muhler]

Pretty good I'd say, judging from the adoring glances from Mary.

Congratulations on your first post.
You will soon learn here on TRF that malicious rumors about M&F sometimes found elsewhere (or wishful thinking perhaps...) are exaggerated.

 

[ElizabethC]

Yes, it is my first post but i m reading about DRF on this forum from months. ��❤

I asked because i read on a spanish forum that they aren t so close like always and i wanted to know other opinions.

 

[Muhler]

And so you should. ?
There is no such thing as stupid questions, only stupid replies.

Well, it depends on where you read it. Some of the press can be pretty sensational, and, shall we say, imaginative, in their articles. According to the press M&F should have been on the brink of divorce many times. They should also have at least 15 children!
And we all know QMII and Mary absolutely love and hate each other every alternate week. ?

There is of course also the distance to take into account. Some thing said an written about the Spanish royals up here, may be, shall we say misinterpreted...

And then there are those who would very much like to see, in this case, Mary fall flat on her nose, for whatever reason they may have for wishing that.
As you know that doesn't only apply to Mary. Letizia, Kate, Meghan Maxima and so on have their detractors as well.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think it is only natural. The Crown Prince is in his fifties. His personality, role and stature is in evolution. That is not different to Mary.

 

[Queen Claude]

I am trying to understand the "in the past" part, is that referring to the dating years and the early years of their marriage? It is hard to make goo goo eyes at each other when you have four kids in tow. Having said that one of the nicest parts of being a Crown Prince Couple watcher is those unexpected displays of affection between Fred and Mary or even something that is not necessarily PDA but just something that shows a connection like a glance. I guess it can be debated as to whether it is healthy or not, but it seems to me that Fred seems to sometimes use Mary as a soothie where he will go over to her and take her hand or try and get her attention, these gestures tend to be fleeting. I think that it is a good reflection on Mary, who (to me) seems to have a very professional demeanor in public is often sought out by her husband and children for comfort and support.

 

[polyesco]

Agree, and good post Muhler.
It's hard to debate a relationship between two, only the two in the relationship can really say. Also a marriage and relationship evolves overtime, for me they have one that has grown stronger over the years.

Just taking a look back at Mary's beautiful birthday speech to her husband in May, well Frederik looked quite in love and proud

https://www.billedbladet.dk/sites/b...yles/landscape_16-9_8grid/public/_mho6040.jpg
https://images.scribblelive.com/2018/5/26/66281978-20bb-4075-acca-0605d57490e1_1000.jpg
https://www.hollandse-hoogte.nl/downloadpicturepreview.pp?id=78774638

 

[Lady Ingahild]

Can someone please confirm if Prince Henrik actually did state that, by marrying a commoner, the crown prince was cheapening the monarchy? I would be surprised if he had expressed this opinion publickly.

 

[Muhler]

Can someone please confirm if Prince Henrik actually did state that, by marrying a commoner, the crown prince was cheapening the monarchy? I would be surprised if he had expressed this opinion publickly.

I have never heard that one.

I think that statement is so strong that it would have been quoted often in connection with PH.

PH, like all people, had his flaws, but he wasn't a snob.

 

[JR76]

Can someone please confirm if Prince Henrik actually did state that, by marrying a commoner, the crown prince was cheapening the monarchy? I would be surprised if he had expressed this opinion publickly.

I have never heard that one.

I think that statement is so strong that it would have been quoted often in connection with PH.

PH, like all people, had his flaws, but he wasn't a snob.

I agree with Muhler. I'll be prepared to eat crow if that turned out to be true. Prince Henrik was many things but he was never a snob. As we've seen before his death and heard even more after he passed away he was genuinely interested and happy to connect with people from all walks of life and that he cared deeply about everyone around him. Added to that he was visibly devoted to his three daughters-in-laws who, as we all know, were all born as commoners.

 

[Rudolph]

Wasn’t Henrik’s title in dispute at some point anyways? I thought I read somewhere he wasn’t actually an aristocrat.

 

[JR76]

Wasn’t Henrik’s title in dispute at some point anyways? I thought I read somewhere he wasn’t actually an aristocrat.

There are different interpretations regarding if the family of Laborde de Monpezat fullfilled the stipulations of their Letter of ennoblement in 1655. Given that they probably didn´t the question is if they can be considered as noble anyway having lived as nobles on noble lands and having paid noble poll tax several times during the 18th century. The verdict is still out on that but the general view, shared by Prince Henrik himself when faced with the information, is that they weren´t official members of the nobility. Whats definitely sure is that the comital title is not an official one. It´s worth pointing out that there are many families who assumed these "titres de courtoisie" during the 19th century and that the use of them are carefully accepted.
A footnote is that I remember reading old French articles from the early years of the marriage betweeen Daisy and Henri where already then real French aristocrats are outright puzzled over who this supposed Comte de Monpezat is.

 

[IslandDweller]

Wasn’t Henrik’s title in dispute at some point anyways? I thought I read somewhere he wasn’t actually an aristocrat.

Others have noted the disputed validity of his title, but I remember being surprised when delving into his mother's background how modest it was. In at least one online family tree, her father's occupation is given as railway employee and her grandfathers' as upholsterer and locksmith, respectively. Though people with the humblest roots can sometimes be the biggest snobs, I'm going to assume Prince Henrik was more sensible than to look down on his daughter-in-law's background, which is no more humble than his own mother's.