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  #101  
Old 01-05-2021, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Prior to the reign of Margrethe II, it was always the case that the king was the sovereign and the queen was merely his consort. I think it would be strange if the consort were to outrank the sovereign, no matter their titles or genders.

But if the mentality is that the rank is linked to the title rather than the position, then my view is that Margrethe II deserves the "higher-ranked" title of king, rather than the "lower-ranked" title of queen.
I don't disagree but I somehow don't think Henrik would've been any more satisfied with the title of Queen

I also don't think you can chalk it down to a mentality issue. The title of King outranking the title of Queen is deeply rooted in history and isn't just a matter of people refusing to change their usual way of thinking. Historically "King consorts" have almost exclusively been elevated to co-regents.

Henrik wanted to be King and he was well-aware of the connotations of that title. He wanted "equality" (but only for himself, he was hardly a trailblazer for equality in general) but a consort is not supposed to be equal to the sovereign.
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  #102  
Old 01-06-2021, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
I also don't think you can chalk it down to a mentality issue. The title of King outranking the title of Queen is deeply rooted in history and isn't just a matter of people refusing to change their usual way of thinking.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a "mentality issue", and I'm not sure how deeply rooted it may be, but even deeply-rooted historical ways of thinking are not immune to reform. The thought that the succession rights of a Prince outranked the succession rights of a Princess was deeply rooted in history, but is no longer considered relevant, at least by Parliament.

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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Historically "King consorts" have almost exclusively been elevated to co-regents.
There has never been a king consort in the kingdom's history, as Margrethe II is the first official queen regnant. Outside of Denmark, both kings consort and princes consort have handled the conduct of government for their wives, but from the examples I have come to know a formal elevation to co-regent was not common, though I am open to finding out more.


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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
I don't disagree but I somehow don't think Henrik would've been any more satisfied with the title of Queen

[...]

He wanted "equality" (but only for himself, he was hardly a trailblazer for equality in general)
Yes, had he genuinely wanted equality of titles he should not have agreed to the creation of the Count/Countess of Monpezat title, at least not without asking for Frederik and Joachim's children to also carry the names of their mothers. And he should have asked for it to have a gender-equal remainder, rather than its remainder to only heirs of the male line.


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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
but a consort is not supposed to be equal to the sovereign.
Indeed, the genuine matter of inequality was not the reasonable inequality between the consort and the sovereign, but the inequality between male sovereigns and female sovereigns.
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  #103  
Old 01-06-2021, 07:14 AM
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Do I have a doubt when Princess Isabella and Princess Josephine marry their husbands will they have any title?
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  #104  
Old 01-06-2021, 07:39 AM
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I believe that it was in Spain that the earliest example of a husband of a Queen Regnant was ever given the title of King . That would have been Felipe 1 when he married Juana I He did rule equally with her . The only other example I can remember would be of William of Orange who became De-facto ruler of Great Britain when his wife Mary 11 was proclaimed Queen . I do not believe that this was anything more than a ceremonial " promotion" in other countries . In Portugal there have been 2 King-Consorts , Mary 1 , her husband became King-Consort Peter 111 in 1777 . Queen Mary 11 husband became King -Consort Ferdinand 11 in 1837 . In Spain the husband of Isabel 11 , Francis became King -Consort after the birth of the first child .
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  #105  
Old 01-06-2021, 07:44 AM
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I certainly doubt that the husbands of the Princesses will be given titles , in recent history this has only happened in Spain where Infanta Elena's husband was granted the title of Duke of Lugo , losing it upon their divorce . Infanta Christina's husband became Duke of Palma . Of course they both lost that honorific under rather different circumstances
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  #106  
Old 01-06-2021, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by fabaunty View Post
I certainly doubt that the husbands of the Princesses will be given titles , in recent history this has only happened in Spain where Infanta Elena's husband was granted the title of Duke of Lugo , losing it upon their divorce . Infanta Christina's husband became Duke of Palma . Of course they both lost that honorific under rather different circumstances
We also have the example of Sweden where Chris O'Neill was offered the title of Prince but he refused.
In Denmark I have no idea what will happen.
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  #107  
Old 01-06-2021, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by fabaunty View Post
I certainly doubt that the husbands of the Princesses will be given titles , in recent history this has only happened in Spain where Infanta Elena's husband was granted the title of Duke of Lugo , losing it upon their divorce . Infanta Christina's husband became Duke of Palma . Of course they both lost that honorific under rather different circumstances

But the husband of Infanta's Elena and Cristina whre not granted titles. They here given to their respective wives and the husband shared them which is also customary in the spanish nobility where for example the husbands of the late Duchess of Alba where also called Duke of Alba
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  #108  
Old 01-06-2021, 09:20 AM
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You are quite correct Stefan , I expressed myself badly , I meant to say that they were granted the right to be known by the masculine version of the title's bestowed upon their wives by their father King Juan Carlos . Of course these titles were never intended to be inherited by any children .
As for the case of Chris O'Neill , as i understand it ,he refused the offer of a personal title of prince because he wanted to continue his business career, which would have been incompatible with becoming a Swedish prince .Which is confusing to me as Prince Carl Philip has had a career as a commercial designer for many years .
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  #109  
Old 01-06-2021, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by fabaunty View Post
As for the case of Chris O'Neill , as i understand it ,he refused the offer of a personal title of prince because he wanted to continue his business career, which would have been incompatible with becoming a Swedish prince .Which is confusing to me as Prince Carl Philip has had a career as a commercial designer for many years .
We don't know if Chris O'Neill was offered both the Titles Prince of Sweden and or to share the ducal Titles of his wive. This is what had been announced for Jonas Bergström athis engagement to Madeleine. But i think Chris also declinced the Titles because then it was expected that he would ask for swedish nationality
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  #110  
Old 01-06-2021, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
We don't know if Chris O'Neill was offered both the Titles Prince of Sweden and or to share the ducal Titles of his wive. This is what had been announced for Jonas Bergström athis engagement to Madeleine. But i think Chris also declinced the Titles because then it was expected that he would ask for swedish nationality
Chris O'Neill was offered to share the Princessly title of his wife. The king of Sweden did indeed expect him to apply for Swedish nationality and give up his commercial career if he accepted and became a prince.

Titles of the Swedish RF and Changes 2019

We don't know what was offered to Jonas Bergström, only the end decision that he would continue his commercial career and become only a duke and not a prince.
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  #111  
Old 01-06-2021, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a "mentality issue", and I'm not sure how deeply rooted it may be, but even deeply-rooted historical ways of thinking are not immune to reform. The thought that the succession rights of a Prince outranked the succession rights of a Princess was deeply rooted in history, but is no longer considered relevant, at least by Parliament.

(...)

Indeed, the genuine matter of inequality was not the reasonable inequality between the consort and the sovereign, but the inequality between male sovereigns and female sovereigns.
I mean, going off of the Danish constitution, even after the amendment in 1953, the sovereign is exclusively referred to as the King. I'd say that's a pretty good example of how deep-rooted the issue of a King outranking a Queen is.

Then, as you've touched upon yourself, one can of course make the argument that constitutionally speaking, QMII's title is incorrect. Which is a very legitimate argument since the Act of Succession from 1953 doesn't elaborate on the title of a female sovereign and as such, QMII functions as the King in the constitutional sense of the word and merely calls herself the Queen.

So if Henrik's true intention was securing equality between male and female sovereigns, his argument should either have been that QMII's title should be King Margrethe II (making him Queen Henrik), or he should've argued for a change of the constitution to equate the title of Queen with the title of King, thereby equating the title of King consort with the title of Queen consort.

But he didn't. And I don't believe that was his true intention

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Yes, had he genuinely wanted equality of titles he should not have agreed to the creation of the Count/Countess of Monpezat title, at least not without asking for Frederik and Joachim's children to also carry the names of their mothers. And he should have asked for it to have a gender-equal remainder, rather than its remainder to only heirs of the male line.
That, I agree with.
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  #112  
Old 01-06-2021, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
Do I have a doubt when Princess Isabella and Princess Josephine marry their husbands will they have any title?
Your guess is as good as anybody's.

It is solely up to the monarch, and that is most likely to be Frederik.

I believe it depends on whether Isabella and/or Josephine will be working members of the DRF. If so, it's IMO likely that their husbands will be given a title.
Isabella I think is destined to be a spare, just in case, and as such will at the very least be a part time working royal. She may have another, supposedly main income, but as a spare she won't be able to just have any job or be employed by anyone. She will be a kind of Joachim.
So unless Isabella opts out of the DRF one way or another, the twins are destined to work out a living for themselves and in that case their spouses won't need a title.

Another question is whether Isabella, Vincent, Josephine and Joachim's children will opt out of the Line of Succession voluntarily or otherwise. In that case the boys at least can keep the title of Count of Monpezat.
The girls can of course be given a (non-hereditary) title by the monarch, that could be say countess of Marselisborg and Schackenborg in the case of Athena. And I doubt their spouses would get a title. Why should they?
In short: They will be doing a Rosenborg.
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  #113  
Old 01-06-2021, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
I mean, going off of the Danish constitution, even after the amendment in 1953, the sovereign is exclusively referred to as the King. I'd say that's a pretty good example of how deep-rooted the issue of a King outranking a Queen is.
I would say the opposite. That the sovereign is referred to in the constitution as the King, but is currently referred to in most (all?) situations outside of the constitution as the Queen, shows that the titles are effectively considered not just equally ranked but the same in meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Then, as you've touched upon yourself, one can of course make the argument that constitutionally speaking, QMII's title is incorrect. Which is a very legitimate argument since the Act of Succession from 1953 doesn't elaborate on the title of a female sovereign and as such, QMII functions as the King in the constitutional sense of the word and merely calls herself the Queen.

So if Henrik's true intention was securing equality between male and female sovereigns, his argument should either have been that QMII's title should be King Margrethe II (making him Queen Henrik), or he should've argued for a change of the constitution to equate the title of Queen with the title of King, thereby equating the title of King consort with the title of Queen consort.

But he didn't. And I don't believe that was his true intention
I agree. As you said, he himself (inaccurately, in my opinion) framed the issue as one of equality between him and his wife, and he did not seem to consider the inequality between male and female sovereigns.
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  #114  
Old 01-06-2021, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But the husband of Infanta's Elena and Cristina whre not granted titles. They here given to their respective wives and the husband shared them which is also customary in the spanish nobility where for example the husbands of the late Duchess of Alba where also called Duke of Alba
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Originally Posted by fabaunty View Post
You are quite correct Stefan , I expressed myself badly , I meant to say that they were granted the right to be known by the masculine version of the title's bestowed upon their wives by their father King Juan Carlos . Of course these titles were never intended to be inherited by any children .
And the titles were granted to the Infantas for their husbands to use. It made no difference to the Infantas themselves, since Spain does not follow the British pattern of royal princes(ses) being known by their ducal titles. Infantas Elena and Cristina were still styled with their Infanta titles.

Note that the Spanish royal family always applied the same systems of titles to the spouses and children of Infantas as to the spouses and children of male Infantes. A wife of a hypothetical younger brother of King Felipe VI would not have shared the Infante title of her husband, nor would their children have been titled.
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  #115  
Old 01-06-2021, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by fabaunty View Post
I certainly doubt that the husbands of the Princesses will be given titles , in recent history this has only happened in Spain [...]
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
We also have the example of Sweden where Chris O'Neill was offered the title of Prince but he refused.
In Denmark I have no idea what will happen.
There are recent (European) examples found in Denmark and Belgium as well.

The husband of Princess Astrid of Belgium was granted the title of Prince of Belgium two years after the couple returned to Belgium from Switzerland and took up an official role.

The husband of Princess Benedikte of Denmark was offered the title of Prince (of Denmark) but refused because, much like Chris O'Neill, he would have been expected to give up running his family estate and settle in Denmark:
About his rejection of a Danish princely title:

"I never regretted, and I never took the proposal seriously. Neither did I take it seriously when it was suggested from Danish quarters that I should give up Berleburg and settle in Denmark. I spat out a ‘No’ as fast as I could."
In Norway, the husband of Princess Märtha Louise was not given a title, but I am not sure if that was a matter of gender. It is unclear if a possible wife of Prince Sverre Magnus can expect to be given a title.


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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Another question is whether Isabella, Vincent, Josephine and Joachim's children will opt out of the Line of Succession voluntarily or otherwise. In that case the boys at least can keep the title of Count of Monpezat.
The girls can of course be given a (non-hereditary) title by the monarch, that could be say countess of Marselisborg and Schackenborg in the case of Athena. And I doubt their spouses would get a title. Why should they?
In short: They will be doing a Rosenborg.
We may have an idea of what might happen if and when Prince Nikolai marries.

Wouldn't the wives of the Counts of Monpezat take the title Countess of Monpezat?
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  #116  
Old 01-06-2021, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
We may have an idea of what might happen if and when Prince Nikolai marries.

Wouldn't the wives of the Counts of Monpezat take the title Countess of Monpezat?
Women become countesses if they marry a count or is given the title - personally only.
It cannot be passed on to children nor can it be shared with a husband. (Or wife for that matter.)
That seems to the way internationally.

So to answer your question: Yes, they can.

What if a count marry a man?
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  #117  
Old 05-15-2021, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
The DRF does have a tendency not to deal with problems until they're standing square in the middle of them, I'll give Joachim that. (For example, the primogeniture was changed but they still haven't got a solution for the consequences of it. As it is right now, Isabella, who presumably will function as a spare, isn't able to pass on any titles while her younger brother and three male cousins, provided they're given permission to marry, all theoretically are allowed to pass on theirs. This could have been dealt with when they introduced the Monpezat titles but they were only made hereditary in the male line.)
Since the Prince/ss titles are regulated by the Queen's will exclusively, I suppose that in the eyes of the law all of the royal children are already equal in their ability/inability to pass on their titles.

It would not be an unprecedented situation if the future King Frederik X were to let his daughters pass on their titles. When Princess Benedikte married, the King chose to condition a Danish princely title for her husband and a place in the line of succession to the Danish throne for her children on the couple taking up residence in Denmark. The couple did not comply, but they were given the right to choose. Her husband's comments on his refusal are quoted in post #115.

I am not sure the Queen's choice of male-line-only inheritance pertaining to the Monpezat title automatically insinuates that she or the next King will choose male-line-only inheritance for the titles of the Royal House. In the Netherlands and Belgium, for instance, there have recently been cases of a higher title being passed onto a princess's children at the same time that lesser titles are hereditary in male line only.
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  #118  
Old 05-15-2021, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Since the Prince/ss titles are regulated by the Queen's will exclusively, I suppose that in the eyes of the law all of the royal children are already equal in their ability/inability to pass on their titles.

It would not be an unprecedented situation if the future King Frederik X were to let his daughters pass on their titles. When Princess Benedikte married, the King chose to condition a Danish princely title for her husband and a place in the line of succession to the Danish throne for her children on the couple taking up residence in Denmark. The couple did not comply, but they were given the right to choose. Her husband's comments on his refusal are quoted in post #115.

I am not sure the Queen's choice of male-line-only inheritance pertaining to the Monpezat title automatically insinuates that she or the next King will choose male-line-only inheritance for the titles of the Royal House. In the Netherlands and Belgium, for instance, there have recently been cases of a higher title being passed onto a princess's children at the same time that lesser titles are hereditary in male line only.

The Danish tradition is that all persons in the line of succession to throne are Prins/Prinsesse til Danmark. Under the present Act of Succession, the title should apply then to Queen Margrethe's descendants in maternal line unless, for example, they marry without consent and are excluded from the succession.



The title of Count of Monpezat, on the other hand, conforms to the traditional rule in the Danish nobility, which is transmission in male line only.
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  #119  
Old 05-16-2021, 01:26 AM
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Women become countesses if they marry a count or is given the title - personally only.
It cannot be passed on to children nor can it be shared with a husband. (Or wife for that matter.)
That seems to the way internationally.

So to answer your question: Yes, they can.

What if a count marry a man?

IMHO this follows along the lines that as a man cannot take on/share his wife's titles, he cannot do it for his husband's. We'll see what happens if Prince Christian decides to marry a man and to rely on his sisters or brother's offspring for an heir to the throne. But as long as parliament and the queen do not decide to change the laws about nobility, Christian's husband might be elevated to the position of prince and later Prince Consort, but I don't see him becoming a Count of Monpezat.
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  #120  
Old 06-01-2021, 12:55 PM
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But as long as parliament and the queen do not decide to change the laws about nobility, Christian's husband might be elevated to the position of prince and later Prince Consort, but I don't see him becoming a Count of Monpezat.
Yes, while I'm no expert on the laws of nobility, my understanding is that they have yet to even remove the rule which strips married women of their own titles upon marriage. Having said that, members of the public and the media now frequently use titles for married daughters of the nobility in spite of the rule.

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Originally Posted by FasterB View Post
Not only due to that, but also because here in Denmark (at least before the change of the AoS in 2005) a Crown Princess is married to a Crown Prince.
Not in every case (see the discussion here).

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Previously titles were not passed on through the female line - unless direct heir to the throne.
The last time when female-line descendants other than direct heirs were in line to the throne was in 1853, and under the semi-Salic system of succession then in place, they ranked behind all of the male lines.

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I guess this question is faced by most royal families these days with the change to equal succession and countries/monarchies are handling it diffrently, so it will be interesting to see what option the Danes pick and whether they still support that decision one or two generations later (which we might not live to see); the Belgians turned from their new ways pretty quickly...
Without going too off-topic, I think it is too soon to tell whether the Belgians will turn from their new ways and treat female-line descendants in the next generation differently from male-line descendants. It is at least possible to interpret the current laws in a fashion which would provide for equal treatment.
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