New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Somebody]

Considering children can't inherit titles/styles from their mother (unless their mother is the reigning sovereign), their children won't have titles unless their husbands are granted some kind of nobility title when they marry.

So, whoever HRH Princess Isabella marries, for example, will be Master/Miss (or the Danish equivalent) and then their father's last name.

The 'unless'is the reason I am raising this question. Even in the past various decisions have been made in the various European royal family. So, I wonderr how they will go about this issue in the future in the various royal houses. The Swedish decided on granting princely titles to children of daughters (as did the Dutch in a previous generation but in the next they decided that count was sufficient even in male line), the Norwegians are untitled and the British previously gave titles to the husband of a princess but do so no longer, and the Spanish grandchildren are excellencies, while the Belgians went full out and even have grandchildren by an out-of-wedlock born daighter as prince(ss). So, while I'd like to see some consistency at least within each house it is clear that the (recent) developments in how daughters are to be trrated compared to sons are changing the old ways of having princely titles only kept and passed on in male-line upon an ebenburtig and approved marriage.

 

[Muhler]

I have read a number of comments in various papers.

While the commentators understand why the titles are taken from Joachim's children there is considerable bewilderment in regards to the the reaction from Alexandra - who claims to speak on behalf of herself and Joachim.

The court has said that Joachim has been involved all the way. - Which can mean anything from actually being consulted to simply being informed about the decision.
So unless Joachim comes out and says clearly that he has indeed been fully informed and consulted, the rumors that there is a strain between Joachim and Frederik, and that J&M were ordered to France (which they have more or less suggested in at east a couple of articles) will gain credit.

Joachim is likely to come out and support the decision of QMII - anything less would be sensational!
However, I will be very much looking forward to the upcoming interviews with J&M and also Alexandra. (I think Alexandra is genuinely miffed but I also think she has been kept out. She is not a senior member of the DRF, so she will basically have to eat what QMII dish out.)

I think this has been handled in a very peculiar way!

Okay, stripping Joachim's children of their titles. Fair enough, no surprise there.
But why not make sure it is fully coordinated? I.e. the court issue a statement, with the fully informed parents of the children, also issuing their statements at the same time. Some blah-blah about understanding and accepting the decision.

As it is now, I at least, have the distinct impression that certainly Alexandra, Nikolai and Felix - perhaps Marie as well, have not been informed prior to this decision being announced.
Which strikes me as a major communications blunder. Both in regards to the public but also internally within the family.

Anyway, the DRF will get away with it.

M&F are the superstars of the DRF, they have taken over in so many ways, that they are the regent couple in pretty much anything but name now. - And more importantly are seen and accepted as being the de facto regent couple.
On top of that there are plenty of other things to occupy people's minds these days, that any public debate about this will be short.

Alexandra is a faded celebrity by now. She does however take a very keen interest in her boys, so I can well imagine that she feels insulted.
J&M are in exile in France - and who knows whether they will return or whatever they are going to do? Perhaps opt out of the DRF as active members?
Nikolai. I don't know if he is miffed. Perhaps. From a cynical commercial point of view he may become less interesting as a model, when he is "just" a count.
From what little I know of Felix, I don't think he minds.
Henrik and Athena? They are children and probably just wish to be like the other children they associate, so losing their royal titles, probably will make little to no impact on them.
They were destined to be in the fringes of the DRF anyway.

- I do however wonder, as one member suggested here, that QMII is making a number of unpleasant decisions and reforms within the DRF, preventing Frederik form having to make them. And making a decision like this on her own and suddenly, may repeat may, help Frederik in mending a very plausible rift in the relationship between him and Joachim.
I'm actually very surprised I have not seen the word abdication in any of the comments yet. - Because the timing is at the same time both odd, and very logical, depending on that exact word: Abdication.

ADDED:
Athena will be Countess of Monpezat, but unlike her brothers she cannot pass that title on to her children.

 

[eya]

I think the Queen's decision is wise.

Eventually sooner or later all monarchies will do this.

Something fun!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1575120756979240961

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Here is the Danish version of the announcement:

https://www.kongehuset.dk/nyheder/ændringer-i-titler-og-tiltaleformer-i-den-kongelige-familie



Thank you to Muhler for the additional information. The court stating that Prince Joachim was informed in May, but not commenting on when his children or their mothers were informed (according to what has been posted in this thread thus far), appears to support Countess Alexandra's statement that the decision was a surprise (to at least some members of the family).

While I don't think the Queen's family members ought to have veto power over her decisions regarding titles and membership of the Royal House, they should preferably have been consulted, and at minimum given plenty of advance notice, for a major decision which directly affects their lives. If they truly were left to learn about it from the press release, that would be thoughtless at best and deeply disrespectful and hurtful at worst.


Regarding Countess Alexandra's comment that her children and stepchildren are being stripped of their identity: As somebody who has argued against stripping British Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of their princess titles when they are in their thirties, I do agree that there is some harm in imposing what is for all practical purposes a name change on an adult.

However, there are countervailing forces in the case of Nikolai and his siblings (which are not applicable to the British princesses):

They have grown up with the knowledge that royal status is not guaranteed for life. Their grandmother's paternal cousins, all three of whom were still alive ten years ago, had been forced to choose between marrying the partners they loved and keeping their royal titles, house membership and privileges, which meant that two of them were Counts of Rosenborg by the time Nikolai was born.

If the princes had kept their titles after marriage, there would also have been an expectation from at least some members of the public that these titles would be passed on to their wives and descendants.

Nikolai, at least (I have not been following Felix's career), has extensively used his princely title for earning money. (It would be interesting to know if Nikolai and Felix, and Marie on behalf of her minor children, were asked to voluntarily renounce the commercial usage of their royal titles. If any of them were unwilling to do so, that could have played a part in the decision to strip the titles instead of simply issuing a policy against using them commercially, as in Norway or Sweden.)

Athena will be Countess of Monpezat, but unlike her brothers she cannot pass that title on to her children.

And unlike her brothers, she will be demoted to a plain Mrs. if she marries a commoner. I hope that will be changed.

 

[W.Y.CII]

Question: is this "standardized" in future? Like will the children of Vincent also not have Prince/ss of Denmark title but only Count/ess of Monpezat (I assume Isabella and Josephine can't pass the title to their children)? Or is it just a one-off change from Joachim's kids?

 

[Muhler]

Indeed. QMII has just prevented four possible Märtha-Louise scenarios.

And Alexandra has been very active in supporting Nikolai's modelling career, which I very much doubt would be as successful, let alone well paid, had he not had the title of Prince. - There are many competitors in the modelling business out there.

I can envision that in some cases the DRF have discussions that are top secret. I.e. only the very top members of the DRF are involved. - Everybody else are not informed (a "need not know") or deliberately kept in the dark, for fear of a leak. Accidental or otherwise.
Alexandra is not even a member of the DRF, so if Joachim has been told to not breathe a word about this, it's possible he would not have informed Alexandra. - Sorry, Alex. Orders.

And before you ask: Yes, I think Mary would have been informed. If for no other reason that she occasionally acts as Rigsforstander.

 

[Somebody]

Question: is this "standardized" in future? Like will the children of Vincent also not have Prince/ss of Denmark title but only Count/ess of Monpezat (I assume Isabella and Josephine can't pass the title to their children)? Or is it just a one-off change from Joachim's kids?

It has been announced as applying specifically to Joachim's children/descendants (they talk about 'the grandchildren' so it seems they are using the various terms interchangeably) but I expect this will be the way forward. Only the children of the heirs will be prince(sse)s and not those of their siblings. As I wrote previously, it will be interesting to see what happens to Isabella's and Josephine's children. Vincent's children will be count/countess of Monpezat - as will the children of Nikolai, Felix and Henrik; as that title is a nobility title, so will follow the normal rules for the nobility.

 

[Blog Real]

Question: is this "standardized" in future? Like will the children of Vincent also not have Prince/ss of Denmark title but only Count/ess of Monpezat (I assume Isabella and Josephine can't pass the title to their children)? Or is it just a one-off change from Joachim's kids?

This will be the default in the future as well. I think there is no doubt about that.

 

[Muhler]

Question: is this "standardized" in future? Like will the children of Vincent also not have Prince/ss of Denmark title but only Count/ess of Monpezat (I assume Isabella and Josephine can't pass the title to their children)? Or is it just a one-off change from Joachim's kids?

It's up to the monarch.

The monarch can choose to strip say Vincent and Isabella of their royal titles, but allow Josephine to keep hers.

It depends on the circumstances.

But as long as Christian or Isabella does not have children, Vincent and Josephine will keep their royal titles. - Just in case.
But the second there is an heir and spare in fully working order, we are likely to see the DRF being reduced in numbers again.

There is after all a reason why Nikolai and Felix were titled Princes to Denmark from birth - it was their right so to speak, and it would keep things simpler, in case Frederik never had children.

It has been suggested by one commentator that Joachim was sacked and shipped off to France, once it was certain he was no longer needed as a spare and that this only confirms it.
- I don't agree with that version - yet.
Anyway, we discussed that at length in the Joachim thread.

But I think we are going to see Isabella (and her children) going through the same moves as Joachim. She will be a spare, supporting her brother, until the succession by Christian is secure.
- I hope that M&F will handle that in a less clumsy way by then. At least in regards to the public.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I overlooked this previously, but it seems the four grandchildren will also lose their formal membership of the Royal House at the same time as their royal titles on January 1.

"With her decision, Her Majesty The Queen wishes to create the framework for the four grandchildren to be able to shape their own lives to a much greater extent without being limited by the special considerations and duties that a formal affiliation with the Royal House of Denmark as an institution involves."​

I assume they will remain members of the Royal Family, the same as Princess Benedikte's children.

So the only remaining inconsistency with their soon to be status as private citizens is that they will remain in line to the throne, but that is not something the queen can unilaterally alter at the moment, as succession to the throne is governed by the constitutional Act of Succession.

To resolve the inconsistency, I hope the ex-princes(s) will not seek or receive the monarch's formal permission to marry. Marriage without permission will automatically remove them from the line of succession to the throne, according to the terms of the Act of Succession.

Question: is this "standardized" in future? Like will the children of Vincent also not have Prince/ss of Denmark title but only Count/ess of Monpezat (I assume Isabella and Josephine can't pass the title to their children)? Or is it just a one-off change from Joachim's kids?

It has been announced as applying specifically to Joachim's children/descendants (they talk about 'the grandchildren' so it seems they are using the various terms interchangeably) but I expect this will be the way forward. Only the children of the heirs will be prince(sse)s and not those of their siblings. As I wrote previously, it will be interesting to see what happens to Isabella's and Josephine's children. Vincent's children will be count/countess of Monpezat - as will the children of Nikolai, Felix and Henrik; as that title is a nobility title, so will follow the normal rules for the nobility.

True, although the statement in the press release about this decision being an extension of the 2016 announcement that only Prince Christian would receive an annuity from the state suggests that the same would apply in the next generation if Prince Christian's heir is the only member of their generation to receive state funding.

 

[Saragli]

Well this is some surprising news. I'm sure HM has been watching developments in other royal houses very closely and wanted to definitively deal with it before the next heir came unto the throne. I always thought having Joachim's kids be HH and Prince/ss was a very generous compromise. It'll definitely be an identity shake up for the two older princes, and I sympathies with them in the same way I will deeply sympathize with the York girls if their titles are removed, but all said parties have been working hard on making successful lives for themselves and will cope.

I'm somewhat surprised HM didn't go further and make Christians siblings just HH. Give's them enough status to be supportive of the royal family but also a little more leeway. More in-line with the Norwegian system.

 

[Somebody]

I know you've suggested it before but to me it would be really weird to treat Josephine and Vincent different than Isabella in terms of titles - all of them are children of the future monarch so imho should remain prince(ss) of Denmark. Do you know any other examples of royal houses where they distinguished between them - purely based on who was the spare and who were one step further down the line (if some remain in the line of succession and others don't that's a different story - that for example happened in the Netherlands - although they all remained prince(ss) - and of course many times in the past in the Scandinavian houses when they didn't get approval for marriage).

 

[Sionevar]

I know you've suggested it before but to me it would be really weird to treat Josephine and Vincent different than Isabella in terms of titles - all of them are children of the future monarch so imho should remain prince(ss) of Denmark. Do you know any other examples of royal houses where they distinguished between them - purely based on who was the spare and who were one step further down the line (if some remain in the line of succession and others don't that's a different story - that for example happened in the Netherlands - although they all remained prince(ss) - and of course many times in the past in the Scandinavian houses when they didn't get approval for marriage).

Norway comes to mind, but it's only a difference in style, not title. Ingrid Alexandra is HRH, while her younger brother Sverre Magnus is only HH. And Sverre Magnus is a member of the Royal Family, but not a member of the Royal House, while Ingrid Alexandra is a member of both.

 

[Somebody]

Norway comes to mind, but it's only a difference in style, not title. Ingrid Alexandra is HRH, while her younger brother Sverre Magnus is only HH. And Sverre Magnus is a member of the Royal Family, but not a member of the Royal House, while Ingrid Alexandra is a member of both.

That's a difference between the heir and the spare. I was asking for differences between the non-heir siblings, more specifically between the spare and his/her younger siblings - based on Muhler's suggestion to differentiate between Isabella (spare) on the one hand and Vincent and Josephine (non-immediate spares) on the other.

 

[Toledo]

The timing is really odd. It would have made more sense to do it when they first added the Monpezat-titles, or when the kids applied for permission to marry. Not just randomly in a jubilee year.

But it may well be that Margrethe don’t want Frederik to deal with potential backlash over decisions when he takes over.

Makes me wonder if the Queen is aware of her cousin's Charles III PR situation made up by the tabloid press in the USA and, as we say here, preempt the strike * and have the new nucleus of the Royal House, Frederick and Mary + children, to be the focus without attention diluted away to other cousins holding same princely titles.

It's a wise decision, strong and a bit difficult. Just think if you were the head of the royal family and your duty was to prepare your Heir's line in advance, despite of loving all your children and grandchildren equally. The Queen's love for her family doesn't need to have titles, but she's a Queen first and foremost and Frederick and Mary's future needs to be secured now and not after her passing or maybe an Emeritus self-retirement.

The late Queen Elizabeth II addressed something similar in the situation involving Camilla by putting her Royal foot down on the press and stating she will be addressed with respect as Queen Consort Camilla, not Princess Camilla wife of King Charles III. From what I've read, please correct me if I'm wrong, the title of Prince as the husband of a reigning Queen is based on 'King' considered above the rank of 'Queen' in the old European hierarchy. So, a reigning Queen can't have a consort husband with rank above her station. I think in Portugal this doesn't apply and the husband goes from Prince (consort) to King (still consort) either with the birth of the first heir, or male heir?

So, it's a good decision for the Queen of Denmark to save her Heir some headaches in advance and preempt the strike against the media now and be done with it in 2023.

*Definition paraphrased - A preemptive strike is an action taken to forestall an imminent f threat. This is different from a preventive action to counter a more distant threat. In this respect, a preemptive strike deals with a current threat, while preventive action deals with a potential or future threat.
Source
https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/applied-and-social-sciences-magazines/preemptive-strike

 

[Sionevar]

That's a difference between the heir and the spare. I was asking for differences between the non-heir siblings, more specifically between the spare and his/her younger siblings - based on Muhler's suggestion to differentiate between Isabella (spare) on the one hand and Vincent and Josephine (non-immediate spares) on the other.

Sorry. My bad.

 

[Prinsara]

I don't agree that Nikolai's career necessarily played a factor in this. He gave every appearance of working with QMII's full permission and being very conscious of his status and respectful of the monarchy. He is not Märtha Louise.

If QMII had had some issue with it, she would have said no, and Nikolai would have worked under a mononym or a professional name. Simple.

I think his career is an adjacent factor, at best.

 

[xenobia]

The changes in titles are a bit different than those that were made here in Sweden 2019.

The children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are still (as an example) Prince Alexander, Duke of Södermanland. But he is not a HRH, and he's not a member of the Royal House, just the Royal Family. And the grandchildren not in direct line will not be supported by any royal apanage.

Another difference is that when the changes in Sweden were announced by the court, both Madeleine and Carl Philip were quick to post their statements in social media, saying that they supported the decision. They all seemed to agree that there had been a process, they had been involved, and this is what came out of it. I'm not sure if they fully agreed, but they supported it. And this part of the change is what seems to be the biggest problem in Denmark. Not the titles, but the lack of communication and information to those involved.

As an example, here's the post from the Prince couple:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3UVzMJnUTZ/

"It was announced today that the King has decided that our children no longer will be Royal Highnesses. We see this as a positive thing, as it will give Alexander and Gabriel the opportunity to chose their paths in life more freely later on in life. .
⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
They will keep their titles as princes and their duchies, Södermanland and Dalarna, which we appreciate and are very proud of. Our family has strong connections to both duchies, and we will maintain our committments there.
⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
We will continue to have focus on our own charities and causes. We will also continue to support the King and Crown Princess - our future head of state - and take part in the commitments of the Royal House in the way that the head of state asks us to.

 

[victor1319]

Indeed. QMII has just prevented four possible Märtha-Louise scenarios.

Well, I still don't get it!

All I thought was, that you are either the son of the Queen and then a Prince or not... - for example if you are disinherited. But not-anymore-Prince Joachim is still officially in the line as a heir, so, as a Prince...?

With the models-but-not-anymore-Princes... Well, who am I to judge?

But the Queen gave birth to Joachim! He is her son!

And I am simple folk: So, what is with the monies? Joachim, his wifes and children were eligible to some money from the state coffers, right? I mean Joachim has been a Prince after all... And now?

 

[Izzie]

I have read a number of comments in various papers.

While the commentators understand why the titles are taken from Joachim's children there is considerable bewilderment in regards to the the reaction from Alexandra - who claims to speak on behalf of herself and Joachim.

The court has said that Joachim has been involved all the way. - Which can mean anything from actually being consulted to simply being informed about the decision.
So unless Joachim comes out and says clearly that he has indeed been fully informed and consulted, the rumors that there is a strain between Joachim and Frederik, and that J&M were ordered to France (which they have more or less suggested in at east a couple of articles) will gain credit.

Joachim is likely to come out and support the decision of QMII - anything less would be sensational!
However, I will be very much looking forward to the upcoming interviews with J&M and also Alexandra. (I think Alexandra is genuinely miffed but I also think she has been kept out. She is not a senior member of the DRF, so she will basically have to eat what QMII dish out.)

I think this has been handled in a very peculiar way!

Okay, stripping Joachim's children of their titles. Fair enough, no surprise there.
But why not make sure it is fully coordinated? I.e. the court issue a statement, with the fully informed parents of the children, also issuing their statements at the same time. Some blah-blah about understanding and accepting the decision.

As it is now, I at least, have the distinct impression that certainly Alexandra, Nikolai and Felix - perhaps Marie as well, have not been informed prior to this decision being announced.
Which strikes me as a major communications blunder. Both in regards to the public but also internally within the family.

Anyway, the DRF will get away with it.

M&F are the superstars of the DRF, they have taken over in so many ways, that they are the regent couple in pretty much anything but name now. - And more importantly are seen and accepted as being the de facto regent couple.
On top of that there are plenty of other things to occupy people's minds these days, that any public debate about this will be short.

Alexandra is a faded celebrity by now. She does however take a very keen interest in her boys, so I can well imagine that she feels insulted.
J&M are in exile in France - and who knows whether they will return or whatever they are going to do? Perhaps opt out of the DRF as active members?
Nikolai. I don't know if he is miffed. Perhaps. From a cynical commercial point of view he may become less interesting as a model, when he is "just" a count.
From what little I know of Felix, I don't think he minds.
Henrik and Athena? They are children and probably just wish to be like the other children they associate, so losing their royal titles, probably will make little to no impact on them.
They were destined to be in the fringes of the DRF anyway.

- I do however wonder, as one member suggested here, that QMII is making a number of unpleasant decisions and reforms within the DRF, preventing Frederik form having to make them. And making a decision like this on her own and suddenly, may repeat may, help Frederik in mending a very plausible rift in the relationship between him and Joachim.
I'm actually very surprised I have not seen the word abdication in any of the comments yet. - Because the timing is at the same time both odd, and very logical, depending on that exact word: Abdication.

ADDED:
Athena will be Countess of Monpezat, but unlike her brothers she cannot pass that title on to her children.

I am suffice to say surprised at this. Let's just hope some tabloids like BT don't find a way to spin it and make it all M&F's fault.

Have to say, stripping your grandchildren of their titles like that is harsh....a bit cringey tbh.

And Muhler- maybe you haven't heard the word "abdicate" because the mere utterance sends some into a tizzy of "for life" and pearl clutching and meltdowns and word twisting ensues! Maybe (Fingers crossed) more announcements will follow from the DRF about significant changes of the organizational structure over there. Long overdue IMO.

 

[Toledo]

Just for comparison's sake on how the trend to reduce the title of Prince/Princess in the UK, and now in Denmark, to the HRM/working royals mostly prevents it from being overused. I believe in economy it's called inflation. If inflation in Economy refers to increases in the price level of goods and reduces the value of money, then applied to titles would be simple: too many Princes and Princesses in a reigning house, Denmark or the UK, gives the impression their Crown Princes and family had to be at the same level as the cousins. They don't and also, they have to courtesy to them and their wives upon meeting.

And I'm sure Queen Margrethe's intention is to economize it to be focused on her Heir's next generation.

Article from 2018 re the thousands of princely title holders in just one country.

The founder of modern Saudi Arabia went on to have 45 sons and numerous daughters. (He allegedly had 98 children in total). He had about 22 wives, but never more than four at a time, according to the New York Post. Today, he has thousands of grandchildren. Princess Basma Bint Saud Bin Abdul Aziz, one of Ibn Saud's granddaughters, once said they had "15,000 royals." Author of Succession in Saudi Arabia Joseph Kechichian pegs the number of princes to be around 12,000 to 15,000, while a Saudi spokesperson refuted that by saying there are no more than 5,000 in the House of Saud, reports The New York Times. It all depends on whether one would count the distant relatives.

Source: https://www.esquiremag.ph/the-good-life/pursuits/saudi-arabia-princes-monarchy-a00184-20180725-lfrm

 

[kalnel]

I wonder if any of this relates to the flap about the interviews Joachim and Marie gave to Point de Vue in May 2021. If Joachim has never found his place, as he suggested, he wouldn't want his children to be burdened by the same problem.

Maybe the Queen gave him a year to think it over, then decided in May 2022 what the answer would be. They probably delayed announcing it until after the Jubilee celebrations.

Since the spring of 2021, Felix dropped out of military training (like his brother before him), and he and Nikolai both pursued modeling and business school. All perfectly respectable, but not a path of public service for princes.

I had to laugh thinking that this means that apart from Frederik's children (and Frederik, Joachim, Benedikte, etc.), the only people carrying princely titles associated with Denmark are the Greek royals. I can't imagine Queen Margrethe looks at the jet-set, celebutante coverage of Pavlos' children and thinks, "Yeah, I want Denmark associated with that."

I wonder if she contemplated pulling the Greek titles as well. Maybe those are just so remote that it's not worth upsetting Queen Anne-Marie and King Constantine.

 

[maria-olivia]

Have to say, stripping your grandchildren of their titles like that is harsh....a bit cringey tbh.

I stand with you .

 

[Saragli]

You bring up a good point and I'm surprised an announcement hasn't been made regarding the Greek titles. I also can't help but think that if Nikolai and Felix were never Princes to start with they might have never been pressured into the military.

 

[Somebody]

Well, I still don't get it!

All I thought was, that you are either the son of the Queen and then a Prince or not... - for example if you are disinherited. But not-anymore-Prince Joachim is still officially in the line as a heir, so, as a Prince...?

With the models-but-not-anymore-Princes... Well, who am I to judge?

But the Queen gave birth to Joachim! He is her son!

And I am simple folk: So, what is with the monies? Joachim, his wifes and children were eligible to some money from the state coffers, right? I mean Joachim has been a Prince after all... And now?

Joachim will still be a royal highness and a prince of Denmark in 2023 (no changes for Marie either). It is only his children that will no longer be highnesses (they never were royal highnesses) and princes of Denmark but will starting on January 1st of 2023 use their nobility title given in april 2008 to Henrik's descendants, i.e., count(ess) of Monpezat.

And titles and money are not directly related - and even less so in this case. Joachim's children never received money from the state (except N & F via their mother who did receive quite a lot of money for their upbringing). And Joachim's dotation is not related in any way to his children being highnesses or not.

 

[kalnel]

You bring up a good point and I'm surprised an announcement hasn't been made regarding the Greek titles. I also can't help but think that if Nikolai and Felix were never Princes to start with they might have never been pressured into the military.

Yes, it leaves the Greek title situation...messy.

You're right about Nikolai and Felix with the military. Leaving as they did didn't reflect well on anyone, although it was understandable.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Good god, that was an extremely inelegant way to go about this.

I've been in favour of the DRF resolving its numerous question on the subject of titles for a long time but this neither resolves all of the questions (as the Monpezat title is only hereditary in the male line, making Athena the loser in these changes) nor do I think it's a particularly logical solution. And to top it off, I think it's harsh to strip them of their titles out of the blue.

They could have dealt with it by saying that only (children and) grandchildren of the monarch will be able to hold the titles of Prince or Princess. Meaning that Nikolai, Felix, Henrik and Athena would've retained their princely titles but future spouses and children would've been Counts and Countesses of Monpezat. But I suppose Frederik having 4 kids is the reason they didn't do that (if all 4 have 4 kids each, suddenly we'd end up with a lot of princes and princesses ).

But then, I don't understand why they didn't just wait to set a precedence once the first of them marries. It seems unnecessarily harsh to strip them so suddenly without any obvious reason and I have to say I sympathise with Alexandra, Joachim, Marie and the kids on this (I think Alexandra's statement makes it pretty clear that she speaks for them all).

Okay, stripping Joachim's children of their titles. Fair enough, no surprise there.
But why not make sure it is fully coordinated? I.e. the court issue a statement, with the fully informed parents of the children, also issuing their statements at the same time. Some blah-blah about understanding and accepting the decision.

As it is now, I at least, have the distinct impression that certainly Alexandra, Nikolai and Felix - perhaps Marie as well, have not been informed prior to this decision being announced.
Which strikes me as a major communications blunder. Both in regards to the public but also internally within the family.

Why not fully coordinated? Well, I can think of a reason. While they have no choice but to accept it, I don't think they do understand the reason. And I can't really blame them because I have a hard time understanding the way it was done too. And Joachim and Marie allowing Alexandra to issue a statement as scathing as that without immediately refuting it is a crystal clear indicator of their feelings on the matter.

As for your latter suggestion, that seems totally implausible to me. You're suggesting that Joachim – fully aware of these plans – didn't care to inform either Alexandra, Marie or his older sons of it? That seems very uncaring and Joachim doesn't strike me as an uncaring man.

I do however wonder, as one member suggested here, that QMII is making a number of unpleasant decisions and reforms within the DRF, preventing Frederik form having to make them. And making a decision like this on her own and suddenly, may repeat may, help Frederik in mending a very plausible rift in the relationship between him and Joachim.
I'm actually very surprised I have not seen the word abdication in any of the comments yet. - Because the timing is at the same time both odd, and very logical, depending on that exact word: Abdication.

Or illness.

In terms of the subject of abdication, I'm still gonna stick to QMII's own words and trust she'll "stay on her branch till she falls off" but a reason that would make the timing of the changes somewhat logical (with emphasis on somewhat) to me is if QMII, god forbid it, is ill and wants it resolved so Frederik doesn't have to deal with it.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Norway comes to mind, but it's only a difference in style, not title. Ingrid Alexandra is HRH, while her younger brother Sverre Magnus is only HH. And Sverre Magnus is a member of the Royal Family, but not a member of the Royal House, while Ingrid Alexandra is a member of both.

Sverre Magnus is not an HH when he is in Norway - the style is only for foreign use. See how only HRH is used (for those who have it) in the Norwegian-language version of the official website of the Royal House.

https://www.kongehuset.no/seksjon.html?tid=27163&sek=26940

I don't agree that Nikolai's career necessarily played a factor in this. He gave every appearance of working with QMII's full permission and being very conscious of his status and respectful of the monarchy. He is not Märtha Louise.

If QMII had had some issue with it, she would have said no, and Nikolai would have worked under a mononym or a professional name. Simple.

I think his career is an adjacent factor, at best.

But I can't think what else, other than careers (not necessarily Nikolai's specifically), could be meant by the statement "In May 2016, it was also announced that His Royal Highness Prince Christian, as the only one of The Queen’s grandchildren, is expected to receive an annuity from the state as an adult. As a natural extension of this, Her Majesty has decided [...]".

Or are you thinking that the press release is being less than candid about the real factor(s) driving the change?

Makes me wonder if the Queen is aware of her cousin's Charles III PR situation made up by the tabloid press in the USA and, as we say here, preempt the strike * and have the new nucleus of the Royal House, Frederick and Mary + children, to be the focus without attention diluted away to other cousins holding same princely titles.

If so, then the preemption attempt has clearly failed, given Countess Alexandra's statement and the resulting questions about who was or wasn't informed and when.

I'm somewhat surprised HM didn't go further and make Christians siblings just HH. Give's them enough status to be supportive of the royal family but also a little more leeway. More in-line with the Norwegian system.

I don't think there is a difference in status as perceived by the public in 2022 between HRH Princes and HH Princes.

The Norwegians who lost their HRH lost it as as a consequence of their removal from the Royal House. That was what gave Princess Märtha Louise leeway in her career, because it meant the end of her tax exemption and the expectation of her becoming a full-time working royal.

The late Queen Elizabeth II addressed something similar in the situation involving Camilla by putting her Royal foot down on the press and stating she will be addressed with respect as Queen Consort Camilla, not Princess Camilla wife of King Charles III. From what I've read, please correct me if I'm wrong, the title of Prince as the husband of a reigning Queen is based on 'King' considered above the rank of 'Queen' in the old European hierarchy. So, a reigning Queen can't have a consort husband with rank above her station. I think in Portugal this doesn't apply and the husband goes from Prince (consort) to King (still consort) either with the birth of the first heir, or male heir?

King is simply the masculine equivalent of Queen. In certain other European languages this is more evident: Rey and Reina (Spanish) or Koning and Koningin (Dutch). Prior to the 18th century, virtually all husbands of European queens regnant were styled as King, and they continued to be styled King in Spain and Portugal after that.

If you or anybody else is interested in discussing this further, I respectfully ask that we move it over to the thread Title and Role of a Consort, as it is not specific to the Danish royals.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Here is the Danish version of the announcement:

https://www.kongehuset.dk/nyheder/ændringer-i-titler-og-tiltaleformer-i-den-kongelige-familie





And unlike her brothers, she will be demoted to a plain Mrs. if she marries a commoner. I hope that will be changed.

I thought titled ladies keep their titles for life and actually have various options to be known after marriage. Imagine Athena marries a Mr Mærsk.

1. Remain known by the same name: Athena komtesse af Monpezat

2. Become known with a combination of both names: Fru Athena Mærsk født komtesse af Monpezat

3. Become known by her spouse's name only: Fru Athena Mærsk

 

[Toledo]

You bring up a good point and I'm surprised an announcement hasn't been made regarding the Greek titles. I also can't help but think that if Nikolai and Felix were never Princes to start with they might have never been pressured into the military.

That would be messy because the Greek side of the family had this title since Denmark authorized one of their princes to accept the Greek Crown in the 18th Century. There's a lot of history involved, and the Greek cousin's do not affect the Danes' current style, since is just part of their surname to be of Greece and Denmark.

This made me think of the Spanish Borbon's Cadet Branches in Italy using a location as part of the surname as Bourbon-Two Sicilies, Bourbon-Parma (now Grand Ducal in Luxembourg), etc.