General Questions and Information about the Danish Royal Family

[Izzie]

so Daisy picks who it is if she and Frederik are not available? Huh...interesting.

 

[Izzie]

I actually just had a general question about royal member rank.

In the BRF there is the complicated policy about rank and who curtseys to who and when. Like if Kate is with William then she takes on his rank and blood princesses like Beatrice and Eugenie curtsey to her. But if Kate is alone then she has to curtsey to blood princesses. So she gets demoted in rank if that makes sense. Kate is being called Princess Catherine which is technically incorrect. She is Catherine, Princess of Wales. If someone wants to put princess in front of her name it is Princess William of Wales.

Is there something this convoluted with the DRF? Like does Mary's rank depend on whether she's with Frederik or not...is she a princess in her own right even though she is a married-in commoner. Like she is not Mary, Crown Princess of Denmark or Princess Frederik of Denmark.

Sorry if that is confusing. I am just curious. I saw some posts about how Mary's title is akin to Kate's title and how it works the same and I did not think that was right.

Muhler - Maybe you can address my confusing question! Tusind Tak!

 

[Muhler]

I can. ?

The DRF system is radically different from the BRF system.

It's really very simple: Mary (and our Marie for that matter and beforehand PH as well) holds the exact same rank in regards to the protocol as the royal she is married to - always. I.e. the Crown Prince.
Except in some Constitutional matters.

The only ones in the entire country Mary does not outrank at any time, are QMII and Frederik. - And the Rigsforstander if Mary hasn't been appointed.
She even outranks the Prime Minister and the Chairman of the Parliament (who outranks the PM.)
Mary is always the Crown Princess and it doesn't matter if she is with Frederik, if she is alone or if she is together with QMII and Frederik is not present.

So when Mary is going solo, she is not princess Frederik, she is still the Crown Princess. And as such she outranks everybody else present. And also because being the highest ranking DRF member present, she is the direct representative for the Monarch.

Examples: When M&F are together, Frederik outranks Mary slightly, because he is the Heir. But if Joachim and Christian are also present Mary outranks them as well according to the protocol. Mary also outranks Benedikte.
Now, the DRF are not as formal in regards to interactions between family members. A kiss on the cheek usually suffice. Except when the show is on. Then Mary (and Marie) curtsy to QMII. But Benedikte does not. Because it would be seen as somewhat odd by the Danes if Benedikte should curtsy to her sister.
And AFAIK the DRF do not bow or curtsy in private. There a kiss on the cheek will do. They are after all family.

Another example: Mary is solo, no Frederik. But Joachim and Benedikte are present. Mary still outranks both of them. And if the protocol was strictly observed, Joachim should bow and Benedikte curtsy to Mary.
Also, in this situation Mary walks in front.

And when the time comes and Christian becomes crown prince, Mary will still outrank him - except when he is Regent. Because while Mary will always outrank her son, (until he becomes king, if Mary outlives Frederik) in regards to the protocol, it's another matter when it's in regards to the Constitution. You may recall when PH had his fit and ran off to France, because he was annoyed with being eclipsed by his son.
QMII was off duty, so Frederik stepped in in her stead at the New Year Court for the diplomatic corps. That's because the Heir automatically steps in when the Monarch is away or incapacitated. That is crystal clear in the Constitution.
As such it was Frederik who received the well wishes from the doyen of the diplomatic corps, and in return wished the diplomats a happy New Year. Not PH. Because Frederik acted on behalf of the Monarch in a state affair - dealing with foreign diplomats.

And that takes me to back to Mary. Let us say that both QMII and Frederik are off duty at the next New Year court for the diplomatic corps and she is taking over. Then she will be both the host on behalf of the family, because she is the Crown Princess, but as as the highest ranking DRF member present she will also speak on behalf of QMII and Denmark. I.e. she acts in a Constitutional capacity.
She doesn't need to be appointed Rigsforstander to do that, especially as Christian will still not be crown prince.

When Mary acts as Rigsforstander, no one in the country outranks her. Not according to the protocol and not according to the Constitution. She is the acting head of state.

- Hmm, I may have made this rather simple explanation more complicated than it really is. Oh well.

ADDED: At present Marie outranks everybody else in the entire country, except QMII, M&F and Joachim. And that's because she holds the same rank as Joachim in regards to the protocol.
That also includes Benedikte, except when Benedikte acts as Rigsforstander.

 

[Izzie]

Muhler...thank you so much for this amazing and detailed breakdown of how it all works!

One more question, how does it work military wise given Mary holds a military rank. She still outranks let's say Joachim if they are at the same military event?

So when she handled the Flag Day events a few years ago she was the highest ranking person there?

Thanks again for taking the time to explain all of this!!

 

[LauraS3514]

I actually just had a general question about royal member rank.

In the BRF there is the complicated policy about rank and who curtseys to who and when. Like if Kate is with William then she takes on his rank and blood princesses like Beatrice and Eugenie curtsey to her. But if Kate is alone then she has to curtsey to blood princesses. So she gets demoted in rank if that makes sense. Kate is being called Princess Catherine which is technically incorrect. She is Catherine, Princess of Wales. If someone wants to put princess in front of her name it is Princess William of Wales.

Although this is the wrong thread, a correction is needed: the only people the BRF members curtsey/bow to are The King and Queen. The precedence you were referring to is only who goes into a room first - Royal Highnesses do not curtsey to each other. Catherine is "HRH The Princess of Wales" - no first name is used. She would be "Catherine, Princess of Wales" only if she and William divorce.

 

[Izzie]

The only thing I accidentally misstated was the word curtsey. The explanation given by Muhler showing that Mary's rank in precedence is not dependent on if she enters a room with Frederik or not. And she is Crown Princess Mary.....not Crown Princess Frederik. Same goes for Princess Marie. She's not Princess Joachim.
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f162/bowing-and-curtseying-4676-129.html#post1976370.

 

[Prinsara]

She's actually just The Crown Princess, a title she gained by marriage. Her name is technically completely irrelevant.

 

[Izzie]

Well since her name is Mary that's why I included it with title...and that's how she's addressed. Of course I perfectly am aware that she acquired the title of Crown Princess upon her marriage. I was never implying otherwise.

 

[Muhler]

Muhler...thank you so much for this amazing and detailed breakdown of how it all works!

One more question, how does it work military wise given Mary holds a military rank. She still outranks let's say Joachim if they are at the same military event?

So when she handled the Flag Day events a few years ago she was the highest ranking person there?

Thanks again for taking the time to explain all of this!!

You are welcome.

That depends on whether Mary and Joachim (or only one them) are there as royals or as officers.

If they happen to meet in connection with an exercise and are both in uniform, Mary as a captain will salute Joachim, who is a brigadier.
In this case Joachim outranks Mary. Or more correctly: Joachim's military rank, outranks Mary's military rank. She is still the Crown Princess. (*)
But if they are both there representing the DRF, then Mary outranks Joachim. Because Mary is the Crown Princess and the direct representative for QMII, who is also the Commander-in-Chief. And as Mary usually does not wear a uniform unless it's a specific Home Guard event, there ought to be no confusion.

Anyone in need of an aspirin? ?
Good because now it gets a bit more confusing.
This is a very hypothetical example:
Let's say Mary, the captain, is out crawling through mud and Joachim the Prince is dropping by. (DRF members sometimes visits major exercises to show the flag.) Then Joachim outranks Mary, because he is the direct representative for QMII.
I can't see that happen though, because why send Joachim to show the flag, when Mary is there?
She can basically at any time wipe the mud of her face and declare that she is now there as the Crown Princess and everybody kowtows to her.

So to sum up: Joachim only outranks Mary if he is Rigsforstander or they are both in uniform and there as officers on duty.

- Joachim could be heading a group of fourteen generals, marching them in circles around Fredensborg - happens all the time, you know. ?
If Mary approach them, wearing cut off jeans, sandals, a tank top smeared with paint and dust in her hair because she is painting the attic, all these generals and Joachim, who otherwise believe the sun only rise in the morning because they have ordered it, will show Mary the proper respect befitting the Crown Princess. Straighten up and saluting her. - And then act like normal human beings. No snapping their heels together every five seconds after that. After all this isn't a scene from Sissi, Die Kaiserin.
Generals can't figure out how to stand to attention anyway. They've forgotten how to.

(*) Just as when Frederik was serving in the North Atlantic. Even though he was Crown Prince, he was not in command of the ship, but a serving officer, answerable to his senior officer, the captain, the Navy Operational Command, The admiral/commodore in charge of the Danish ships in the North Atlantic, the navy admiral, the defense chief, the Minister of Defense, The Prime Minister and finally QMII.

 

[Queen Claude]

She's actually just The Crown Princess, a title she gained by marriage. Her name is technically completely irrelevant.

I disagree with this personally. I think that female married-ins should retain their given names which is the case in Denmark (and Sweden) but not the case in the UK.

On the website kongehuset.dk, on Marie's profile page she is referred to as:

• HRH Princess Marie
• Marie Agathe Odile, Her Royal Highness Princess of Denmark, Countess of Monpezat
• Princess Marie

Mary's page has:

• HRH The Crown Princess
• Mary Elizabeth, Her Royal Highness Crown Princess of Denmark, Countess of Monpezat
• Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Mary Elizabeth of Denmark

She is not referred to as Crown Princess Mary on her profile page, but I infer that it is acceptable to truncate Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Mary Elizabeth of Denmark to HRH Crown Princess Mary or Crown Princess Mary.

P.S.
Hopefully Charles or William will change the rule and allow married-ins, if indeed they are even given royal titles, to be Prince/ss X, Duchess X, Princess X, Duchess of Y. Although it should be noted that the UK was ahead of the curve when it came to female monarchs and marriage to commoners.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

She's actually just The Crown Princess, a title she gained by marriage. Her name is technically completely irrelevant.

Crown Princess Mary and The Crown Princess are equally correct.

Most European royal houses do not use the strict British and French rule that the given name is always omitted from the titles of senior royals.

See for instance the website of the Danish Royal House:

On 14 May 2004, on the occasion of the marriage to His Royal Highness Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark, she became Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Mary Elizabeth of Denmark. The marriage ceremony took place in Copenhagen Cathedral, and the wedding festivities were held at Fredensborg Palace.

https://www.kongehuset.dk/en/the-royal-family/hrh-the-crown-princess/#​

...is she a princess in her own right even though she is a married-in commoner. Like she is not Mary, Crown Princess of Denmark or Princess Frederik of Denmark.

The term "princess in her own right" seems to refer to the British system of titulature and has no meaning in Denmark. Whether an individual belongs to the royal family by birth or by marriage, his or her title is bestowed or removed at the pleasure of the monarch.

It has always been the rule in official settings that wives use their own forenames, not those of their husbands, so there is no Crown Princess Frederik.

 

[Blog Real]

DR has already made the program "The Year of the Royal Family" available:

https://www.dr.dk/drtv/se/aaret-i-kongehuset_-paa-taersklen-til-noget-nyt_421722

 

[Blog Real]

I have a question to ask: when will Prince Christian do his first official solo act?

 

[Sister Morphine]

I have a question to ask: when will Prince Christian do his first official solo act?

Not until he's done with school, I'd imagine. While he's 18 and could assume the throne tomorrow should something truly terrible happen, he's still a student. I'd imagine FX and QMary are prioritizing their educations over being working royals, at least for now.

 

[ricarda]

I have a question to ask: when will Prince Christian do his first official solo act?

Well, what counts as official solo act for you?
Christian was Regent for 3 days in January/February. And he will run solo in the city Bronderslev during the Royal Run in May. As for taking over patronages I guess they will wait until he has finished school.

 

[Prinsara]

I would wonder about his first engagement or speech (the birthday remarks don't count for this), as most of his contemporaries have already done at least one. Would it be helpful to know when his father and grandmother did theirs?

 

[polyesco]

Why wouldn't his birthday speech count? It wasn't just simple remarks but a speech.
Seeing that he has just been Crown Prince for less then 3 months, I think he is on the right track. He has attended State Councils, acted as regent and signed a law.

 

[Prinsara]

Why wouldn't his birthday speech count? It wasn't just simple remarks but a speech.
Seeing that he has just been Crown Prince for less then 3 months, I think he is on the right track. He has attended State Councils, acted as regent and signed a law.

Because it was for a largely personal event, for him. Something that he has to go out and do that has nothing to do with him would both count as an actual engagement and a typical set of royal remarks.

State councils, regency, and signatures are all well and good, but they're just listening and paperwork, and they don't give the public a sense of who the CP is or what he can do, officially.

 

[Somebody]

Attending state councils, being regent and signing laws are the heart of his future role; everything else is 'extra'. So far he has shown he is able to handle such situations well whenever he is attending with one or more of his family members, so I am sure at some point an opportunity will present itself for him to do a solo engagement and I expect him to do well that time as well. Imho, he only became crown prince 2 months ago, so there is plenty of time to pick a good occasion for him to do so. For now, his focus is rightly on his education (which most likely will consist both of military and university education, so might take a while).

 

[Izzie]

He has barely been CP for just about 2 months. He is in his last year of high school preparing for graduation and that rightly is his focus...as it should be.
He has also shown before this that he can handle himself on his own such as during the Royal Run when he's been holding down the fort in Copenhagen while his parents run elsewhere. He's led his siblings, handled the press questions and done just fine. This year he is running in his own City...a solo engagement for him. His parents have done a wonderful job of balancing letting him be a kid/teenager with his public role.

 

[Prinsara]

Attending state councils, being regent and signing laws are the heart of his future role; everything else is 'extra'. So far he has shown he is able to handle such situations well whenever he is attending with one or more of his family members, so I am sure at some point an opportunity will present itself for him to do a solo engagement and I expect him to do well that time as well. Imho, he only became crown prince 2 months ago, so there is plenty of time to pick a good occasion for him to do so. For now, his focus is rightly on his education (which most likely will consist both of military and university education, so might take a while).

If all his father or grandmother did was attend councils, sign laws, and reign, I don't think the Danish monarchy would work very well. That's the brain of the job. The "heart" is connecting with people.

Christian is from all appearances not only extroverted and comfortable with people, he's now a state-funded adult. I'm confident he could make a couple appearances without it affecting his life or education too much. If he wants to focus on other things for now, he has the option of returning or delaying his salary, also like his contemporaries.

It's not wise to start on a bad foot, and do neither.

 

[polyesco]

He has been 18 and Crown Prince for a whole 2 months. Maybe let's wait a little.
It might not seem important to you but he has been regent and signed a law, solo. Those were his first call-ups and he did so.
So far his next solo "public" event will be the Royal Run. "the Crown Prince is now taking an even bigger part in the Royal Run when His Royal Highness is running in Brønderslev."

 

[Izzie]

He has been 18 and Crown Prince for a whole 2 months. Maybe let's wait a little.
It might not seem important to you but he has been regent and signed a law, solo. Those were his first call-ups and he did so.
So far his next solo "public" event will be the Royal Run. "the Crown Prince is now taking an even bigger part in the Royal Run when His Royal Highness is running in Brønderslev."

Why this sudden pearl clutching over what Christian is doing? He is 18 years old! Just became Crown Prince. Let's not judge his entire future as the heir by 8 weeks, while trying to finish school. How many solo engagements have his contemporaries actually done? And they've been heirs for much longer. I mean if we are trying to compare him to others. Why this sudden focus on his engagements, workload, etc.? Is there a certain timetable heirs are supposed to follow? I mean when he needed to step up as regent, he did so - like an heir should step up for the monarch when they are abroad or incapacitated in some way. Oh Christian has shown already how great he is at connecting with people, a trait that some heirs double his age sometimes don't possess. So, let's cut the kid some slack and see how he develops in his new role instead of tossing him to the proverbial wolves already and questioning his work ethic, integrity and character.

 

[Somebody]

If all his father or grandmother did was attend councils, sign laws, and reign, I don't think the Danish monarchy would work very well. That's the brain of the job. The "heart" is connecting with people.

Christian is from all appearances not only extroverted and comfortable with people, he's now a state-funded adult. I'm confident he could make a couple appearances without it affecting his life or education too much. If he wants to focus on other things for now, he has the option of returning or delaying his salary, also like his contemporaries.

It's not wise to start on a bad foot, and do neither.

I am not aware that he is starting on a bad foot...

A big difference between him and his contemporaries is that he is regent anytime his father is abroad, unlike for example Amalia and Elisabeth. So, while they still do a few engagements each year, they do not yet have an official role in 'running the country' (i.e. step in for their fathers) unlike Christian who does because of how the Danish monarchy works.

 

[kalnel]

Did they reinstitute Christian's salary on Margrethe's abdication?

 

[Somebody]

Did they reinstitute Christian's salary on Margrethe's abdication?

In June it was announced (in the run up to his 18th birthday) that upon him turning 21 or earlier if a change of thrones would take place before that, legislation would be sought to grant him an apanage. So, it seems, that some kind of regulation needs to be passed by parliament before he will start receiving it. It also referenced his focus on completing his high school. So, maybe they are waiting to introduce such a bill until after he graduates from high school?

Some relevante quotes:

»Kongehuset har i samråd med Statsministeriet besluttet, at Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Christian ikke tildeles årpenge, før han fylder 21 år i efteråret 2026, medmindre Hans Kongelige Højhed inden da måtte være blevet tronfølger.« Sådan lyder det i en pressemeddelelse fra Statsministeriet.

Kongehuset skriver på Instagram, at prins Christians hovedprioritet i det kommende år vil være færdiggørelsen af hans gymnasiale uddannelse, og at der derfor »først søges om opbakning i Folketinget til en lov om årpenge, når Prinsen fylder 21 år eller ved et eventuelt tronskifte, hvis det finder sted inden«.

Source: BT

Prins Christians apanage afgjort: Får den ikke, før han fylder 21

Prins Christian får ikke apanage, før han fylder 21.

www.bt.dk

Which according to Google Translate means:
"The Royal House, in consultation with the Prime Minister's Office, has decided that His Royal Highness Prince Christian will not be awarded an annuity until he turns 21 in autumn 2026, unless His Royal Highness has become heir to the throne by then." That's what it says in a press release from the Prime Minister's Office.

The Royal House writes on Instagram that Prince Christian's main priority in the coming year will be the completion of his high school education, and that therefore "support will first be sought in the Danish Parliament for a law on annuities when the Prince turns 21 or upon a possible succession of thrones, if it takes place before."

 

[kalnel]

That's exactly what I was thinking about. The wording seemed odd at the time, so now I wonder if they're going to seek the legislation.

 

[Muhler]

Nu står det klart: Kronprins Christian skal have apanage

Også det nye kongepars apanage og dronning Margrethes apanage skal behandles i Folketinget.

www.bt.dk

The Parliament is set to work on three bills in regards to the DRF. They are all about the apanage.
The first bill is about the apanage to granted the Regent Couple - My guess is that it is going to be more than during QMII, because FX&QM are expected to have more incoming and outgoing visits and are generally expected to represent DK more abroad.
The second bill is about the apanage granted to QMII. That will also determine the size of her court and how active a role she is expected (or wish) to have.
The third bill is about an apanage to Christian. It was previously informally agreed that Christian will get an apanage when he has finished his studies - or when he becomes Crown Prince. He is now the Crown Prince.

All political matters regarding the DRF go through the PM's office, Statsministeriet = The State Ministry or The Ministry of State. Traditionally all bills regarding the DRF are guaranteed to pass and become law. - Or they wouldn't become bills in the first place.
So the only question here is how much the apanage will be.

 

[Muhler]

Kongehuset ændrer praksis efter påskekoks: 'Det virker uprofessionelt'

'Det skal jo ikke være et gætværk, et puslespil eller en detektivopgave at finde ud af, hvem der er landets rigsforstander. Det lyder jo til, at det nærmest har været skridtet før et morsesignal, runer og brevduer.'

www.bt.dk

The DRF has announced that it's communication will change - for the better - after the confusion at Easter where no one really knew who was Rigsforstander and a flag was observed over FX&QM's residence Thursday, indicating that either Christian Queen Mary or King Frederik was in residence. - But who?!? Apparently it was Queen Mary who joined her family later.
The press was according to this article told to look at the flags to learn was Rigsforstander, or call the DRF or look up in Statstidende (where all sorts of government and state announcements must be published.)
The PR office also announced that the Regent Couple (with family we must assume) went on Easter Holiday last Saturday. But Now it seems Queen Mary joined her family later. (Ill perhaps? A lot of people are ill these days.)

- Okay, the whole family may indeed have officially gone on holiday last Saturday, as in no engagements nor being at the office for any of us, so in that sense the announcement is technically true, albeit poorly worded.)
And to urge the press (and as such the public) to: Figure out yourselves who is Rigsforstander... - Come on!!

- If this is correct. And unfortunately I see little reason to doubt it, the DRF communication is now worse than under QMII, where it at times was truly terrible!

This is bad! Really, seriously bad. Because communication is key nowadays. Both as a service to the public, but also to service the press, that's after all the whole purpose with a PR office. There is no reason to unnecessary annoy the press. And as we have seen with BRF, poor communication can easily get out of control.

I can't free myself from a nagging thought in the back of my mind as whether the often poorly handled communications glitches we have seen in recent years wasn't that much down to QMII, but just as much, if not more, down to her executive officer: CP Frederik. Who is now boss. - And as such also his closest advisor: Queen Mary.

This is an issue they must deal with! ASAP.
Get a professional PR bureau in and listen to their advise.

Good communication both for the DRF, for businesses, for people in the public eye, even ordinary people, is vital nowadays.
King Frederik declared in his manifesto that things will be done differently. - Yeah, well this is obviously not the way to do in.

 

[Prinsara]

Were you not being serious when the beginning of your post said things were being changed for the better, @Muhler?