Titles of the Swedish RF and Changes 2019

[LadyFinn]

Svensk Damtidning last week:

Crisis in Europe's monarchies! Victoria & Estelle will save our royal family
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We sort out the crisis in Europe's monarchies - and are grateful to Crown Princess Victoria and Princess Estelle!
You can safely say that there are new times in royal Europe. In recent years we have seen -one royal icon after another disappearing to the left.
Princess Madeleine, Prince Carl Philip, Princess Sofia and all their five children are out of the picture. Prince Joachim and Princess Marie have left the Danish field and moved to Paris. Yes, even Prince Harry, Princess Diana's charm prince son, has left the arena with Meghan in dramatic form.
Everywhere we see the same thing - royal families are becoming smaller throughout Europe. But here in Sweden we are strong - thanks to the duo Crown Princess Victoria and Princess Estelle! They are the future and those who will save the Swedish monarchy.
And as they will do it! We can feel completely safe with our wise, empathetic and strong crown princess at the helm. Estelle, in turn, attends her mother's queen's school, and she listens and takes in everything with big eyes and ears.
If we are lucky we will also see Princess Madeleine, Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia when it is time for the Nobel party and the King's birthday. But then it won't be much more.
A huge change, especially for Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip who were born into all this. For their children, who have been deprived of their titles, it probably makes no difference at all, they are all so tiny that they have not even realized that they are royal. And they have never lived other than the usual ordinary life.
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[Mbruno]

Wikipedia mentions an alleged Swedish order of precedence although it does not provide any hard reference to back it up.



Assuming, however, that the aforementioned order of precedence is correct, it places the members of the Royal House on top, followed by the King's sisters as members of the King's extended family (but not of the Royal House) and, then, by the high-ranking civil authorities or officials of the Royal Court like the Speaker of the Parliament, the Prime Minister, the Marshal of the Realm, and so on, so forth.


Given that Prince Carl Philip's and Princess Madeleine's have been now moved from members of the Royal House to members of the extended Royal Family, has their precedence also been changed ? One possible guess is that they are now placed below all members of the Royal House (including Princess Birgitta), but above the King's other sisters and, among themselves, are accorded precedence according to their place in the line of succession. I don't know if that assumption is correct though.



Did the Court issue any statement about the precedence of the King's grandchildren after they ceased to be HRHs ? Any information on that topic and the Swedish order of precedence in general is appreciated.

 

[JR76]

Wikipedia mentions an alleged Swedish order of precedence although it does not provide any hard reference to back it up.



Assuming, however, that the aforementioned order of precedence is correct, it places the members of the Royal House on top, followed by the King's sisters as members of the King's extended family (but not of the Royal House) and, then, by the high-ranking civil authorities or officials of the Royal Court like the Speaker of the Parliament, the Prime Minister, the Marshal of the Realm, and so on, so forth.


Given that Prince Carl Philip's and Princess Madeleine's have been now moved from members of the Royal House to members of the extended Royal Family, has their precedence also been changed ? One possible guess is that they are now placed below all members of the Royal House (including Princess Birgitta), but above the King's other sisters and, among themselves, are accorded precedence according to their place in the line of succession. I don't know if that assumption is correct though.



Did the Court issue any statement about the precedence of the King's grandchildren after they ceased to be HRHs ? Any information on that topic and the Swedish order of precedence in general is appreciated.

The Court calender hasn't included an Order of Precedence since 2012. A post on Kungahuset.se from 2011 about one of the representationdinners mentions seating according to the OoP but as that was before it was last published in the CC then who knows what's valid today. It's worth mentioning that the OoP is a guide on how to seat people at official and royal functions but without any legal standing and therefore never mandatory with exceptions often made for people without a formal rank.
Apparently the CC for 2019 was delayed to be able to include the changes regarding the King's grandchildren but I don't know what's written. Probably nothing more than moving them from the Royal House to the Royal family.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The Court calender hasn't included an Order of Precedence since 2012. A post on Kungahuset.se from 2011 about one of the representationdinners mentions seating according to the OoP but as that was before it was last published in the CC then who knows what's valid today. It's worth mentioning that the OoP is a guide on how to seat people at official and royal functions but without any legal standing and therefore never mandatory with exceptions often made for people without a formal rank.
Apparently the CC for 2019 was delayed to be able to include the changes regarding the King's grandchildren but I don't know what's written. Probably nothing more than moving them from the Royal House to the Royal family.

Interesting. Has the Court Calendar been published on the website?

Wikipedia mentions an alleged Swedish order of precedence although it does not provide any hard reference to back it up.



Assuming, however, that the aforementioned order of precedence is correct, it places the members of the Royal House on top, followed by the King's sisters as members of the King's extended family (but not of the Royal House) and, then, by the high-ranking civil authorities or officials of the Royal Court like the Speaker of the Parliament, the Prime Minister, the Marshal of the Realm, and so on, so forth.


Given that Prince Carl Philip's and Princess Madeleine's have been now moved from members of the Royal House to members of the extended Royal Family, has their precedence also been changed ? One possible guess is that they are now placed below all members of the Royal House (including Princess Birgitta), but above the King's other sisters and, among themselves, are accorded precedence according to their place in the line of succession. I don't know if that assumption is correct though.



Did the Court issue any statement about the precedence of the King's grandchildren after they ceased to be HRHs ? Any information on that topic and the Swedish order of precedence in general is appreciated.

The listing of the members of the Royal Family on the palace website places the King's grandchildren ahead of the King's sisters.

Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus

On a related note, two other modifications to the Kungafamiljen web page were made: The portrait of the King and Queen together with their descendants with their spouses was substituted with a portrait of the direct line of succession, and, for less clear reasons, the statement "The Royal House of Sweden belongs to the house of Bernadotte, which for over 200 years has occupied the throne of Sweden" was added.

 

[JR76]

Interesting. Has the Court Calendar been published on the website?

No you have to order a paper copy from Riksmarskalsämbetet (The Office of the Marshal of the Realm).

The listing of the members of the Royal Family on the palace website places the King's grandchildren ahead of the King's sisters.

Probably because the children are still in the line of succession while the King's sisters never were.

 

[Somebody]

Do you have a source for this? I am aware of the announcement regarding Jonas Bergström, but official spokespersons and Chris O'Neill himself (in an interview in 2018) have talked of his refusal to become a prince.

Thanks for the link, I had not read that interview previously. However, it does not state that he was offered a prince title. In the first part he clearly states that he was not interested in taking on public assignments (his way of describing taking up a 'royal role') nor title (he preferred to remain mr Christopher O'Neill); and even says 'it was never an option' - this might mean that he made it clear from the start that he wasn't interested in any of it or that it was never offered. In the end, he indeed states that he was offered it once but said no; still I wonder whether he is generally talking about 'a royal role & a title that comes with it' and not necessarily the 'offer of becoming a prince'. Given that he also said he made it clear from the start that he was not interested in royal life, I don't think he ever received a formal 'offer' to become a prince of Sweden. In addition, I still cannot imagine the king offering Jonas only a ducal title but Chris to become a prince. However, unless Chris explains in more detailed how all discussions went, I don't think we will know for sure.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Thanks for the link, I had not read that interview previously. However, it does not state that he was offered a prince title. In the first part he clearly states that he was not interested in taking on public assignments (his way of describing taking up a 'royal role') nor title (he preferred to remain mr Christopher O'Neill); and even says 'it was never an option' - this might mean that he made it clear from the start that he wasn't interested in any of it or that it was never offered. In the end, he indeed states that he was offered it once but said no; still I wonder whether he is generally talking about 'a royal role & a title that comes with it' and not necessarily the 'offer of becoming a prince'. Given that he also said he made it clear from the start that he was not interested in royal life, I don't think he ever received a formal 'offer' to become a prince of Sweden.

You're very welcome. I missed that you had moved your response to this thread.

Well, but the interviewer asked precisely about a "prince title", not a "royal role":

Skulle du överväga en prinstitel den dag du går i pension?
– Det har jag aldrig ens tänkt på.

Så du säger inte nej?
– Det är ett erbjudande man bara får en gång i livet. Jag svarade nej.

(Will you consider a prince title when you retire?
- It's not something I've ever even considered.

So you aren't saying no?
- It's an offer you only get once in a lifetime. I said no.)

In addition, spokespersons for the palace have referred to a "prince title", in this quote from Margareta Thorgren for example.

Diskussionen om Chris bolag påbörjades långt innan Chris O'Neill och Madeleines bröllop. Det var i samband med att man gjorde ställningstaganden kring Chris eventuella prinstitel.

(The discussion on Chris's company began long before Chris O'Neill and Madeleine's wedding. It was with regard to arriving at a determination about Chris's possible prince title.)

In addition, I still cannot imagine the king offering Jonas only a ducal title but Chris to become a prince. However, unless Chris explains in more detailed how all discussions went, I don't think we will know for sure.

Do we know what the king offered to Jonas Bergström? According to the articles I have located, only the final decision was published.

Given that it was stated that Jonas would continue working (as a lawyer) after marriage, I think it is at least a possibility that he was offered the same choice between his career and a prince title as Christopher O'Neill:

Mr Christopher O'Neill's title

Mr Christopher O'Neill is and remains an American citizen, and he intends to continue his business activities as before following his marriage to H.R.H. Princess Madeleine. In accordance with royal protocol, a member of the Royal Family should be a Swedish citizen, and should not hold a position of responsibility within business.

This means that, in accordance with these principles, Mr Christopher O'Neill cannot hold the title H.R.H. Prince of Sweden or Duke of Gästrikland and Hälsingland.

If anyone pressed for titles, I guess that, chronologically, it must have been Princess Madeleine for the simple reason that Leonore was born before Carl Philip's sons. It would have been odd for CP to opine about her sister's children's titles and much less to raise that issue with his parents.

But it would be the natural timeframe for arriving at a decision for Carl Philip's future children as well.

No you have to order a paper copy from Riksmarskalsämbetet (The Office of the Marshal of the Realm).

I see. If anybody orders a paper copy of the calendar for 2019, I would be curious to know whether it confirms that the grandchildren have lost the territorial designation "of Sweden".

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

About the future status of children of spares

Lennart Bernadotte is the only child of a spare that received a princely title, a ducal title and succession rights before he gave them up for an unequal marriage. He is the only son of Wilhelm, the second son of Gustaf V.

Succession rights, 1916.10.31

• Gustaf V (Värmland)
  
  • Gustaf VI Adolf (Skåne)
    • Gustaf Adolf (Västerbotten), sired the 4 Haga Princesses and Carl XVI Gustaf
    • Sigvard (Uppland, lsr 1934), children had no Swedish titles
    • Bertil (Halland), childless
    • Carl Johan (Dalarna, lsr 1946), children had no Swedish titles
  • Wilhelm (Södermanland)
    • Lennart (Småland, lsr 1932), children had no Swedish titles
  • Erik (Västmanland), childless
• Oscar (Gotland, lsr 1889)
  • Folke (no succession rights)
  [*]Carl (Västergötland)
  
  • Carl (Östergötland, lsr 1937), children had no Swedish titles
  [*]Eugen (Närke), childless

lsr = lost succession rights

At that time there are 11 active duchies in Sweden (13 if you count Gustaf V who was reigning and Oscar who lost it as of 1889). That is all 6 provinces in Svealand plus 4 from pre-1658 Götaland, 2 from the Scanian lands and 1 from Norrland.
-
As of 2019, the succession list is as follows:

• Carl XVI Gustaf (Jämtland)
  • Victoria (Västergötland)
    • Estelle (Östergötland)
    • Oscar (Skåne)
  • Carl Philip (Värmland)
    • Alexander (Södermanland)
    • Gabriel (Dalarna)
  • Madeleine (Hälsingland and Gästrikland)
    • Leonore (Gotland)
    • Nicolas (Ångermanland)
    • Adrienne (Blekinge)

There are 12 active duchies now (if we count Carl XVI Gustaf's duchy and Madeleine's double duchy in, too).
4 of them are from Norrland, 5 from Götaland, and 3 from Svealand.

Something in common is that children of spares (e.g. Lennart and Carl, as well as Leonore and Alexander) have ducal titles though Lennart and Carl lost them due to unequal marriage while Leonore and Alexander kept them while being freed of royal duties. Will Oscar (Duke of Skåne)'s children receive no ducal titles?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Something in common is that children of spares (e.g. Lennart and Carl, as well as Leonore and Alexander) have ducal titles though Lennart and Carl lost them due to unequal marriage while Leonore and Alexander kept them while being freed of royal duties. Will Oscar (Duke of Skåne)'s children receive no ducal titles?

Nothing was stated at the press conference last year regarding titles of future members of the Royal Family, other than that the princely and ducal titles of Alexander, Gabriel, Leonore, Nicolas, and Adrienne will not be shared with their spouses or children (and the reigning monarch is in principle entitled to reverse that decision whenever they please).

Lennart Bernadotte is the only child of a spare that received a princely title, a ducal title and succession rights before he gave them up for an unequal marriage. He is the only son of Wilhelm, the second son of Gustaf V.

As you pointed out later in your post, the same happened to Prince Carl, Duke of Östergötland, the only son of the third son of King Oscar II. Until 2019, there was no titular differentiation between the child of an heir and the child of a spare.

 

[Somebody]

Lennart Bernadotte is the only child of a spare that received a princely title, a ducal title and succession rights before he gave them up for an unequal marriage. He is the only son of Wilhelm, the second son of Gustaf V.

There are 12 active duchies now (if we count Carl XVI Gustaf's duchy and Madeleine's double duchy in, too).
4 of them are from Norrland, 5 from Götaland, and 3 from Svealand.

Something in common is that children of spares (e.g. Lennart and Carl, as well as Leonore and Alexander) have ducal titles though Lennart and Carl lost them due to unequal marriage while Leonore and Alexander kept them while being freed of royal duties. Will Oscar (Duke of Skåne)'s children receive no ducal titles?

I'd say the main difference in these situations is that those who lost their titles are no longer in the line of succession while those who kept them still are (although I still think it's a bit weird that it is up to the Swedish royal family to interpret the rules regarding whether Madeleine's children can remain in the line of succession while not growing up in Sweden).

 

[Mbruno]

I'd say the main difference in these situations is that those who lost their titles are no longer in the line of succession while those who kept them still are (although I still think it's a bit weird that it is up to the Swedish royal family to interpret the rules regarding whether Madeleine's children can remain in the line of succession while not growing up in Sweden).

The Court's interpretation seems to be that, since they are no longer members of the Royal House, Madeleine's and Carl Philip's children are no longer subject to the requirements in the Act of Succession that apply explicitly to "Princes and Princesses of the Royal House", namely:


1) Being raised in Sweden.


2) Having to obtain the consent of the Swedish government (granted upon application by the King) to marry.


3) Having to obtain the consent of the King and of the Parliament of Sweden to become the sovereign of a foreign state.



According to the Court, the only requirement that still applies to them as far as succession rights are concerned is to profess the "pure evangelical faith" as described and adopted in the unaltered Confession of Augsburg and the resolutions of the synod of Uppsala of 1593. That is because, according to the Act of Succession, any member of the Royal Family (as opposed to the Royal House) not professing that faith is excluded from all rights of succession.



I am not sure if I agree with this interpretation, but I think it has little practical significance given CP's and Madeleine's children's position in the line of succession. It will be an issue, probably only for Alexander and Gabriel, in the unlikely event that neither Estelle nor Oscar have any children of their own.

 

[Somebody]

The Court's interpretation seems to be that, since they are no longer members of the Royal House, Madeleine's and Carl Philip's children are no longer subject to the requirements in the Act of Succession that apply explicitly to "Princes and Princesses of the Royal House", namely:

1) Being raised in Sweden.

2) Having to obtain the consent of the Swedish government (granted upon application by the King) to marry.

3) Having to obtain the consent of the King and of the Parliament of Sweden to become the sovereign of a foreign state.

According to the Court, the only requirement that still applies to them as far as succession rights are concerned is to profess the "pure evangelical faith" as described and adopted in the unaltered Confession of Augsburg and the resolutions of the synod of Uppsala of 1593. That is because, according to the Act of Succession, any member of the Royal Family (as opposed to the Royal House) not professing that faith is excluded from all rights of succession.

I am not sure if I agree with this interpretation, but I think it has little practical significance given CP's and Madeleine's children's position in the line of succession. It will be an issue, probably only for Alexander and Gabriel, in the unlikely event that neither Estelle nor Oscar have any children of their own.

Yes, that's indeed how they interpreted it. Of course, these regulations were never meant to provide a way out of the regulations pertaining to those with succession rights - everyone with succession rights would be expected to be a member of the royal house and a prince(ss) of Sweden, so those rules would apply to each and everyone in the line of succession. By kicking them out of the royal houses and removing the 'of Sweden' (but keeping them princes and princesses and continuing their ducal titles) they circumvented the rules... And I don't think it should be up to the royal house themselves to decide whether this is allowable.

 

[JR76]

And I don't think it should be up to the royal house themselves to decide whether this is allowable.

I have a feeling that there will be developments in that area once the parliamentary inquiry into, among other things, a reform of the finances of the court and how that will affect who in the Royal family is expected to carry out representative duties. I think that the court is being consciously vague not to set a precedent that could back them into a corner in the future and keep as much of leeway as possible.

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

I have a feeling that there will be developments in that area once the parliamentary inquiry into, among other things, a reform of the finances of the court and how that will affect who in the Royal family is expected to carry out representative duties.

If the current rules are retroactively applied in 1916,
It's unsure if Carl and Eugen (brothers of Gustaf V) would remain members of the House, though they would have minimal duties (like Princess Birgitta) and would very likely not receive taxpayer money.
-
Prince Carl, Duke of Östergötland would not be a member of the house when he was born and he would not have an HRH to begin with.
-
Gustaf V's 3 sons, Gustaf VI Adolf, Wilhelm and Erik would have retained HRHs
and would very likely be receiving taxpayer money (like Victoria, Carl Philip and Madeleine).
-
Wilhelm's son, Lennart, would not be a member of the house, and similar to Carl, he would not have an HRH to begin with.
-
Gustaf VI Adolf had had 4 sons by that time, and all of them would be funded by appanage and be styled HRH.
-
The Swedish people would have 8 royal house members (excluding their spouses) to fund as opposed to 12 that happened in reality.
-
In 2019 the Swedes funded 6 royal house members (excluding their spouses) instead of 11 in 2018.
-
Keeping the royal house simple is always a subject matter in Sweden. Perhaps the max number of royal house members should be set at 10 in case Estelle chose to have 4 children as it was done à la Philippe of Belgium and Frederik X of Denmark?

 

[Somebody]

I have a feeling that there will be developments in that area once the parliamentary inquiry into, among other things, a reform of the finances of the court and how that will affect who in the Royal family is expected to carry out representative duties. I think that the court is being consciously vague not to set a precedent that could back them into a corner in the future and keep as much of leeway as possible.

Thanks! When is the report expected? It indeed makes sense to wait for a more thorough review.

I had the impression the court seems to think that Madeleine's children will remain in the line of succession while growing up in the States... is that something that only has been attributed to them or is did truly what they or more likely their representatives stated.

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

Dukedoms of Bernadotte Sweden and their positions in line

Monarch/Xth/Yth/Zth = the Monarch's Xth son/child's Yth son/child's Zth son/child.
(Son before 1977, Child after 1977)
* = Dukedom created after 1818

=SÖDERMANLAND=
Oscar I (Carl XIV Johan/1st)
Carl Oscar (Oscar I/1st/1st)
Wilhelm (Oscar II/1st/2nd)
Alexander (Carl XVI Gustaf/2nd/1st)

=SKÅNE*=
Carl XV (Carl XIV Johan/1st/1st)
Gustaf VI Adolf (Oscar II/1st/1st)
Oscar (Carl XVI Gustaf/1st/2nd)

=UPPLAND=
Gustaf (Carl XIV Johan/1st/2nd, died 1852 before Oscar II ascended in 1872)
Sigvard (Oscar II/1st/1st/2nd, later Count of Wisborg)

=ÖSTERGÖTLAND=
Oscar II (Carl XIV Johan/1st/3rd)
Carl (Oscar II/3rd/1st though Gustaf V was already king by 1911, later granted Belgian "Prince" title)
Estelle (Carl XVI Gustaf/1st/1st)

=DALARNA*=
August (Carl XIV Johan/1st/4th)
Carl Johan (Gustaf V/1st/4th, later CoW)
Gabriel (Carl XVI Gustaf/2nd/2nd)

=VÄRMLAND=
Gustaf V (Oscar I/3rd/1st)
Carl Philip (Carl XVI Gustaf/2nd)

=GOTLAND*=
Oscar (Oscar I/3rd/2nd, later CoW)
Leonore (Carl XVI Gustaf/3rd/1st)

=VÄSTERGÖTLAND=
Carl (Oscar I/3rd/3rd)
Victoria (Carl XVI Gustaf/1st)

=NÄRKE=
Eugen (Oscar I/3rd/4th)

=VÄSTMANLAND=
Erik (Oscar II/1st/3rd)

=VÄSTERBOTTEN*=
Gustaf Adolf (Oscar II/1st/1st/1st)

=HALLAND=
Bertil (Gustaf V/1st/3rd)

=SMÅLAND=
Lennart (Gustaf V/2nd/1st, later CoW)

=JÄMTLAND*=
Carl XVI Gustaf (Gustaf V/1st/1st/1st)

=HÄLSINGLAND & GÄSTRIKLAND*=
Madeleine (Carl XVI Gustaf/3rd)

=ÅNGERMANLAND*=
Nicolas (Carl XVI Gustaf/3rd/2nd)

=BLEKINGE*=
Adrienne (Carl XVI Gustaf/3rd/3rd)

As of now, no Bernadotte has ever received the dukedoms of:
Dalsland, Öland, Bohuslän, Härjedalen, Medelpad, Lappland (and Norrbotten, which was created a county in 1810 but a province in 1995). The former 2 had dukes before 1818 but the latter 5 have never had dukes.

Conclusion:

1. The heir apparent to the heir apparent to the heir apparent
   usually receive new dukedoms from Norrland at birth.
   (If Carl XVI Gustaf became a centenarian, Estelle would be 34 at that time,
   and she will probably have had a child by then.
   Maybe she (I hope it's a princess) will be known as the Duchess of Norrbotten?)
2. Otherwise, new dukedoms are usually granted to those who placed lower in the line
   (e.g. Gotland, Hälsingland & Gästrikland, Ångermanland, Blekinge, Dalarna)
   while those higher tends to reuse dukedoms (e.g. Södermanland, Östergötland, Värmland).
   Skåne is an exception.

 

[Countessmeout]

If they stick to modern Swedish provinces, there are 5 never used. Two on your list have been used by royal dukes. I don't see the Bernadottes emphasizing their French roots by ignoring they have been used.

The ones left
Bohulsan
Härjedalen
Lapland
Medelpad
Norbotten

Dalsand has had 4 royals dukes, the last one dying in 1595. Oland has had five. The last being Charles X Gustav.

Two natural sons of Oscar I were unofficially called Princes of Lapland. But I don't think that would count against Lapland.

Sorry but I don't get your numbering. How is Alexander 2nd/ 1st of Carl Gustaf? Oscar is. Oscar is the 2nd child of the 1st child of Carl Gustaf. Alexander should be 1st/2nd of Carl Gustaf as he is the 1st son of the 2nd child of Carl Gustaf.

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

If they stick to modern Swedish provinces, there are 5 never used. Two on your list have been used by royal dukes. I don't see the Bernadottes emphasizing their French roots by ignoring they have been used.

The ones left
Bohulsan
Härjedalen
Lapland
Medelpad
Norbotten

Dalsand has had 4 royals dukes, the last one dying in 1595. Oland has had five. The last being Charles X Gustav.

Of course. But no Bernadotte has ever been granted the dukedoms of Dalsland and Öland, which have been granted to princes before 1818, but not after. Carolus X Gustavus is not a Bernadotte, yet this thread focuses on the Bernadottes.

Sorry but I don't get your numbering. How is Alexander 2nd/ 1st of Carl Gustaf? Oscar is. Oscar is the 2nd child of the 1st child of Carl Gustaf. Alexander should be 1st/2nd of Carl Gustaf as he is the 1st son of the 2nd child of Carl Gustaf.

Read carefully at the beginning of the post first. Xth/Yth means Yth child of the Xth child of the monarch. It is done for the sake of hierarchy just like in YYYY-MM-DD or in computer file paths. It may be a bit difficult for speakers of English to understand, but I also speak Cantonese apart from English and Swedish. "1st/2nd" is "the 1st child's 2nd child" = "the 2nd child of the 1st child" = "1:a barnets 2:a barn".

 

[Countessmeout]

But the Bernadottes are not a stand alone. Its not like we are talking a new country. It would be like the House of Windsor having ignored the tradition, like Prince of Wales, of former royal houses before them. The fact that those royal duchies have been held by other princes of Sweden, does impact whether they may be used or not in the future as a 'new duchy'. Oland would not be a new duchy, if they were looking to honor a new province.

I guess I don't see the need for a still confusing as heck Key to read your list.

You either need to put Carl Gustaf at the start or you need to reverse the numbers. It doesn't make sense in English in your order.

Either Carl Gustaf's 2nd child's 1st son

or the 1st son of the 2nd child of Carl Gustaf

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

But the Bernadottes are not a stand alone. Its not like we are talking a new country. It would be like the House of Windsor having ignored the tradition, like Prince of Wales, of former royal houses before them. The fact that those royal duchies have been held by other princes of Sweden, does impact whether they may be used or not in the future as a 'new duchy'. Oland would not be a new duchy, if they were looking to honor a new province.

Yes. That's why I didn't put asterisks on Närke, Västmanland, Halland and Småland as though there are only 1 Bernadotte each holding the dukedoms there are princes before them who hold the duchies. I would have done the same for Öland and Dalsland if a Bernadotte was created a duke of these two lands, because these dukedoms have already existed before 1818.

I guess I don't see the need for a still confusing as heck Key to read your list.

You either need to put Carl Gustaf at the start or you need to reverse the numbers. It doesn't make sense in English in your order.

Either Carl Gustaf's 2nd child's 1st son

or the 1st son of the 2nd child of Carl Gustaf

I wanted to emphasize the position in line, so I put the position first. And since primogeniture works on the basis that the 1st son's 2nd son preceeds the 2nd son, the first generation has to be put in the first place.

But if this thread is made to be more readable for English speakers, I'll do it. (Carl XVI Gustaf/1st/2nd) for Oscar it will be.

 

[JR76]

Two natural sons of Oscar I were unofficially called Princes of Lapland. But I don't think that would count against Lapland.

Hjalmar and Max were nicknamed the princes of Lappland by their mother Emelie Högquist so it was never an official title. The two were never officially acknowledged by their father King Oscar I. The title of prince (prins) has never been used by non-royals in Sweden.

 

[Mbruno]

The impression I get from the 2019 announcement is that, in the future, grandchildren of the monarch who are not children of the heir to the throne will not be members of the Royal House and, accordingly, neither princes/princesses nor dukes/duchesses.


CP's and Madeleine's children probably remained princes/princesses by courtesy because they were previously HRHs, just like Carl Gustaf's sisters when they also lost the HRH. They also retained their duchies probably not to upset the people of the affected provinces.

There is no current legal regulation in Sweden for the royal duchies, but the text of the last available legal regulation in the Instrument of Government of 1809 (Paragraph 45) explicitly said, I believe, that the duchies could be awarded only to the Crown Prince or Princes of the Royal House. So it is clear to me that they were meant to be associated with membership of the Royal House.

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

So in your opinion, what dukedom would you want Estelle's daughter (or son) to hold if Carl XVI Gustaf is still well alive by then? (in the late 2030s or early/mid-2040s, I guess, he would be in his 90s)
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I'd go for Norrbotten. Härjedalen and Medelpad would also be possible choices. Similar to Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Västerbotten and Carl XVI Gustaf, born Duke of Jämtland, I think she'll have a new dukedom in Norrland as they three are all heir apparent to the heir apparent to the heir apparent.
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But if Carl XVI Gustaf unfortunately passes away before Estelle has her own child, it's highly likely that the Dukedom will come from Svealand and Götaland.
There would only be Småland, Öland, Halland, Uppland, Västmanland, Närke as inactive duchies by then (For the more prominent duchies: Östergötland is used by herself, Värmland by her uncle, Skåne by her brother, Södermanland by her cousin).
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Then I will think that Uppland will be the choice as the previous dukes of Uppland have a fairly high position in line to the throne.

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

The impression I get from the 2019 announcement is that, in the future, grandchildren of the monarch who are not children of the heir to the throne will not be members of the Royal House and, accordingly, neither princes/princesses nor dukes/duchesses.


CP's and Madeleine's children probably remained princes/princesses by courtesy because they were previously HRHs, just like Carl Gustaf's sisters when they also lost the HRH. They also retained their duchies probably not to upset the people of the affected provinces.

There is no current legal regulation in Sweden for the royal duchies, but the text of the last available legal regulation in the Instrument of Government of 1809 (Paragraph 45) explicitly said, I believe, that the duchies could be awarded only to the Crown Prince or Princes of the Royal House. So it is clear to me that they were meant to be associated with membership of the Royal House.

You're right. And if that is so Lennart and Carl would not have received the ducal titles if the Royal House simplification was retrospectively applied in 1916.

"Hvarken Svea rikes kronprins eller arffurste eller prinsar af det konungsliga huset skola hafva något lifgeding eller civilt embete; dock kunna efter gammalt bruk titlar af hertigdömen och furstendömen dem tilläggas, utan rättighet till de landskap, hvilkas namn de bära." Instrument of Government, 1809. However, in the 1975 Instrument of Government the word "hertig" did not appear at all.

"Konungsliga huset" corresponds to "Kungliga huset" today which excludes the five grandchildren. The article says that No Swedish Princes of the Royal House should have life estates or civil offices/titles, though they (Swedish Princes of the Royal House) can use Ducal titles granted upon them without rights to the provinces. If no amendments are made I assume Oscar's children will not be granted dukedoms if they are announced to not be members of the house (the 2019 announcement was one-off in nature as opposed to the Netherlands which set permanent rules regulating house membership), no matter whether Carl XVI Gustaf is alive or not by then.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The impression I get from the 2019 announcement is that, in the future, grandchildren of the monarch who are not children of the heir to the throne will not be members of the Royal House and, accordingly, neither princes/princesses nor dukes/duchesses.

I haven't found any inklings in the announcements or the press conference regarding the titles of Prince Oscar's future children. Can you highlight the quote which gives you the impression that they will be neither princesses/princes nor duchess/dukes, now that those titles are no longer limited to members of the Royal House?

 

[Mbruno]

I haven't found any inklings in the announcements or the press conference regarding the titles of Prince Oscar's future children. Can you highlight the quote which gives you the impression that they will be neither princesses/princes nor duchess/dukes, now that those titles are no longer limited to members of the Royal House?

It is a just a matter of consistency. CP's and Madeleine's children were excluded from the Royal House because they are not children of the heir. By analogy, the same should apply to Oscar's children.

On your second question, my point was that duchies were restricted under the Instrument of Government of 1809 to members of the Royal House. Although there is no legal regulation today for the duchies, there is no reason to believe that, in the future, non-members of the Royal House will be given duchies. CP's and Madeleine's children do not set a precedent IMHO because they were given their duchies while they were still members of the Royal House and not thereafter.

You are right, however, that nothing was explicitly said about Oscar's future children's titles.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I agree with the expectation that Prince Oscar's future children will not be members of the Royal House. The reason for the exclusion of the five grandchildren from the Royal House in 2019 was to put a cap on the number of royals who would expect financial support from taxpayers, and I am not expecting taxpayer attitudes to change in the next 30 years or so to favor an expanded budget for the Royal House, although that cannot be ruled out.

However, given the major departures from precedent that have already been announced (former members of the Royal House permitted to retain their duchies, titles not to be shared with spouses), I don't think precedent can be relied on to predict the future titles of Prince Oscar's children.

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

I agree with the expectation that Prince Oscar's future children will not be members of the Royal House. The reason for the exclusion of the five grandchildren from the Royal House in 2019 was to put a cap on the number of royals who would expect financial support from taxpayers, and I am not expecting taxpayer attitudes to change in the next 30 years or so to favor an expanded budget for the Royal House, although that cannot be ruled out.

However, given the major departures from precedent that have already been announced (former members of the Royal House permitted to retain their duchies, titles not to be shared with spouses), I don't think precedent can be relied on to predict the future titles of Prince Oscar's children.

Yes. I have pointed out that the 2019 Communiqué is one-off by official nature, but it will take another communiqué in the 2030s to determine whether Oscar's children will have titles. It's all assumption at the moment being.

 

[JR76]

Thanks! When is the report expected? It indeed makes sense to wait for a more thorough review.

I had the impression the court seems to think that Madeleine's children will remain in the line of succession while growing up in the States... is that something that only has been attributed to them or is did truly what they or more likely their representatives stated.

The inquiry has until June 15, 2021 at the latest to present the result of the inquiry but is allowed to publish interim reports earlier if it's deemed necessary and suitable.
The court seem to base their conclusion that the children of Princess Madeleine can remain in the Line of succession on the fact that the Order of succession specifically states that the limitations regarding religion and education are for "princes and princesses of the Royal House" alone. If that is the case it would also mean that the stipulation about the 5 princes & princesses having to have the monarchs formal consent to get married or become a ruler of a foreign country are no longer valid.

 

[Somebody]

The inquiry has until June 15, 2021 at the latest to present the result of the inquiry but is allowed to publish interim reports earlier if it's deemed necessary and suitable.
The court seem to base their conclusion that the children of Princess Madeleine can remain in the Line of succession on the fact that the Order of succession specifically states that the limitations regarding religion and education are for "princes and princesses of the Royal House" alone. If that is the case it would also mean that the stipulation about the 5 princes & princesses having to have the monarchs formal consent to get married or become a ruler of a foreign country are no longer valid.

Hmm, that's an interesting point. So, while Estelle would loose her place in the line of succession is she would marry Christian of Denmark (unless she would receive permission to do so), Leonore could theoretically do so without any consequences (according to the SRF's interpretation) to her rights to the Swedish throne.