Titles of the Swedish RF and Changes 2019

[xenobia]

Since duke/duchesss is just honorary titles in Sweden - no economic or otherwise practical function - I assume that it's not set in stone how things work with those titles. It's very different from the UK. Most people here don't know who is duke/duchess of Östergötland, Skåne or Västerbotten.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

And about someone saying that the agnatic line of Bernadottes will no longer be Princes of Sweden, would it be possible that the children of Prince Alexander be introduced into the Luxembourgish/Belgian nobility like how they did with the brothers of Gustaf VI Adolf?

Luxembourg is categorically off the table now. The constitutional revision that came into effect on July 1, 2023 limited the Grand Duke to creating titles of nobility for members of the Grand-Ducal Family only.

"Art. 52. Le Grand-Duc a le droit de conférer des titres de noblesse aux membres de la famille grand-ducale, sans pouvoir jamais y attacher de privilège."

https://legilux.public.lu/eli/etat/leg/constitution/1868/10/17/n1/consolide/20230701

 

[doro]

Since duke/duchesss is just honorary titles in Sweden - no economic or otherwise practical function - I assume that it's not set in stone how things work with those titles. It's very different from the UK. Most people here don't know who is duke/duchess of Östergötland, Skåne or Västerbotten.

The title of Duke/Duchess of Västerbotten is inactive since the tragic death of Prince Gustaf Adolf and the death of Princess Sibylla. Hopefully we will see when Victoria and Daniel becoming grandparents, or maybe the future grandchildren of Carl Philip or Madeleine

 

[Biri]

The title of Duke/Duchess of Västerbotten is inactive since the tragic death of Prince Gustaf Adolf and the death of Princess Sibylla. Hopefully we will see when Victoria and Daniel becoming grandparents, or maybe the future grandchildren of Carl Philip or Madeleine

As for potential grandchildren of Madeleine - it's very probable they will be born and raised and will live outside Sweden, so I doubt they will get any titles.
Especially if it comes for potential Madeleine's maternal grandchildren, who will be Master/Miss + given name + their father's surname.

 

[JR76]

As for potential grandchildren of Madeleine - it's very probable they will be born and raised and will live outside Sweden, so I doubt they will get any titles.

Especially if it comes for potential Madeleine's maternal grandchildren, who will be Master/Miss + given name + their father's surname.

Neither the grandchildren of Madeleine and Carl Philip will have any titles.

 

[Countessmeout]

Madeleine's grandchildren have equal potential to CP's of having titles. And by that we mean None.

That was made clear when the king stripped his grandchildren of their titles, and they were removed from the royal house. They were made private citizens with no role in the family officially. Except for the children of the heir.

To even think that the great-grandchildren of the king would be given a title, whether male or female line, is far fetched at best. If Vasterbotten is used, it will be used for one of Victoria's grandchildren.

If Victoria did the weird act of unslimming down the titles, I don't see her also reintroducing misogyny. And treating the children/grandchildren of Madeleine different then her brother. Considering her and daughter's place.

 

[Biri]

Children of Carl Philip and children of Madeleine were stripped only of HRH's titles; the courtesy ones (Duke/Duchess of + province) have remained.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Right... why would that make grandchildren of theirs any more likely to receive dukedoms?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Children of Carl Philip and children of Madeleine were stripped only of HRH's titles; the courtesy ones (Duke/Duchess of + province) have remained.

True, but when their removal from the Royal House was announced by the Royal Court, the Marshal of the Realm also announced that their partners and children would not share their titles.

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/kungligt/prinsbarnen-kommer-inte-tillhora-kungahuset/

Prins Alexander, prins Gabriel, prinsessan Leonore, prins Nicolas och prinsessan Adrienne är fortsatt medlemmar av Den kungliga familjen, och kommer även fortsatt att bära de titlar de tilldelats av kungen.

Deras titlar kommer dock inte att föras vidare till deras framtida partners och barn.​

Naturally, the intention is not legally binding, but the Marshal also confirmed that the change had been discussed within the family, so Crown Princess Victoria was most likely in agreement. But it is possible that the issue may be viewed differently in 20-30 years when the grandchildren are born.

Right... why would that make grandchildren of theirs any more likely to receive dukedoms?

Well, it would be less strange for a child of a duke/duchess to likewise be a duke/duchess than for the child to have a ducal title but not the parent.

 

[doro]

But they remained princes, the HRH title were removed

 

[principessa]

I guess that the children of Leonore and Adrienne will be Mr. or Miss "fathers surname". The children of Nicolas, Alexander, Gabriel and Julian I guess they will be Mr. or Mrs. Bernadotte.

 

[Biri]

I guess that the children of Leonore and Adrienne will be Mr. or Miss "fathers surname". The children of Nicolas, Alexander, Gabriel and Julian I guess they will be Mr. or Mrs. Bernadotte.

And what about Oscar's children?

 

[JR76]

And what about Oscar's children?

Judging from what's been said on the issue they will not carry any titles.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I wonder if we will see the Count/Countess of Bernadotte title being used in the future?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Judging from what's been said on the issue they will not carry any titles.

What was said that leads you to believe Oscar's children will be untitled?

 

[LadyFinn]

From press conference 2019

 

[crm2317]

Will the wives of Alexander, Gabriel, Julian and Nicolas be styled as

Mrs X Bernadotte, Duchess of Halland

Or simply be Mrs X Bernadotte

 

[principessa]

Will the wives of Alexander, Gabriel, Julian and Nicolas be styled as

Mrs X Bernadotte, Duchess of Halland

Or simply be Mrs X Bernadotte

I guess they will be Princess X Bernadotte, Duchess of .... and their children will be styled as Miss/Master X Bernadotte

 

[crm2317]

I guess they will be Princess X Bernadotte, Duchess of .... and their children will be styled as Miss/Master X Bernadotte

Oh ok thanks.
I read on the thread about the new princess that the wives and children of the current kings grandsons will not receive any titles.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

I wonder if we will see the Count/Countess of Bernadotte title being used in the future?

The problem is that the King of Sweden is not allowed to confer any other title than Prince or Duke… He is not allowed to ”make a Queen Margrethe” and give nobility titles to junior-line royals and divorced former royals…

Had the already existing title of ”Count Bernadotte of Wisborg” been swedish, it would have solved the problem with what to do with Carl Philip’s and Madeleine’s children and their descendants…

The option that remains, unless they are going to have a lot of plain ”Mr & Mrs Bernadotte” in the future is to ask a foreign head of state that still confereres titles to ennoble some of the swedish junior-line royals with hereditary titles.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The problem is that the King of Sweden is not allowed to confer any other title than Prince or Duke… He is not allowed to ”make a Queen Margrethe” and give nobility titles to junior-line royals and divorced former royals…

Had the already existing title of ”Count Bernadotte of Wisborg” been swedish, it would have solved the problem with what to do with Carl Philip’s and Madeleine’s children and their descendants…

The option that remains, unless they are going to have a lot of plain ”Mr & Mrs Bernadotte” in the future is to ask a foreign head of state that still confereres titles to ennoble some of the swedish junior-line royals.

I wonder if that issue can be resolved as it would be easier to use Count Bernadotte of Wisborg for the junior royals than creating dukedoms.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

I wonder if that issue can be resolved as it would be easier to use Count Bernadotte of Wisborg for the junior royals than creating dukedoms.

I’m afraid that title is in the hands of the Grand Duke of Luxembourg.. And i heard that Luxembourg had stopped ennoble foreign citizens so it doesn’t sound like that’s a possibility anymore…

Otherwise it would indeed have been the best solution.

 

[Stefan]

I’m afraid that title is in the hands of the Grand Duke of Luxembourg.. And i heard that Luxembourg had stopped ennoble foreign citizens so it doesn’t sound like that’s a possibility anymore…

Otherwise it would indeed have been the best solution.

I disagree. The best solution would be to allow the King to give noble Titles to junior-line royals like Queen Margrethe could do.

I wonder if that issue can be resolved as it would be easier to use Count Bernadotte of Wisborg for the junior royals than creating dukedoms.

The problem with the Dukedoms is that it are swedish provinces and at some point no one will be avalible

 

[Mbruno]

The problem with the Dukedoms is that it are swedish provinces and at some point no one will be avalible

My understanding is that the King's grandchildren born after 2019 (I think, Julian and Ines) were given duchies because their siblings already had one and their parents or the King didn't want them to be treated differently.

Going forward into the next generation, however, I believe it makes sense that only children of the Crown Prince or Crown Princess be awarded duchies. So, for example, when Victoria becomes Queen, Estelle's children would have duchies, but Oscar's children would not.

I also expect CP's and Madeleine's children to be removed from the line of succession when they get married as Queen Victoria will not request the government to consent to their marriages. It is a bit harsh,but it is a way of controlling the inflation in the number of princes and princesses. CP's and Madeleine's children may retain the prefix Prince/Princess and their duchies for life as a matter of courtesy (or maybe not as the Counts Bernadotte of Wisborg before them), but there will be no doubt that their respective children will not be in the line of succession and, therefore, will not be princes/princesses.

EDIT: There is no legal regulation on the awarding of duchies, as the previous provisions pertaining to this matter have been repealed as part of the old Instrument of Government of 1809. So, my understanding is that the use of the duchies falls solely into an unwritten royal prerogative and, as such, the KIng can limit them only to a subset of his grandchildren if he so decides, just as he can restrict the use of the HRH prefix.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Sooner or later it will have to be solved either way… The King likely feels that he has now done the (in his opinion) right thing and treated all his children and grandchildren equally - and now leaves it to Victoria how to handle the next generation…

I think almost everyone here in Sweden will agree that having Carl Philips and Madeleines grandchildren in the line of succession would be unacceptable as they are not children nor grandchildren of a monarch and will, barring any catastrophe, never be…

In the case of Leonor, Adrienne and Ines, the case may solve itself if they marries and gives up their titles like their great aunts, and becomes for example Princess Adrienne Mrs Johansson, and their children have ”normal” names…

Though it does not solve what to do with Prince Nicolas and Carl Philips 3 sons… Making them plain Mr Bernadotte would go against all tradition - yet i think it’s a likely scenario… Or if a solution can be found to make them ”Prince Bernadotte” for life, and then let their children have normal names…

The duchies/landscapes are frankly only ”titles on a paper” nowdays with no meaning, except tradition and most of all prestige and pr for the landscape… That’s why i don’t like that the King has handed them out to everybody… I understand that he didn’t wanted to treat his grandchildren differently, and that it is a sensitive topic for him - especially in regards to Carl Philips children… But it is enormous prestige and pr for a landscape to have a royal duke/duchess, so it is not fair to give it to someone who will one day face the risk of having it being taken away simply because you are too far down in the family hierarchy….

The swedish act of succession will likely be updated in the next reign…. Wether that means Alexander, Gabriel, Julian. Ines, Leonore, Nicolas and Adrienne will loose their place is an open question i think, but their children will definitely not be a part of the line of succession…

 

[pkl]

I have not read the discussion, but, I can not see a problem if Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia's children for example just became mr or mrs Bernadotte. Why build a "new" nobility. It is stupid in 2025.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

I have not read the discussion, but, I can not see a problem if Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia's children for example just became mr or mrs Bernadotte. Why build a "new" nobility. It is stupid in 2025.

I guess one can read it either way…. Some will say the whole idea with royalty in 2025 is stupid and outdated as well…

Being Mr and Mrs Bernadotte is no problem at all as it is a normal name, just like Mr Andersson or Mrs Johansson…

But if you are to be included in the line of succession, i still think most people expects that to come with certain priviligies that ”us normal people” don’t have

 

[pkl]

But if you are to be included in the line of succession, i still think most people expects that to come with certain priviligies that ”us normal people” don’t have

I understand what you mean. But it is not easy... I just don't believe in all grandchildren having their own titles etc. But how much "slimmed down" a royal family can be, is not easy to answer

 

[meeralakshmi]

True, but when their removal from the Royal House was announced by the Royal Court, the Marshal of the Realm also announced that their partners and children would not share their titles.

Kungens beslut - Prinsbarnen kommer inte längre tillhöra kungahuset

Prins Alexander, prins Gabriel, prinsessan Leonore, prins Nicolas och prinsessan Adrienne är fortsatt medlemmar av Den kungliga familjen, och kommer även fortsatt att bära de titlar de tilldelats av kungen.​

​

Deras titlar kommer dock inte att föras vidare till deras framtida partners och barn.​

Naturally, the intention is not legally binding, but the Marshal also confirmed that the change had been discussed within the family, so Crown Princess Victoria was most likely in agreement. But it is possible that the issue may be viewed differently in 20-30 years when the grandchildren are born.




Well, it would be less strange for a child of a duke/duchess to likewise be a duke/duchess than for the child to have a ducal title but not the parent.

I personally prefer that all the grandchildren of the monarch are princes and princesses but only the great-grandchildren through the heir are princes/princesses (basically the UK system). It’s fine that CP and Madeleine’s grandkids will be untitled but I think it’s too far that their kids’ spouses won’t be titled. That likely means that Oscar’s kids will be untitled which I don’t think is fair.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Oh ok thanks.
I read on the thread about the new princess that the wives and children of the current kings grandsons will not receive any titles.

Yes, you are exactly right. The Marshal of the Realm stated at the 2019 press conference that the princely and ducal titles would not be shared with the demoted children's future "partners" or children. (I do not have time to search for the transcription right now, but it was published on the websites of Swedish-language newspapers such as Expressen and Aftonbladet, for example.) A press conference is not legally binding, but it is notable that the King chose to have his Marshal announce these future plans when he could just as well have postponed the decision for many years until one of the grandchildren actually married or had children.

I’m afraid that title is in the hands of the Grand Duke of Luxembourg.. And i heard that Luxembourg had stopped ennoble foreign citizens so it doesn’t sound like that’s a possibility anymore…

The 2023 constitutional reform in Luxembourg restricted the Grand Duke's power to ennoble to members of the grand-ducal family. The Luxembourg constitution does not define "grand-ducal family", though, so I suppose if the Grand Duke wished to grant titles of nobility to foreign royals, he could try decreeing them to be members of the Luxembourg grand-ducal family. Are the Bernadottes descended from the Luxembourg grand dukes?

Well as that only came about when HM Queen Margrethe decided to strip her younger son HRH Prince Joachim's children of the titles they had carried since birth in September 2022 I hardly think it can be termed a model . The decision of the King to style HRH Princess Madeleine's children as [initially] both HRH and Princess / Prince of Sweden was far more radical .

The original decision of the King wasn't radical, merely the standing tradition for grandchildren in the line of succession to the throne to bear full royal titles until such time as they lost the right of succession (e.g. Count Lennart Bernadotte of Wisborg, who was born H.R.H. Prince Lennart), even if they were not children of the direct heir. Perhaps some would consider the decision to grant females and their descendants equal rights to the throne, thus putting Princess Madeleine's children on the same footing as Prince Carl Philip's children, to be "radical", but that decision was a fait accompli by parliament in the 1970s (which the King partially opposed).