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  #401  
Old 09-26-2013, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Since when does needing hip replacement surgery mean he cannot effectively perform his duties as monarch?
Hip replacement surgery alone might not be, but we are talking about 6 surgeries on the hip alone the last 3 years (likely more to come), many months of rehab and missing functions.
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  #402  
Old 09-26-2013, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Because its not the idea of a monarchy? Then why not elect the best person for the job (that is ceremonial only anyway) who is on top of his/her ability every four or five years.
What's the idea of monarchy ? To be treated like a god, thanked to stay alive ? Monarchy is to provide service, part of the service is representation in various events/functions. Time has passed for the Monarchy to remain in the palace or bed, not in Spain.
On the other hand, many people like Felipe's personal qualities, people saw the difference between Felipe and the politicians in Argentina this time.
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  #403  
Old 09-26-2013, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
Gracie, I have already clearly replied for all your questions in post#343.
OK once again.. The King has not committed any crime.
A member of his family did.
But why didnt the judiciary punish her?
You say The King "influenced"..
Well..is there a clause in Spanish constitution that The King's influence has to be considered before trying a member of The RF?
Did the King threaten of a countercoup or something if his daughter is tried?
Does the "evidence" you are claiming supports any of the above? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO........
So, basically, the fault is NOT WITH THE KING, but the Spanish legal/juducial/administrative system..
WHY EXACTLY SHOULD THEY FALL FOR THE KING'S INFLUENCE?
They should entertain neither fear nor favour.. Isnt it the basic principle of judiciary?
And people simply want to King to call the police and say.. My SIL is a fraudster, come and arrest him..
No monarch..no human being will do so..
Do you think QEII never really knew of Andrew's shady deals and associations well before they actually surfaced? And upon that she immediately incensed him with GCVO the moment charges started coming in..
I am not blaming them..It is the basic parental protective instinct..
It is for the judiciary to work for justice..
If they fail in that..you cannot compensate for it by making the King abdicate..



FYI Queen Julian'a husband..husband I repeat..not an in-law..was involved in Lockheed Scandal..and even got away with all that perfectly..no one demanded her abdication for keeping quiet inspite of knowing..or trying to shield him later..

I stand by my observations that male monarchs are treated unfairly compared to female monarchs, when it comes to judging them by the wrong-doings of their family members..
ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENCE TO ANY MONARCHS I RESPECT THEM ALL EQUALLY..
And from these two examples, you have concluded that the difference in treatment comes down to the gender of the monarchs, simply because one was a man and one was a woman? Without considering the difference in cultures, economic circumstances, the role of the press, etc? Just because one was a man and one was a woman, in two completely different countries, two completely different times, it's reverse gender discrimination?

While I am unfamiliar with Queen Juliana's husband, can you tell me if Queen Juliana herself was involved in any way? Quite the opposite of JC.

As for JC's role in the Urdangarin affairs, I do believe you are overlooking his moral obligations to his people. If you do not believe he did not have a hand in covering things up, smoothing things over and getting Inaki to D.C. and then Cristina to Geneva as a golden parachute (a bit of an accessory after the fact, if you ask me), if you do not believe that he ultimately had a moral if not legal role, as monarch, of revealing the issues with Noos, of revealing the fact that members of the royal family stole millions from the public purse, a very needy public purse, if you do believe he is so unconnected that he had no influence on the justice system's treatment of Cristina (which also has criminal implications in many countries) , well then I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here.

You really do believe that JC was an innocent bystander in that entire affair, who can look himself in the mirror and say that he did nothing wrong? Again, I believe we have completely divergent opinions here.
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  #404  
Old 09-26-2013, 05:13 PM
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King Juan Carlos “in good spirits” after latest hip surgery


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  #405  
Old 09-26-2013, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
Hip replacement surgery alone might not be, but we are talking about 6 surgeries on the hip alone the last 3 years (likely more to come), many months of rehab and missing functions.
None of what you have said means he will not recover or be unable to perform the basic functions of a monarch. Being ill, requiring surgery etc are not reasons to put people out to pasture or lock them away in a nursing home or that their mind is impaired and that they are unable to work.
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  #406  
Old 09-26-2013, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
I dont agree and it only shows that the system doesnt fit into the 21st century any longer. If you start removing monarchs for subjective feelings (in this case, I guess not everybody agrees), you can as well have a republic. Why give such a perogative to a specific family where naturally not all members or generations will be qualified for what they are supposed to do. But that's another discussion I guess.
I agree with this sentiment.

He should stay put. It is the only way to make the monarchy have staying power. The country isn't baying for his blood, for heaven's sake.

The country is in a real (pardon the pun) mess economically (royal issues don't even register in comparison). The government are looking for all sorts of distractions (Gibraltar to name but 1) but NOT the abdication of the King. This says to me that they realise that at grass roots there is no support for it.
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  #407  
Old 09-26-2013, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
None of what you have said means he will not recover or be unable to perform the basic functions of a monarch. Being ill, requiring surgery etc are not reasons to put people out to pasture or lock them away in a nursing home or that their mind is impaired and that they are unable to work.
The last 5 hip operations didn't work, thus it allows people to have doubt on this one and the next one in 2 months, it can't go on forever like one operation followed by another one for the future. He will miss the national day celebration, he won't be able to attend the Latin America Summit, Felipe is not allowed to go since he isn't the Head of State. It doesn't look good on the monarchy. Like I said previously, time has passed for a monarchy to stay in the Palace or bed, they need to go out to represent.
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  #408  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:01 PM
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He looks like hell. Picture from the Dutch visit, he is frail and looking quite elderly. Why I do not know. I am near his age. My husband is older. We can do much more. My husband has a new hip, well a while ago and a new 3 years ago. He doesn't look old or frail There is a problem. Monarchy has its limitations, people in useless positions, who cut ribbons and shake hands can no longer do that, they should be, retired somewhere quietly. JC has out stayed his time.
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  #409  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
He looks like hell. Picture from the Dutch visit, he is frail and looking quite elderly. Why I do not know. I am near his age. My husband is older. We can do much more. My husband has a new hip, well a while ago and a new 3 years ago. He doesn't look old or frail There is a problem. Monarchy has its limitations, people in useless positions, who cut ribbons and shake hands can no longer do that, they should be, retired somewhere quietly. JC has out stayed his time.
He looks like that because he is probably in constant pain. Pain is the most wearing, tiring thing there is. And there is also the stress of knowing another operation was necessary and therefore more pain. He's got the guts to try and get it fixed. Good for him. Surgery (and hips) and individual and therefore how another person responds is only a guide.

I think that physical frailty does not mean you give up. Using your example, how would you and your husband have felt if someone said-"you're old, need a new hip, give up!" ?

And you have been on the forums long enough to know that there is more to being a monarch than cutting ribbons and shaking hands.
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  #410  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:19 PM
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Not a great deal more. He doesn't run the nation. He can come and go. Filipe would give a fresh look and interest to the nation, if you want to keep a monarchy. Pain is a terrible thing, you are right. But after so many operations on the same site, it begins to tell a story. I have worked surgeries for many years, there is a real problem. Hips are one of the best recoveries there are.
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  #411  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:37 PM
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He could reign from a wheelchair if necessary. Everyday people with his stated health continue to work, hobbies, meet people, shop etc etc and generally it is agreed that is right. Why should he stop? Disability does not automatically stop people doing their job. In the UK, we had a minister of state who was blind - all things are possible.

I hope he keeps going.
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  #412  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Monarchy has its limitations, people in useless positions, who cut ribbons and shake hands can no longer do that, they should be, retired somewhere quietly. JC has out stayed his time.
Off topic, but seems you have a need to be constantly reminded that a Constitutional Monarchy is not just waves and ribbon cuttings.

From the official website of the Spanish Monarchy (http://www.casareal.es/EN/corona/Pag...el-jefe.aspx):

FUNCTIONS OF THE HEAD OF STATE

Pursuant to the Constitution, the King is a symbol of the unity of the State, and as such, it is incumbent upon him to participate in important State acts:

- Sanctioning and promulgating the laws (Article 62 a).
- Issuing the decrees approved in the Council of Ministers (Article 62 f).

- Appointing the President and the other Members of the Government (Articles 99.3 and 100).
- Appointing the President and the Members of the Constitutional Court (Articles 159 and 160).

- Appointing the President of the Supreme Court (Article 123.2).

- Appointing the President of the Executive Councils of the Autonomous Communities (Article 152.1).

It is also incumbent upon the King to:

- Confer civil and military positions, as well as award honours and distinctions (Article 62 f).

- Exercise supreme command of the Armed Forces (Article 62 h).

- Exercise the right of clemency (Article 62 i).

- Exercise the High Patronage of the Royal Academies (Article 62 j).
Sinopsis del Artículo 62. Congreso de los Diputados
As a symbol of the permanence of the State, the Crown of Spain is hereditary (Article 57).

The King arbitrates and moderates the regular functioning of the institutions, and as such, it is incumbent upon him to:

- Summon and dissolve the Cortes and to call for elections (Article 62 b).

- Call for a referendum (Article 62 c).

- Propose a candidate for President of the Government (Article 62 d).

- Be informed of the affairs of State and, for this purpose, preside over the meetings of the Council of Ministers (Article 62 g).


The King is the highest representative of the Spanish State in international relations, and as such, it is incumbent upon him to:

- Accredit ambassadors and other diplomatic representatives, express the State’s assent to international commitments through treaties, and declare war and make peace (Article 63).

Pursuant to the provisions of the corresponding laws, it is incumbent upon the King to appoint the following authorities:

- President of the Court of Auditors (Article 29 of Organic Law 2/1982, of 12 May, on the Court of Auditors).

- Public Prosecutor General (Article 29.1 of Act 50/1981, of 30 December, regulating the Organic Statute of the Public Prosecution Service).

- Governor of the Bank of Spain (Article 24.1 of Act 13/1994, of 1 June, on the Autonomy of the Bank of Spain).

The following take an oath or make a promise before the King:

- President and Members of the Government.

- Members of the Constitutional Court (Article 21 of Organic Law 2/1979, of 3 October, on the Constitutional Court).

- President and Members of the General Council of the Judiciary (Articles 123.4 and 115 of Organic Law 6/1985, of 1 July, on the Judiciary).

- President of the Court of Auditors (Article 21.6 of Act 7/1988, of 5 April, on the Functioning of the Court of Auditors).

- Public Prosecutor General (Article 29.3 of Act 50/1981, of 30 December, regulating the Organic Statute of the Public Prosecution Service.

- Governor of the Bank of Spain.
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  #413  
Old 09-26-2013, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
The last 5 hip operations didn't work, thus it allows people to have doubt on this one and the next one in 2 months, it can't go on forever like one operation followed by another one for the future. He will miss the national day celebration, he won't be able to attend the Latin America Summit, Felipe is not allowed to go since he isn't the Head of State. It doesn't look good on the monarchy. Like I said previously, time has passed for a monarchy to stay in the Palace or bed, they need to go out to represent.
He could have both legs amputated and be in a wheelchair and still be able to function perfectly well as monarch.

Indeed in Canada 2 of the monarchs representatives in the provinces were appointed at least in part because they were wheelchair bound to demonstrate that a handicap did not mean one could not still lead an active life and contribute to society.
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  #414  
Old 09-26-2013, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
While I am unfamiliar with Queen Juliana's husband, can you tell me if Queen Juliana herself was involved in any way? Quite the opposite of JC.

As for JC's role in the Urdangarin affairs, I do believe you are overlooking his moral obligations to his people. If you do not believe he did not have a hand in covering things up, smoothing things over and getting Inaki to D.C. and then Cristina to Geneva as a golden parachute (a bit of an accessory after the fact, if you ask me), if you do not believe that he ultimately had a moral if not legal role, as monarch, of revealing the issues with Noos, of revealing the fact that members of the royal family stole millions from the public purse, a very needy public purse, if you do believe he is so unconnected that he had no influence on the justice system's treatment of Cristina (which also has criminal implications in many countries) , well then I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here.

You really do believe that JC was an innocent bystander in that entire affair, who can look himself in the mirror and say that he did nothing wrong? Again, I believe we have completely divergent opinions here.

Yes..my point of bias is sooooo clear here..
You believe the King knows everything about Noos scandal, and at the same time you believe Queen Juliana doesnt know anything about Lockheed scandal..IT IS JUST YOUR BELIEF..In both cases..

If one monarch is supposed to know everything that goes in the lives of their children and their spouses, and is automatically presumed to have shielded them from justice...The how come another monarch is so conveniently presumed to be in dark and innocent about her own and only husband's dealings, she is an innocent bystander and she doesnt have any moral obligations towards her people..This is the heights of double standards..Atleast double standards..if you arent ready to call it revers sex discrimination..

Anyways, since you have already stated that we are not going to agree on this, lets leave it here..as just another discussion of divergent opinions..
Moreover, for those whole didnt follow this discussion from start, may mistake my posts for some badmouthing other monarchs..

Quote:
Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
Hip replacement surgery alone might not be, but we are talking about 6 surgeries on the hip alone the last 3 years (likely more to come), many months of rehab and missing functions.
Please Please..You people have been mixing up every possible reason on earth to demand the King's abdication..
Just go through the last few pages..It goes on like this..
First you (those seeking abdication) say the King is so old he has to abdicate..
Then we (those opposing demands of abdication) say age is not an issue..
Then you say no health is very bad he cannot reign
Then we say one need not be extremely fit to reign..
Then you say people are tired of his corruption scandals
Then we point out The King has no corruption charges on him
Then you say his daughter is involved and he has shielded them so he is equally culpable
Then you go to say entire system in Spain runs on The Kin's whims and fancies, and stop short of calling Spain an autocratic state (what else do you call something where evrything and everyone goes out of their way to follow the King's orders)..
Then again you say the corruption scandal is one thing, the King's hunting trip is the main cause of public anger
Then you bring in the King's mistress..
Aget this what..You will say the King's grandson had gun in his hand, so he should abdicate..
And just you're saying one surgery is OK, bot he had six surgeries so he has to abdicate..Is there a cut-off? that a monarch has to abdicate the moment he goes into the OR for the sixth time?

Havent you all noticed by now that you dont have even one single solid ground to demand The King's abdication..
Just bragging about everything that goes wrong in his family/friend's circle/country...
And the worse thing is you people speak as if The King is the cause of all maladies of Spain, and his abdication is a magic potion to treat them all in one single shot..
You dont realise that in the current situation, there is only economic crisis, but the abdication may plunge the nation into a deeeeep political crisis with far more worse outcomes...
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  #415  
Old 09-27-2013, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Not a great deal more. He doesn't run the nation. He can come and go. Filipe would give a fresh look and interest to the nation, if you want to keep a monarchy. Pain is a terrible thing, you are right. But after so many operations on the same site, it begins to tell a story. I have worked surgeries for many years, there is a real problem. Hips are one of the best recoveries there are.
Two things:

If you believe that JC doesn't run the nation, then I would urge you to read more about his influence in the Spanish government.

Secondly, a hip replacement being the easiest recovery? Hardly. The risk of infection and hip dislocation is always there. Especially the older you get.

The fact is, the chances of his abdicating are exceedingly small, right? The Spanish monarchy doesn't have a legacy of abdications, and we all know what happened the last time the monarch "left" unexpectedly.
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  #416  
Old 09-27-2013, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
The last 5 hip operations didn't work, thus it allows people to have doubt on this one and the next one in 2 months, it can't go on forever like one operation followed by another one for the future. He will miss the national day celebration, he won't be able to attend the Latin America Summit, Felipe is not allowed to go since he isn't the Head of State. It doesn't look good on the monarchy. Like I said previously, time has passed for a monarchy to stay in the Palace or bed, they need to go out to represent.
King Harald of Norway had several bouts of bad health during which time Prince Haakon served as regent. For example, when Harald had cancer treatment, Prince Haakon was regent from November 2003 until April 2004. It's too bad that Spain doesn't allow the same thing. In my opinion, Juan Carlos has not taken enough time to recover from his surgeries. His sister has said that bad joints run in their family. Was that the reason that their mother was wheelchair bound?
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  #417  
Old 09-27-2013, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
He could have both legs amputated and be in a wheelchair and still be able to function perfectly well as monarch.

Indeed in Canada 2 of the monarchs representatives in the provinces were appointed at least in part because they were wheelchair bound to demonstrate that a handicap did not mean one could not still lead an active life and contribute to society.
Don't think you can compare JC to some 'young' 'healthy' men in a wheelchair. Had JC sat on the wheelchair, all those surgeries would have been avoided (doubt it) ? With the lifestyle he led all these years and bad genes in the family, his whole body is falling apart, if not hip, it would be knees, disk, lung, who knows what is next.
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  #418  
Old 09-27-2013, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Lindy View Post
King Harald of Norway had several bouts of bad health during which time Prince Haakon served as regent. For example, when Harald had cancer treatment, Prince Haakon was regent from November 2003 until April 2004. It's too bad that Spain doesn't allow the same thing. In my opinion, Juan Carlos has not taken enough time to recover from his surgeries. His sister has said that bad joints run in their family. Was that the reason that their mother was wheelchair bound?
She felt, broken her hip. Since then she was wheelchair bound. I heard she had alzheimer too.
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  #419  
Old 09-27-2013, 05:29 AM
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Infanta Elena visited his father this mmorning

http://images.lainformacion.com/cms/...=lainformacion
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  #420  
Old 09-27-2013, 06:00 AM
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Why a a hat ? smiling , great car easy life all seems to go well !
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