Bowing and Curtseying

[Prince of Chota]

1) The sovereign is not a commoner.
2) Peers are not commoners.
3) The Prince of Wales is not a commoner.
4) All other British princes and princesses hold that title as a courtesy, similarly to the younger children of certain peers.

[Next Star]

A commoner is a person who does not hold a royal or noble title.
Anyone that holds a title is not a commoner they are royal or noble.

[shb007]

this may not be correct but i heard that primeminister disrale refused to bow to Queen Victoria on the fact that he did not wish to bow before a woman

ps it might not be correct

[PrinceOfCanada]

I very, very strongly suspect that isn't correct. Also, Disraeli.

[shb007]

i did say i was not sure but thanks for clarifying

[Menarue]

A Serene Highness does not get a curtsey. A Royal Highness does but it is only out of courtesy. If you don´t want to be courteous then don´t. A queen does not bow to a Queen. I remember an occasion when someone had recently become a Queen and went to curtsey to a HRH she had known all her life and was so accustomed to it that she forgot and they almost cracked knees. There was quite a bit of giggling about that later.

Menarue

[Madame Royale]

Diana, Princess of Wales and I believe an Asian consort..possibly the Queen of Malaysia but I can't be certain.

[Menarue]

The incident I was referring to was between Queen Fabiola and a Spanish Infanta.

Menarue

[Madame Royale]

I've never heard of that before. Interesting. Which Infanta?

[Menarue]

Actually I heard this from the "horse´s mouth" so I would rather not say which Infanta. When I said it was giggled about it was a Royal giggle among family so it wouldn´t have been public knowledge but funny.

Menarue

[Madame Royale]

Rather not say? Well, you went as far as to name HM Queen Fabiola did you not? And that would mean this Infanta to be in her latter years, considering Baudouin succeeded to the Belgian throne in 1960. So I'd suspect one of Don Juan Carlos' sisters, but I'm certainly not one to press so that's fine.

Interesting, indeed.

[Menarue]

Exactly. A lovely woman Queen Fabiola and as she was Spanish she knew the Spanish royal family well and habit won over, she curtseyed and so did the Infanta. Good investigative faculties.

Menarue

[PrincessofEurope]

http://legacyeditorial.gettyimages.c...81063746&cdi=0 curtsey to Letizia

Getty Images - Unsupported browser detected Letizia curtsey to Rania

[Duchess]

Originally Posted by politikgirl

Very well done on Natalie's part!

I wonder what people here think of Madame Carla Sarkozy's curtsey for HM The Queen during the UK visit, given the above discussion about protocol for wives of head of states.

You can see the curtsey at this link:

Mme. Sarkozy seems very classy and the French people should be proud of her.

[Duchess]

Originally Posted by andrew

A very nice gesture from Natalie Portman!

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...e-portman1.jpg

it is isn't it! i'm impressed that someone as young as ms. portman would make the gesture.

[Prince of Chota]

Originally Posted by leonardinha

Well, in Italy and in Austria titles are forbidden as well, but it is not a faux pas to curtsey/bow to royalty.

Actually, Austria's position on titles is more strict than that of the United States. It is illegal to use a title in Austria, or even to use an adelspredikat ("von" or "de").

In the United States, it is forbidden for the government to grant titles of nobility, and it is expected that noblemen relinquish their titles in order to become American citizens. However, Americans are allowed to inherit titles without losing citizenship.

As for bowing/curtseying, it is not a faux pas for an American. It is considered polite to show knowledge of protocol, both foreign and domestic. The constitution has nothing to do with it.

[NotAPretender]

Originally Posted by KingJosh

First of all I think it's fine that Mrs. Annenberg curtsied to His Royal Highness as a sign of respect. That was what she was used to and so thats what she did.

Originally Posted by KingJosh

Second No matter where in the world they are U.S. or not Her Majesty is still Her Majesty the Queen, just as Prince Charles and his wife are still Their Royal Highnesses the Prince and Princess of Wales and should still be treated as such and if Bowing/curtsing is how to show them respect then thats what should be done, regardless of what country they are in. For example when i'm in uniform in the United States and a higher ranking officer from another country is walking past I still salute him becuase regardless of country he is still a higher rank then me, and it's the same with Royalty. The biggest problem in America is that most of us have lost our manners.

On US soil, she is Her Majesty the Queen - but she is not sovereign! She does not rule. Good heavens. And if she does not rule here, then certainly her son and his current-day wife do not merit a courtsey or bow here. Fortunately, on other travels to the US with either of his wives, Charles received appropriate courtesies from knowledgable sources.

The point - and it cannot seem to be overemphasized - is that manners are not aligned to protocol, and courtesy is akin to but not synonymous with either. Attempting to turn protocol into a discussion of "manners" is disingenous, at best. At certain tables in this world, belching is considered "good manners." If someone here would like to express their good manners at a royal banquet by belching, please raise your hand.

And finally, the genuine upshot of my story was that Mrs. Annenberg, of all people, should have been versed and rehearsed within an inch of her life on this. There is no stricter protocol than the Court of St. James; of all people, she should have known better. Even Charles was embarassed, even if she didn't have the presence of mind to be so. Especially the extremely obsequious nature of her physical demeanor. Truly cringe-worthy.

[wbenson]

Army Regulation 600-25 Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy
Chapter 1-5 Paragraph e:
e. It is customary to salute officers of friendly foreign nations when recognized as such.

[Nitefeatherz]

I have to say (as an American,) I feel that it's a matter of following the respect and courtesy of the country you're in. I wouldn't expect to have to bow to anyone in the United States simply because that isn't the way we do things. If I had to go to another country where such things are the norm, I would probably make more of an effort to follow their customs.

I can't say absolutely that I would curtsy however, simply because I have never had to do it and never learned. I would rather show respect in another way and avoid embarrassing myself and the royal at hand (who I think would probably understand) by botching a curtsy. (On the other hand, if I knew I was going to meet royalty, hehe, I would probably make the effort BEFOREHAND to learn how to curtsy and other traditions/protocols as well.)

If they don't understand, well, in my experience I probably wouldn't respect that person either. Not every situation is going to go as you want it and be ideal and you have to take some gestures of respect as they are intended and not as they are enacted traditionally.

There's a funny story I read while I was taking a graduate course on Saints and Heretics. A Jewish woman was spending too much time with her Rabbi in an attempt to learn as much about the Torah as she could. Her husband however was very unhappy about all the time she was spending away from home regardless of the fact that she was observing her faith, well, faithfully.

The husband vowed that he wouldn't accept his wife back until she had spit in the rabbi's face. The wife of course was horrified at the idea. The rabbi's job (as rabbi) was to somehow cause the reconciliation of the couple without the husband breaking his vow.

The rabbi one day then set up a scene where he pretended to have something in his eye. He then asked the woman to make his eye feel better by spitting in it. With some reluctance and persuasion, the woman did so and, while the rabbi seemed to have been put in an embarrassing situation by having someone spit in his face, his job was done and he did a good deed by letting her spit in his face, as the husband took his wife back since his vow was fulfilled.

The idea being, as long as its a gesture of respect, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Regardless of tradition, as long as the person isn't insulting you or meaning to show you disrespect by not bowing or curtsying, the manner of showing that respect shouldn't be so concrete that someone becomes insulted by not being shown that respect the same way EVERY single time.

[NotAPretender]

Nitefeatherz, what a lovely story!