Death of Queen Elizabeth II - Pre-Funeral Discussion and Reception

[JessRulz]

Death of Queen Elizabeth II - Pre-Funeral Discussion

Please use this thread as an unofficial discussion thread for her state funeral on Monday September 19th.

The morning of the funeral, this thread will close and the formal Funeral thread will open.

 

[AC21091968]

Politico has obtained a document on the guidance and procedures in Her Majesty The Queen's funeral. World leaders have been told that they cannot use their own states car to attend at Westminster Abbey. Instead they will be bussed in en masse. The document has also revealed that only the head of states and their spouses/partners for each country have been invited.

No private jets, no helicopters, and a bus to Westminster Abbey: VIP guidance for queen’s funeral revealed
Documents obtained by POLITICO reveal strict protocol rules for foreign dignitaries.
https://www.politico.eu/article/que...-plus-one-to-attend-queen-elizabeths-funeral/

 

[Somebody]

Politico has obtained a document on the guidance and procedures in Her Majesty The Queen's funeral. World leaders have been told that they cannot use their own states car to attend at Westminster Abbey. Instead they will be bussed in en masse. The document has also revealed that only the head of states and their spouses/partners for each country have been invited.

No private jets, no helicopters, and a bus to Westminster Abbey: VIP guidance for queen’s funeral revealed
Documents obtained by POLITICO reveal strict protocol rules for foreign dignitaries.
https://www.politico.eu/article/que...-plus-one-to-attend-queen-elizabeths-funeral/

Will they truly exclude princess Beatrix, king Albert, queen Paola, king Juan Carlos (who I don't expect to attend) and queen Sophia (and the emeritus emperor and empress of Japan - although I don't think their health allows them to travel to London for the funeral) - while they were her contemporaries and fellow monarchs for many years?

Let's hope they will make an exception for this very tiny group of fellow royals.

And I would hope and expect they will also include some other royals that might not be heads of state but had a close relationship with her - such as crown prince Alexander of Serbia as her godchild and queen Anne Marie of Greece (and/or crown prince Pavlos and crown princess Marie Chantal) representing the Greek royal family - that her husband was born in. Next to of course, Philip's family.

 

[Durham]

I would think an exception would be made for royal guests.

 

[Katymcwaity]

I guess those who were classed as friends will be invited.Maybe there is an actual list? It wouldn’t be unreasonable for one to be complied especially with the rest of the funeral being so planned.

 

[FigTree]

Will they truly exclude princess Beatrix, king Albert, queen Paola, king Juan Carlos (who I don't expect to attend) and queen Sophia (and the emeritus emperor and empress of Japan - although I don't think their health allows them to travel to London for the funeral) - while they were her contemporaries and fellow monarchs for many years?

Let's hope they will make an exception for this very tiny group of fellow royals.

And I would hope and expect they will also include some other royals that might not be heads of state but had a close relationship with her - such as crown prince Alexander of Serbia as her godchild and queen Anne Marie of Greece (and/or crown prince Pavlos and crown princess Marie Chantal) representing the Greek royal family - that her husband was born in. Next to of course, Philip's family.

They are all family friends and relatives anyway. I wouldn’t worry.

 

[Durham]

Politico has obtained a document on the guidance and procedures in Her Majesty The Queen's funeral. World leaders have been told that they cannot use their own states car to attend at Westminster Abbey. Instead they will be bussed in en masse. The document has also revealed that only the head of states and their spouses/partners for each country have been invited.

No private jets, no helicopters, and a bus to Westminster Abbey: VIP guidance for queen’s funeral revealed
Documents obtained by POLITICO reveal strict protocol rules for foreign dignitaries.
https://www.politico.eu/article/que...-plus-one-to-attend-queen-elizabeths-funeral/

The US President is not going to travel on a bus! Apart from the fact that he is the most powerful human on the planet & requires huge levels of security starting with his transport, it's also bloody undignified.

All sounds badly thought out to me. Republican heads of state can congregate at BP then be transported by limousines to the abbey along Birdcage Walk.

Royal guests & Governors General can go by carriage along The Mall.

 

[Saragli]

I'm not so sure an exception will be made, as this is a state funeral, so I fully expect just head of states with a plus one. However, for the future memorial service, I expect a plethora of royals. But we will see.

 

[FigTree]

The US President is not going to travel on a bus! Apart from the fact that he is the most powerful human on the planet & requires huge levels of security starting with his transport, it's also bloody undignified.

All sounds badly thought out to me. Heads of state can congregate at BP then be transported by limousines to the abbey.

Royal guest can go by carriage.

Granted I as haven’t seen a state funeral but I would imagine the family will go by car. They will bus the other royals in though.

I don’t think it matters how they get here. The whole place will be on lockdown anyway…it’s not like it will be a security issue.

 

[Durham]

Granted I as haven’t seen a state funeral but I would imagine the family will go by car. They will bus the other royals in though.

I don’t think it matters how they get here. The whole place will be on lockdown anyway…it’s not like it will be a security issue.

I will be genuinely surprised if the US President attends under these arrangements. US Presidential motorcades are huge.

 

[FigTree]

I'm not so sure an exception will be made, as this is a state funeral, so I fully expect just head of states with a plus one. However, for the future memorial service, I expect a plethora of royals. But we will see.

I doubt there will be a memorial service. They are generally for people who had private funerals ala the Duke of Edinburgh.

 

[tommy100]

I think European Royal Houses will be the exception - many are family and friends. If they have a whole host of heads of state wanting to come it would get out of hand if, for example, the president of France wants to bring 5 people, the President of Germany 6 etc. I suspect this is the protocol that will be used for most Heads of State...slightly different for European Royal Families and key Heads of State - I remember all Heads of State bar the Queen and President of USA riding busses for one of the VE Day Celebrations.

It is better to set out rules now and negotiate back on them rather than allow everyone to do as they please.

 

[Mbruno]

Will they truly exclude princess Beatrix, king Albert, queen Paola, king Juan Carlos (who I don't expect to attend) and queen Sophia (and the emeritus emperor and empress of Japan - although I don't think their health allows them to travel to London for the funeral) - while they were her contemporaries and fellow monarchs for many years?

I am afraid they will. It is a state funeral, so invitations will be sent only to the Heads of State and their consorts, who will most likely all attend in this case.

As far as the rules leaked by Politico are concerned, obviously they cannot apply to the President of the United States. He is not allowed by the Secret Service to not use his own secure car or helicopter. And he is not allowed to fly into London on a commercial flight.

Actually many other heads of state (Macron?) would face similar constraints, I think. And although European monarchs have been bused before, they normally don't use commercial flights either. I don't find the article very reliable in this sense. The part about no room for more than one representative from each country seems plausible though.

 

[tommy100]

Thinking about it - W&C's wedding was two per state in regards to European Heads of State - we saw some send the Sovereign and consort or heir and spouse, none both.

 

[Nico]

Politico has obtained a document on the guidance and procedures in Her Majesty The Queen's funeral. World leaders have been told that they cannot use their own states car to attend at Westminster Abbey. Instead they will be bussed in en masse. The document has also revealed that only the head of states and their spouses/partners for each country have been invited.

No private jets, no helicopters, and a bus to Westminster Abbey: VIP guidance for queen’s funeral revealed
Documents obtained by POLITICO reveal strict protocol rules for foreign dignitaries.
https://www.politico.eu/article/que...-plus-one-to-attend-queen-elizabeths-funeral/

Sounds like a hot mess and, knowing the current international situation, a real security hazard. Can't imagine one second the US Secret services accepting that, among others.

 

[Blog Real]

Politico has obtained a document on the guidance and procedures in Her Majesty The Queen's funeral. World leaders have been told that they cannot use their own states car to attend at Westminster Abbey. Instead they will be bussed in en masse. The document has also revealed that only the head of states and their spouses/partners for each country have been invited.

No private jets, no helicopters, and a bus to Westminster Abbey: VIP guidance for queen’s funeral revealed
Documents obtained by POLITICO reveal strict protocol rules for foreign dignitaries.
https://www.politico.eu/article/que...-plus-one-to-attend-queen-elizabeths-funeral/

This looks confusing. For example, the President of the Republic of Portugal has no spouse and is apparently accompanied to the funeral by the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Will there be any problems?
If this is true, then only monarchs and their consorts will be present and republican heads of state (with their spouses, if any).
Unfortunately, the monarchs emeritus (Beatrix of Holland, Juan Carlos and Sofia of Spain and Albert and Paola of Belgium, in this situation, may be prevented from attending the funeral).

 

[Mbruno]

Are members of the Royal Family expected to walk behind the coffin at any point in the procession? By tradition in other royal funerals, other foreign monarchs and heads of state are also supposed to join the procession, but, I don't expect the POTUS for example to ever do that for obvious security reasons.

I imagine they have to "modernize" the protocols on how those funerals are conducted. We are not on the days of Queen Victoria, or even King George VI anymore.

 

[JR76]

Actually many other heads of state (Macron?) would face similar constraints, I think. And although European monarchs have been bused before, they normally don't use commercial flights either. I don't find the article very reliable in this sense. The part about no room for more than one representative from each country seems plausible though.

On the contrary, several European royals make a point to use commercial flights whenever possible.

Thinking about it - W&C's wedding was two per state in regards to European Heads of State - we saw some send the Sovereign and consort or heir and spouse, none both.

Felipe, Letizia and Sofia all came from Spain.

 

[Mbruno]

On the contrary, several European royals make a point to use commercial flights whenever possible.

Perhaps, but I have also seen them (for example Felipe and Letizia) use Air Force flights instead. See for example their departure for the state visit to Sweden.

See also at the video below of Willem-Alexander and Maxima arriving in Denmark. I may be mistaken, but it doesn't look like a commercial flight to me.

In any case, the British hosts cannot dictate how the foreign guests arrive in London, unless they refuse permission for their airplanes to land on UK soil. That sounds odd to me.

 

[Sunnystar]

You know, there's only so much space in Westminster Abbey, so I understand the restrictions placed on the number of people who can attend. It is only right and correct to restrict attendance of foreign heads of state to a plus one.

I expect that some exceptions will be made for certain foreign heads of state (like Biden, Trudeau, Macron, etc) where there are some very clear security concerns. But, also, there's a certain protocol for seating and having the heads of state arriving on buses will expedite them getting into their seats at the Abbey, etc.

Oh, and, yes, I do expect Biden to attend, regardless of whether he and Jill have to ride a bus part of the way or not. The UK is one of our most significant allies and this is a significant world event.

 

[Sister Morphine]

You know, there's only so much space in Westminster Abbey, so I understand the restrictions placed on the number of people who can attend. It is only right and correct to restrict attendance of foreign heads of state to a plus one.

I expect that some exceptions will be made for certain foreign heads of state (like Biden, Trudeau, Macron, etc) where there are some very clear security concerns. But, also, there's a certain protocol for seating and having the heads of state arriving on buses will expedite them getting into their seats at the Abbey, etc.

Oh, and, yes, I do expect Biden to attend, regardless of whether he and Jill have to ride a bus part of the way or not. The UK is one of our most significant allies and this is a significant world event.

Yes, unlike other, previous occupants of his position, Pres. Biden isn't going to insult the Royal Family by not going because he might have to ride a bus to the Abbey instead of a golden carriage. It's more important that the people who need to be there get there safely than the mode of transportation.

I wonder if the Obamas would also attend, or if the US invitation is restricted to the current president and his wife.

 

[lula]

Perhaps, but I have also seen them (for example Felipe and Letizia) use Air Force flights instead.

The King of Spain always travels on official planes for security reasons, even on his private trips. The rest of the family can travel on commercial flights.

Most Heads of State travel on official planes for security reasons, surely the United Kingdom will never allow King Charles to travel on a regular flight... asking others to do so is quite absurd. It is something they should have anticipated.

 

[Mbruno]

Yes, unlike other, previous occupants of his position, Pres. Biden isn't going to insult the Royal Family by not going because he might have to ride a bus to the Abbey instead of a golden carriage. It's more important that the people who need to be there get there safely than the mode of transportation.

I wonder if the Obamas would also attend, or if the US invitation is restricted to the current president and his wife.

President Obama didn't do the carriage ride with the Queen during his state visit to the UK for security reasons, which was an insult TBH. There is no way President Biden or the First Lady will ever ride a bus.

Anyway, I am pretty sure the Politico article is inaccurate in many respects.

The King of Spain always travels on official planes for security reasons, even on his private trips. The rest of the family can travel on commercial flights.

Most Heads of State travel on official planes for security reasons, surely the United Kingdom will never allow King Charles to travel on a regular flight... asking others to do so is quite absurd. It is something they should have anticipated.

I agree 100 %, which is why I think the information must be wrong.

 

[Blog Real]

Perhaps, but I have also seen them (for example Felipe and Letizia) use Air Force flights instead. See for example their departure for the state visit to Sweden.

See also at the video below of Willem-Alexander and Maxima arriving in Denmark. I may be mistaken, but it doesn't look like a commercial flight to me.

In any case, the British hosts cannot dictate how the foreign guests arrive in London, unless they refuse permission for their airplanes to land on UK soil. That sounds odd to me.

On official/and/or state visits, heads of state typically use Air Force flights. Of course, for security and logistical reasons. This article can only be wrong.

 

[A Tudor]

I wonder If there’s still a chance they would change the venue. St. Paul’s is much bigger and would ease the restrictions.

 

[tommy100]

I think we possibly are putting too much store into one newspapers supposed "leaked documents"
a) it may not be real b) it may not be up to date c) it may not apply to all invited guests d)it may not apply to all foreign royals and on and on. Let's just wait and see.

Hat tip to JR76, yes Felipe, Letizia and Sofia all came to W&Cs wedding from Spain but if I remember rightly they were the exception to the rule, certainly there weren't many or any countries with 4 representatives. I looked at the guests at the Queen Mother's funeral - the last big royal funeral (though it was a royal ceremonial funeral rather than a state funeral) and there were only two representatives for each Royal House - but that may just have been how things worked out. Let's just wait and see.

 

[Sunnystar]

Yes, unlike other, previous occupants of his position, Pres. Biden isn't going to insult the Royal Family by not going because he might have to ride a bus to the Abbey instead of a golden carriage. It's more important that the people who need to be there get there safely than the mode of transportation.

I wonder if the Obamas would also attend, or if the US invitation is restricted to the current president and his wife.

Honestly, no need to make thinly veiled jabs at former US Presidents. I'm quite positive, no matter how arrogant they are or whatever security concerns the Secret Service may have (see below regarding carriage rides), that any US President would attend the funeral of QEII, even if they did have to ride a bus for part of the journey.

President Obama didn't do the carriage ride with the Queen during his state visit to the UK for security reasons, which was an insult TBH. There is no way President Biden or the First Lady will ever ride a bus.

Anyway, I am pretty sure the Politico article is inaccurate in many respects.

I agree 100 %, which is way I think the information must be wrong.

There's a lot that is left unsaid in the Politico article, but it didn't say that private flights were banned - just that they couldn't fly into Heathrow and to use other London area airports (there are 3 others, I think). Worse case scenario, Air Force One will fly into RAF Welford, which is in Berkshire, about 50 miles west of London, and the Bidens will then be transported to London privately.

My guess is that certain countries are going to have special security arrangements already discussed and in place for this event and the guidance that says "don't contact the FCDO to make any requests" doesn't apply to the likes of those countries' heads of state.

 

[Mbruno]

There's a lot that is left unsaid in the Politico article, but it didn't say that private flights were banned - just that they couldn't fly into Heathrow and to use other London area airports (there are 3 others, I think). Worse case scenario, Air Force One will fly into RAF Welford, which is in Berkshire, about 50 miles west of London, and the Bidens will then be transported to London privately.

Fair point. That makes more sense to me. It is understandable that they wouldn't want to overwhelm the commercial airports. Although they could for example suspend or reduce regular commercial flights for the day.

Anyway, since this funeral has been planned for decades, I can't imagine they don't have those details figured out yet.

 

[tommy100]

Hmm yes the guardian is carrying parts of the leaked document - it is much less prescriptive than is being made out

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/11/foreign-dignitaries-buses-queen-funeral

E,g:

The guidance, first reported by Politico, says that international guests must keep their delegations as small as possible and that funeral invitations are limited ideally to the head of state and their spouse, without their family or staff.
The guidance adds: “The royal funeral unit would therefore be grateful if accompanying delegations can be kept as small as possible. This will also reduce disruption and transit time at airports. Where possible, overseas representatives should plan to arrive in the UK at least one day before the state funeral or the first event, which they are attending.”

It also says Heathrow will not be available for private flight arrangements or aircraft parking and says heads of state should use other London airports if they cannot fly commercially. It says the government will decline the use of helicopter transport because of the sheer volume of guests.


I read this as:
no President so and so you can't bring all your children and grandchildren or multiple wives.
You can use a private/military jet but don't expect to arrive at Heathrow and don't expect to be able to fly from Heathrow to your hotel (there really are few places to land helicopters in London tbh)
And most leaders will be expected to travel by coaches, most have done this in the past - the VE day events, the Danish birthday events etc.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I will be genuinely surprised if the US President attends under these arrangements. US Presidential motorcades are huge.

I am almost 100% sure Biden wouldn't mind being bussed in....this is a man who took public transportation from his home in Delaware to the U.S. Senate regularly for years.

But no. The U.S. Secret Service will not allow the president to attend under those conditions. And they have the final say.

The last time an American president was permitted to overrule the Secret Service over a personal security issue was when JFK did it on November 22 1963.