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  #1881  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:02 AM
MARG's Avatar
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No he doesn't get an automatic pass, but he doesn't get an automatic "guilty" either.

We still know no more than we did a decade ago. Should he be changed, convicted and sentenced I will be as irate and disgusted as anyone else.

Andrew was convicted and vilified in the court of public opinion and on the forums a decade ago. Forgive me if I fail the pearl clutching this time round. I'll pass on the pubic lynching and wait for a criminal court case.
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  #1882  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:29 AM
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All speculation but my two cents:

I think its unlikely Andrew had sex with anyone underage, or tbh sex with anyone at such a party/gathering. He is clearly stupid but I don't think he is that stupid. I would assume at the time that infamous pic was taken Andrew was (hopefully unaware) of Epstein's predilection for underage girls. In the 2000s Andrew apparently invited Esptein to Windsor, Sandringham and Balmoral as well as regular visits to his own house. Charles is said to have been unhappy with Andrew throwing the doors of the royal residences to Andrew's seedy friends.

He did meet Epstein (in 2011) even after his 2008 conviction for "procuring for prostitution a girl below age 18". That should have been an absolute flashing screeching alarm to never go near him again, to completely cut him self off from Epstein an build the strongest tallest wall to keep anything Epstein related away. What does Andrew do - goes off and meets him in a public park in NY. IMO once the 2008 conviction is out there enough is enough, any further interaction/link with Epstein is immoral at the very least.

Not only that but around 2010/11 Epstein apparently was asked by Andrew to help pay of some of Sarah's debts to prevent her from being declared bankrupt. Epstein paid her former PA £15,000. Because of course you would go and ask a convicted sex offender for money wouldn't you.

If Andrew was close enough to Epstein to visit him after his 2008 conviction they are obviously much closer than acquaintances. I know plenty of people, many I would even call friends, who after such a conviction I would have no issue never speaking to never mind see again.

I find it interesting that BP's statement on the scandal is "It is emphatically denied that the Duke of York had any form of sexual contact or relationship with Virginia Roberts. Any claim to the contrary is false and without foundation.” What a remarkably specific statement, so he didn't have sexual contact with Roberts, but did he with someone else? Why such a specific denial.

Even if Andrew didn't engage in sex with underage girls, I do think he has plenty to answer for and be ashamed of. I hope Philip did arrive early at Balmoral to chase Sarah away and give Andrew a right royal dressing down. I certainly think he is more likely to be tough on him than HM, Philip also perhaps has the benefit of being away from the royals more, staying at Wood Farm perhaps has helped him see this more from out point of view rather than that of "inside the bunker". I hope when Charles becomes King he kicks Andrew into shape, making it clear to follow the rules or accept the consequences.
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  #1883  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:37 AM
Zaira's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ista View Post
Unfortunately, this is the problem that victims of sexual assault always have, and why it is so risky to come forward at all. As women, or children, their word is very seldom enough to convince some people that they have been assaulted. A powerful man always has more credibility in some people's eyes than any number of women, and men who prey on women and children depend on that to get away with it.

I have no idea what Andrew's involvement with Epstein consisted of, but the fact that he's a member of the BRF doesn't automatically give him a pass, as far as I am concerned, and I am hoping that if he is culpable, he isn't protected from consequences just because he is a royal.

Edited to add:

Just so it is clear where I am coming from, a long time ago I volunteered at a sexual assault crisis center, and have also worked with children who have been sexually assaulted. A recurring theme is the lack of belief they encounter, the questioning of their motives, and the fact that many people seem to have a hard time accepting that the public face a predator shows is not the face that is shown to his victims. "But he seemed like such a nice guy!"
Agreed Ista. I know this first hand, and also from working with survivors of sexual violence myself as a volunteer. Andrew has been accused by two women now who were in their teens when they said the abuse happened. It doesn't matter if he has daughters, it doesn't matter if he treats his exes or the other women in his life well. It. Doesn't.Matter. None of these things make you less likely to be an abuser. Andrew was more than mere "acquaintances" with Epstein. They were close friends, as a good deal of the reporting has born out. And Andrew was both dumb enough and close enough to him to spend time with his after the conviction came out regardless of the accusations. I believe the two survivors who have come forward, but even if I did not, there is no universe where one can credibly claim that Andrew had no idea of Epstein's....preferences and predation. We have photographic evidence of him with one of his accusers clearly showing that no matter what happened, underage girls were around when he was with Epstein.

I have actively avoided a lot of royal watching spaces recently because the excuses trotted out for Andrew have made me physically ill. It shows that there is still a lot of work to do to get people to understand sexual violence and to commit to holding perpetrators accountable.
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  #1884  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
All speculation but my two cents:

I think its unlikely Andrew had sex with anyone underage, or tbh sex with anyone at such a party/gathering. He is clearly stupid but I don't think he is that stupid. I
He did meet Epstein (in 2011) even after his 2008 conviction for "procuring for prostitution a girl below age 18". That should have been an absolute flashing screeching alarm to never go near him again, to completely cut him self off from Epstein an build the strongest tallest wall to keep anything Epstein related away. What does Andrew do - goes off and meets him in a public park in NY. IMO once the 2008 conviction is out there enough is enough, any further interaction/link with Epstein is immoral at the very least.

Not only that but around 2010/11 Epstein apparently was asked by Andrew to help pay of some of Sarah's debts to prevent her from being declared bankrupt. Epstein paid her former PA £15,000. Because of course you would go and ask a convicted sex offender for money wouldn't you.

If Andrew was close enough to Epstein to visit him after his 2008 conviction they are obviously much closer than acquaintances. I know plenty of people, many I would even call friends, who after such a conviction I would have no issue never speaking to never mind see again.

I find it interesting that BP's statement on the scandal is "It is emphatically denied that the Duke of York had any form of sexual contact or relationship with Virginia Roberts. Any claim to the contrary is false and without foundation.” What a remarkably specific statement, so he didn't have sexual contact with Roberts, but did he with someone else? Why such a specific denial.

Even if Andrew didn't engage in sex with underage girls, I do think he has plenty to answer for and be ashamed of. I hope Philip did arrive early at Balmoral to chase Sarah away and give Andrew a right royal dressing down. I certainly think he is more likely to be tough on him than HM, Philip also perhaps has the benefit of being away from the royals more, staying at Wood Farm perhaps has helped him see this more from out point of view rather than that of "inside the bunker". I hope when Charles becomes King he kicks Andrew into shape, making it clear to follow the rules or accept the consequences.
I don't believe he had sex with underage girls.. but he knew that Epstein did procure underage girls.... and he went on seeing him. He should have distanced himself... I think that ANdrew does hang around with people who are rich.. because he likes money. But someone who is convicted of such a horrible crime is not a fit associate for a royal
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  #1885  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:07 PM
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Rena M. here in the forums had this photo in her post:
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2245757

And I can not make it going away. It looks like this here, Mr. Burns from the Simspons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mr_Burns.png

Prince Andrew back then met the already convicted sex offender Epstein like a friend:
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cp..._025261369.jpg

And now Prince Andrew mimics the bad/evil Mr. Burns from the Simpsons Show at the same time, Mr. Epstein dies an untimely death? What is going on there? This behaviour is at least as teenager-esque wannabe-mighty, as one could expect, considered what is claimed about Prince Andrew: That he is very much into Teenagers. That much, that he fell into a trap.

Randy Andy...
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  #1886  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:13 PM
Rena M.'s Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Both Charles and Andrew have shown a lover's profile that is typical for the sons of very strong and impressive mothers: they prefer to date older women
You can't call Sarah older woman! She is the same age as Andrew.
It is also important to remember that during his marriage to Sarah, Andrew was never at home and Sarah was driven to having affairs. The couple saw each other for a mere 40 days a year for the first five years.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCzAp5IhyL4
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  #1887  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
Rena M. here in the forums had this photo in her post:
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2245757

And I can not make it going away. It looks like this here, Mr. Burns from the Simspons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mr_Burns.png

Prince Andrew back then met the already convicted sex offender Epstein like a friend:
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cp..._025261369.jpg

And now Prince Andrew mimics the bad/evil Mr. Burns from the Simpsons Show at the same time, Mr. Epstein dies an untimely death? What is going on there? This behaviour is at least as teenager-esque wannabe-mighty, as one could expect, considered what is claimed about Prince Andrew: That he is very much into Teenagers. That much, that he fell into a trap.

Randy Andy...
That is an awful lot of speculation and projection. I really doubt that Andrew was smiling about Epstein's death especially while going to church with his mother!
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  #1888  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:27 PM
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What people believe about the guilt or innocence of anyone accused is irrelevant IMO because none of us here has all the facts. Justice is served when all evidence is presented honestly without fear of death threats or the repercussions of powerful people. This case is already a mess of corruption and it's going to become even messier as more people come forward with accusations, witness reports, background information and more evidence as it's discovered in Epstein's homes.

Particular scrutiny should be paid to those people who continued to associate with Epstein after he was a convicted sex offender. Why would anyone do that? Huge questions need to be raised about this, particularly re: Prince Andrew who was working on behalf of British business at the time.

My main focus overall is wanting to see a transparent & rigorous investigation resulting in justice for all concerned. However, based on previous corrupt practice that has protected the wealthy & powerful, I'm not entirely confident this will happen.
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  #1889  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:34 PM
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Andrew should not have dragged his mother into the story just in order to excuse himself and in doing so he implicates himself. If innocent, he wouldnt feel the need to rush up to Balmoral to escape the consequences of consosring with shady people. In the limousine, he conceals his history behind his mother's overwheming glory. The queen is implicated indirectly in justifying unethical behaviour.
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  #1890  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob2008 View Post
Andrew should not have dragged his mother into the story just in order to excuse himself and in doing so he implicates himself. If innocent, he wouldnt feel the need to rush up to Balmoral to escape the consequences of consosring with shady people. In the limousine, he conceals his history behind his mother's overwheming glory. The queen is implicated indirectly in justifying unethical behaviour.
What!

Andrew did not "drag his mother into the story." Andrew was visiting Balmoral-exactly the same as he is every other year-to spend his daughter's birthday with his family, including his mother. He escorted his mother to church - as he often does other times he visits Balmoral. Nothing nefarious, or unusual here.
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  #1891  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:09 PM
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None of these arrangements are governed by chance. It is a political decision to seat Andrew next to his mother at this difficult time in his life.
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  #1892  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:15 PM
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And it's why the Queen had Prince Andrew invested with the insignia of a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order in a private ceremony when the BRF started taking more serious heat. Let's not pretend she doesn't know what's up.
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  #1893  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:20 PM
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I have to disagree here with you, rob. If one had the time and the energy, they could find dozens upon dozens of pictures of Andrew with his mother going to church or anywhere else. It would be more glaringly obvious that something was up with Andrew if he *wouldn't* have gone to Balmoral as he does every year with his family or escort his mother to church.

This pattern of the Yorks at Balmoral has been well established for years.
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  #1894  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:53 PM
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Surely this thread is just going to be filled with Daily Mail articles and hearsay, when with Epstein dead and Andrew not actually accused of anything this thread is redundant....
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  #1895  
Old 08-15-2019, 05:02 PM
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You've made a good point. At this time, the ongoing investigations are focusing on a) cause of Epstein's death and b) searching for those that aided and abetted Epstein in the crimes he was indicted for.

Anything having to do with Andrew, from what I can figure out, would have to be from a victim filing a lawsuit against Andrew under the new Child Victim Act which, I believe, is only valid in the US. Raises the question if Andrew would have to be extradited to the US to stand trial and a whole other worms in a can. I'm no legal eagle so its not clear to me how it would be handled.

My personal thinking of this is that the victims stand a much better chance suing Epstein's estate.
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  #1896  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I have to disagree here with you, rob. If one had the time and the energy, they could find dozens upon dozens of pictures of Andrew with his mother going to church or anywhere else. It would be more glaringly obvious that something was up with Andrew if he *wouldn't* have gone to Balmoral as he does every year with his family or escort his mother to church.

This pattern of the Yorks at Balmoral has been well established for years.
There IS something up...
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  #1897  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Surely this thread is just going to be filled with Daily Mail articles and hearsay, when with Epstein dead and Andrew not actually accused of anything this thread is redundant....
This thread isn't redundent until it has been proven Prince Andrew did not participate in anything Epstein did. And even then, I still question is common sense in having friends like that.

At this point in the investigation no other people have been accused of anything. That, however, doesn't mean no one else was involved. We all know far to many powerful men were.
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  #1898  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Elenath View Post
This thread isn't redundent until it has been proven Prince Andrew did not participate in anything Epstein did.

That’s not how the law works I’m afraid. Andrew has not been accused or charged with anything therefore what is there to discuss. It’s all, quite frankly, needless speculation and hearsay on the part of tabloids.
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  #1899  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Empress Merel View Post
And it's why the Queen had Prince Andrew invested with the insignia of a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order in a private ceremony when the BRF started taking more serious heat. Let's not pretend she doesn't know what's up.
On 23 April 2006 HM created Prince Andrew a: Royal Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (KG).
Quote:
The Most Noble Order of the Garter is an order of chivalry founded by King Edward III of England in 1348. It is the most senior order of knighthood in the British honours system, outranked in precedence only by the Victoria Cross and the George Cross. The Order of the Garter is dedicated to the image and arms of Saint George, England's patron saint.
The GCVO is a family order and mostly we only know they have them when they wear them at a State Banquet. To intimate that Andrew only got it as a blind carries no weight whatsoever as we wouldn't have known he had it until he wore it. However, it pales into insignificance to the Order of the Garter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob2008 View Post
Andrew should not have dragged his mother into the story just in order to excuse himself and in doing so he implicates himself. If innocent, he wouldnt feel the need to rush up to Balmoral to escape the consequences of consosring with shady people. In the limousine, he conceals his history behind his mother's overwheming glory. The queen is implicated indirectly in justifying unethical behaviour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
What!

Andrew did not "drag his mother into the story." Andrew was visiting Balmoral-exactly the same as he is every other year-to spend his daughter's birthday with his family, including his mother. He escorted his mother to church - as he often does other times he visits Balmoral. Nothing nefarious, or unusual here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob2008 View Post
None of these arrangements are governed by chance. It is a political decision to seat Andrew next to his mother at this difficult time in his life.
It would seem that you have totally made up your mind to join the lynching party and are willing to accuse out Queen of tacitly approving paedophilia just to make such a sleazy point.

Let's look at a few truths that stand the test of time:

Andrew and his daughters have joined The Queen at Balmoral in time to celebrate Beatrice's birthday every year. On many occasions, he is joined by Sarah who keeps a very low profile.

Since the Retirement of Prince Philip, the Queen is joined by a member of her family to church when they are staying at either Sandringham or Balmoral. Over time if Andrew is present the duty falls to him as he does not have a wife to escort. At Balmoral, Charles and Camilla stay at their own home, Birkhall and drive from there. The rest all follow.

At Sandringham, HM drives to Church accompanied by a member of the family, while the rest of the family walk so long as the weather is brisk rather than arctic. The only time she is accompanied by a lady in waiting seems to be when none of the rest of the extended family is present.

To assert that HM "knows" Andrew is "guilty" and is throwing around fairy dust to blind everyone is not just salacious, it is malicious and best left unsaid unless you have the legitimate evidence to back up your claim that HM is corrupt, as indeed is the claim she is implicated in justifying his unethical behaviour.
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  #1900  
Old 08-16-2019, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
That’s not how the law works I’m afraid. Andrew has not been accused or charged with anything therefore what is there to discuss. It’s all, quite frankly, needless speculation and hearsay on the part of tabloids.
But the investigation hasn't been concluded yet. And I know how the law works, I work at a court house. None of us know if Andrew is a (potential) suspect and until the investigation is officially over, it's still possible Andrew will be investigated or charged. Is a lot of it speculation or hearsay? Sure.. but a lot on this forum is.

The fact that you want this to be over doesn't mean it is.
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