The Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein Controversy 2: Sep 2022 -

[sophie25]

That's why I have always said that Andrew should never have settled the case!
Once someone does that, the public automatically assumes guilt.

Yes, I understand the RF wanted it to go away, so as not to cast a damper on the Queen's Jubilee.

Still, I feel it was a huge mistake.

It was a total waste of money, I'm sure the royals thought they could buy their way out of it but not a chance. Andrew in his Garter robes at the Coronation was a not a good look.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I've always thought that if your being truthful you have absolutely nothing to fear. The smartest lawyers in the World cannot catch you out if here is literally nothing to catch you out on. On the contrary, if someone accused me of something really terrible that was untrue not only would I not be paying them off I wouldn't be able to get them into court quickly enough to clear my name before suing them in turn for slander. Prince Andrew has lost his reputation and his place in public life, allegedly over something he is entirely innocent of. I just can't believe that he of all people would continously endure this punishment if he was innocent, not to mention the multi millions he paid to Virginia Guiffre to try and make her go away. Whatever he is hiding, even if he is innocent of the specific charges she has labelled against him, he is certainly hiding something, perhaps a number of things, that are so bad he would rather tolerate this constant humiliation than go to the authorities to try and clear his name.

He wanted to defend himself but his mother, brother and nephew thought that the late Queen's Jubilee was more important and so made him settle out of court - thus denying him the right to clear his name.

It is interesting to remember that she said she would never settle out of court but when his lawyers insisted on seeing the original photo she said it was 'lost' and the next day settled out of court - that smells fishy to me.

 

[Curryong]

He wanted to defend himself but his mother, brother and nephew thought that the late Queen's Jubilee was more important and so made him settle out of court - thus denying him the right to clear his name.

It is interesting to remember that she said she would never settle out of court but when his lawyers insisted on seeing the original photo she said it was 'lost' and the next day settled out of court - that smells fishy to me.

How do we know that his relatives forced this decision on to Andrew? He has never stated his reasons for settling. It could just as easily been his legal team that advised him to do so.

And if he was so desperate to clear his name (and explain away that photo with Virginia and Ghislaine at the latter’s home, for which he has no explanation), he could have defied them all, said ‘I’m going to clear my name regardless’.

But he didn’t, did he? He got himself into a nasty sordid mess with the girls he met on various occasions via Epstein, and could see no way out but to settle with Virginia, IMO.

 

[tommy100]

I'm asking this genuinely, not at all in a snarky way, but what would you have the RF do with him?

He is no longer allowed to use his HRH, carry out official duties, have honory military appointments, appear at Trooping or Jubilees or other appearances on the BP balcony etc. He is no longer getting funding for his office, for official duties, he has lost his official police protection paid for by the state (it seems).

I have my ideas what they could do, but I'd love to hear what other people think is a genuine way forward.

 

[Curryong]

There’s not really much that Charles can do. However, the family togetherness of the whole extended family, bar the Sussexes but including Andrew, walking to and fro from Church at Sandringham does not look particularly good when it must have been known at the time that these court documents were to be unsealed in the New Year. A bit of discretion regarding proximity with other relatives might have been in order. Perhaps Andrew could have attended the early service that day.

Then there’s the sight, captured in the full sight of photographers, of the Waleses giving Andrew a lift on an earlier occasion after church. And why, btw, was Andrew allowed to wear his Garter robes at his brother’s Coronation?

Plus Charles apparently still pays for his brother’s security while he lives at Royal Lodge. That could stop, forthwith.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

He wanted to defend himself but his mother, brother and nephew thought that the late Queen's Jubilee was more important and so made him settle out of court - thus denying him the right to clear his name.

It is interesting to remember that she said she would never settle out of court but when his lawyers insisted on seeing the original photo she said it was 'lost' and the next day settled out of court - that smells fishy to me.

I don't think the problem was the authenticity of the original photo at all.

I am convinced that Ms. Giuffre was persuaded to settle when other women began to come forward about how they themselves had been recruited into the organization by Virginia herself.("Do you you have any friends who look kind of trampy") or something along those lines as she boasted about the perks of the life including how she had sex with a prince.

Within days of those revelations Virginia's case was settled.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I don't think the problem was the authenticity of the original photo at all.

I am convinced that Ms. Giuffre was persuaded to settle when other women began to come forward about how they themselves had been recruited into the organization by Virginia herself.("Do you you have any friends who look kind of trampy") or something along those lines as she boasted about the perks of the life including how she had sex with a prince.

Within days of those revelations Virginia's case was settled.

The timeline with the request for the photo was that Andrew's solicitors asked for the original photo through the court on the Monday and she said it was 'lost' and she settled on the Tuesday - the day after she admitted she didn't have the original anymore and a couple of weeks after she said she wouldn't settle under any circumstances. She was asked that because of these other women's claims about her role in recruiting them being made public. The final thing for her was the court demand for the original of the photo.

Whatever - she had said she wouldn't settle and then did so.

Andrew said he would defend himself and then 'mummy's' Jubilee was deemed more important than justice for either Andrew or Virginia. Paying her off was seen as a way to ensure good PR for the Jubilee rather than any admittance of guilt.

 

[Ista]

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[VictoriaB]

Although none of us know all of the facts, I would hazard a guess that both Andrew and Virginia were encouraged by their Lawyers to settle for the same reason a lot of matters settle out of court - for certainty. Judges and juries can be difficult to read and no matter how much each person is convinced of the righteousness of their own position there is never any certainty that the judge or jury will see it their way.

Litigation is horrendously expensive and that’s just legal fees. It is emotionally draining and being under cross examination from a skilled barrister for hours or days at a time can be frustrating and difficult.

In most cases people believe they are absolutely right and that there can be no other outcome than that they will be believed. That’s why Rebecca Vardy sued Colleen Rooney over the Wagatha Christie nonsense and was humiliated. That’s why Terry Sanderson sued Gwyneth Paltrow over the skiing accident and lost, no doubt racking up huge legal bills along the way. Even when tribunals consider essentially the same set of facts, they can come to different conclusions - just ask Johnny Depp (unsuccessful in his UK libel trial) and Amber Heard (unsuccessful in the US remake).

I would bet in all cases, their lawyers would have recommended they settle out of Court. It doesn’t matter how certain you are about your position and how you know you are right, there’s no certainly somebody else will agree.

 

[ladongas]

For those who think it looks bad for Andrew to be …

…with his family- I think it looks bad for a family to be at such odds that they are never seen together. Even if Andrew did exactly what he was accused of, I think he would still be a loved family member.

He had poor judgment in the friends he chose, and in continuing to associate with them when he learned about them. Most of us would forgive a sibling for anything less than murder.

Life is too short to remain angry forever.

 

[HenRach Dominion]

I don't think anyone genuine expects the entire BRF to cut off all ties with HRH The Duke of York, just to be image-conscious enough not to do so publicly. Now, if their image as an institution is not as important as their image as a united family, then they can continue doing what they've been doing.

 

[Alison H]

There's some talk today of the King stopping funding Andrew's security at Royal Lodge. I'm sure Andrew can afford to pay for it himself - the late Queen will have made sure that he wasn't short of money.

 

[Katiedidit]

i don't think anyone genuine expects the entire brf to cut off all ties with hrh the duke of york, just to be image-conscious enough not to do so publicly. Now, if their image as an institution is not as important as their image as a united family, then they can continue doing what they've been doing.

yes!!!!!!!!

 

[tommy100]

Its interesting to me that all the times Andrew has been seen with the RF seem to be going to church - at Balmoral with W&C, Christmas Day, Easter. It makes me think that the RF very clearly see this as "private time" even if, as it is at Christmas, the public turn up. There was a period, about 2012 / 13 I think where the late Queen seemed to make a point and didn't stop to accept flowers from onlookers when did a stint of Church services at Sandringham and I wonder if she was trying to make the point that it is was her "down time" and not a public appearance. I wonder if that is what the wider RF think - when we are on holiday and going to church it isn't a public duty its a private even that the public are often part of / onlookers to. That would IMO explain why these are the only "public" times we see them with Andrew.
Again, I'm not saying I agree with them (though I do think going to church is rather like doing the school run or going to hospital - everyone should be able to do it) but I think I understand their thinking better now.

 

[sophie25]

…with his family- I think it looks bad for a family to be at such odds that they are never seen together. Even if Andrew did exactly what he was accused of, I think he would still be a loved family member.

He had poor judgment in the friends he chose, and in continuing to associate with them when he learned about them. Most of us would forgive a sibling for anything less than murder.

Life is too short to remain angry forever.

I think phrases like 'poor judgement' are a bit of a cop out. They suggest that the person concerned wasn't quite able to discern the flaws in someone else so is not really responsible for their actions. Another theory is that he knew exactly who Epstein was and still chose to be with him because he didn't care. I would tend to give teenagers the defence of naivety and poor judgement but not middle aged adults.

 

[ladongas]

Hate the sin, but love the sinner. Sooner or later, it will be too late for the family to reunite, and what will have been proven then?

I am by no means an admirer of Andrew in any way, but the family should heal this rift while they can.

 

[sophie25]

Hate the sin, but love the sinner. Sooner or later, it will be too late for the family to reunite, and what will have been proven then?

I am by no means an admirer of Andrew in any way, but the family should heal this rift while they can.

I agree when someone is contrite but he comes across that he couldn't care less about what he's done and unfortunately the BRF also give the impression that they don't care either. Their main concern seems to be about how bad it makes them look PR wise.

 

[tommy100]

Its interesting that seemingly not going to church would answer all the problems. Usually those in circumstances like this people hope the person in Andrew's position would go to church.

 

[Mirabel]

There's some talk today of the King stopping funding Andrew's security at Royal Lodge. I'm sure Andrew can afford to pay for it himself - the late Queen will have made sure that he wasn't short of money.

Richard Kay has said that the late Queen asked Charles to promise to look after Andrew.

That may be a reason why he is allowing Andrew to remain close to the family.

 

[sophie25]

Richard Kay has sad that the late Queen asked Charles to promise to look after Andrew.

That may be a reason why he is allowing Andrew to remain close to the family.

Look after a man in his 60's, can't he look after himself? Other people at that age do just fine.

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

Its interesting that seemingly not going to church would answer all the problems. Usually those in circumstances like this people hope the person in Andrew's position would go to church.

Yes, I agree!

 

[Granada]

Personally, I find it very difficult to muster sympathy for Andrew. His unparalleled greed, arrogance and entitlement has always rankled me.
I did think the Christmas Walk at Sandringham was ill advised, for him. Doesn't he care that it just gave fuel to the fire ?

Why not skip the public walk and enjoy the Gathering in private? Without giving his MANY detractors something to chew on ?
He had to have known this latest Epstein document dump was coming.

But that is his arrogance and entitlement. He does NOT care. Never has.

From his time as "Special Representative For Trade and Investment", traveling with a big taxpayer funded Entourage, with only the best Accommodation and Flights accepted. Nicknamed Air Miles Andy. With a specific Aide traveling with a special ironing board for his pants no less !

With People that had to work "with" him saying how difficult he was. That came out in Wikileaks. I believe he lined his pockets nicely with side deals too. Engineered thru VERY shady contacts he fostered. Like selling Sunninghill Park to some oligarch for millions over the asking price. Or Andrews friendship with despot Muammar Gaddafi's son.

Then when he was forced out of that position, after The Epstein Involvement came to light and public outcry, Andrew started Pitch@Palace in 2014. A business endeavor to help Entrepreneurs. But there were questions, that he profited greatly too. The draw was......Buckingham Palace.

Unfortunately, for decades there have been stories too of Andrew's very demeaning and disrespectful behavior of those he views 'beneath him'. From Cleaning staff to Protection officers. And so MANY others.

Remember in 2016 he EVEN crashed his luxury Car into Gates at Windsor Great Park when the Sensor didn't open them. Purposely. Instead of simply driving around to an alternative entry !!! Who DOES THAT ? Of course, nothing official ever came of it. But it did make headlines.

This is all par for the course for Andrew. Now the chickens are again coming home to roost. Maybe. But I bet he will try to ride it out.... again.
In his defense, he was NEVER "reined in". Why Elizabeth and Philip didn't decades ago is baffling to me. They had to have known.
And look where he is now. A pariah.

So, not being a fan of his and his documented bad behavior, *maybe* he is finally getting comeuppance. With talk of Royal Lodge and downsizing. We shall see.

 

[tommy100]

Financially Charles may well have been asked to look after Andrew as the late Queen will have left all her wealth to Charles - sovereign to sovereign, as that is not taxed. From the snippets we have had here and there it seems the the RF seem to keep all the money with the sovereign who then doles it out to the other family members as needed.
Thus, Charles may well have committed to paying for Andrew's Royal Lodge security as part of his late mother's will / last wishes. Just in the same way she probably asked for Edward and Anne to be looked after as well. I.e. I'm leaving it to you but with the wish you continue to pay the existing allowance to Anne Andrew and Edward.

There doesn't seem to be a private entrance to the church at Sandringham and the surrounding churches are part of the same group with service only held at one of them at any one time. So the choice for Andrew is to either go or not go. Personally I'd be very happy if he chose not to attend to save his family and his brother the bother but, equally, I don't think he should be forced into not going to Church.

 

[sophie25]

Financially Charles may well have been asked to look after Andrew as the late Queen will have left all her wealth to Charles - sovereign to sovereign, as that is not taxed. From the snippets we have had here and there it seems the the RF seem to keep all the money with the sovereign who then doles it out to the other family members as needed.
Thus, Charles may well have committed to paying for Andrew's Royal Lodge security as part of his late mother's will / last wishes. Just in the same way she probably asked for Edward and Anne to be looked after as well. I.e. I'm leaving it to you but with the wish you continue to pay the existing allowance to Anne Andrew and Edward.

There doesn't seem to be a private entrance to the church at Sandringham and the surrounding churches are part of the same group with service only held at one of them at any one time. So the choice for Andrew is to either go or not go. Personally I'd be very happy if he chose not to attend to save his family and his brother the bother but, equally, I don't think he should be forced into not going to Church.

The whole presumption here is that Andrew needs to live a multi millionaire lifestyle, why does he? Why do all the royals need too? No one ever asks this question.

 

[tommy100]

No. That isn't the point at all. If Charles has been asked to continue payments / meeting the cost of things by his late mother then that puts him in a tricky position. Whether that is paying £500,000 a year out or £50 a week it put Charles in a position, as it would anyone.

 

[HenRach Dominion]

Financially Charles may well have been asked to look after Andrew as the late Queen will have left all her wealth to Charles - sovereign to sovereign, as that is not taxed. From the snippets we have had here and there it seems the the RF seem to keep all the money with the sovereign who then doles it out to the other family members as needed.
Thus, Charles may well have committed to paying for Andrew's Royal Lodge security as part of his late mother's will / last wishes. Just in the same way she probably asked for Edward and Anne to be looked after as well. I.e. I'm leaving it to you but with the wish you continue to pay the existing allowance to Anne Andrew and Edward.

There doesn't seem to be a private entrance to the church at Sandringham and the surrounding churches are part of the same group with service only held at one of them at any one time. So the choice for Andrew is to either go or not go. Personally I'd be very happy if he chose not to attend to save his family and his brother the bother but, equally, I don't think he should be forced into not going to Church.

Wasn't there a year, sometime before HLM The Queen's death, where HRH The Duke of York didn't do the big walk-by because he went to an earlier service?

 

[hereditarytitles]

Did anyone see this video of Andrew while going to church in Sandringham and asking people why they have their cameras on?

I think it is a little bizarre, ever since people have mobile phones they have made pictures of the royals walk to church, that is one of the reasons why they are there. Nobody so far has forbidden them to take pics.
Why does he get so exited about that? Maybe his nerves are strained at the moment.. still it would have been wiser not to engage in such conversations with the public IMO

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ing-Sandringham-crowds-cameras-video-him.html

 

[tommy100]

Its a typical ridiculous Andrew move. Why make a fuss over it is beyond me, he should just walk there and back keeping as low key as possible.

However, many members of the RF are known to dislike walking about with everyone holding cameras before them. Obviously a very different set of circumstances, but when Charles did a walkabout in front of BP after HLM died his protection officers told people "put the phones down and enjoy the moment". I couldn't think of anything worse than walking around meeting people and them all holding phones up in front of me.

So, good question, wrong person to ask it IMO.

 

[Tirilschatz]

Did anyone see this video of Andrew while going to church in Sandringham and asking people why they have their cameras on?

I think it is a little bizarre, ever since people have mobile phones they have made pictures of the royals walk to church, that is one of the reasons why they are there. Nobody so far has forbidden them to take pics.
Why does he get so exited about that? Maybe his nerves are strained at the moment.. still it would have been wiser not to engage in such conversations with the public IMO

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ing-Sandringham-crowds-cameras-video-him.html

I saw it and found it weird, too.
Then I remembered the video from last year where he talked to people about cold feet and that newspapers in the shoes would help and decided he had just a very awkward way to interact with people.

 

[Somebody]

The weirdest thing to me remains that lots of people go somewhere to watch people go to church - it's not an official royal event: just a family attending church on Christmas day (as many (but not all) of them do every week). Nonetheless it isn't a smart thing for Andrew to engage with the people in that way.