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  #2321  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:21 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Originally Posted by Ladyelena View Post
Andrew and Epstein (and any others) were in a mutually supportive relationship. One gave royal glamour and status into the transaction and the other gave access to luxury lifestyles.

Though the glitter and power of money is always tempting, it is a case of very poor judgement by Andrew to become so personally involved. The conduct is unprofessional and reflects poorly on the monarchy - which should be protected from this kind of unwelcome association.
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  #2322  
Old 09-20-2019, 10:50 AM
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Wow, Virginia Giuffre, and other Epstein accusers, gives an interview and she describes Prince Andrew having sex with her-
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...w-aged-17.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline
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  #2323  
Old 09-20-2019, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Wow, Virginia Giuffre, and other Epstein accusers, gives an interview and she describes Prince Andrew having sex with her-
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...w-aged-17.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline
He will just it or say he didn't know she was 17 at the time.
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  #2324  
Old 09-20-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Lunawalk View Post
He will just it or say he didn't know she was 17 at the time.


I hate to say this but I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that she could have walked out and into a police station or back to her family at any time.
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  #2325  
Old 09-20-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by suztav View Post
I hate to say this but I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that she could have walked out and into a police station or back to her family at any time.
Then you don't understand the power of brainwashing on a very young girl who, most likely, had a difficult childhood. This girl was abused by powerful people and probably felt she did not have choices. From your standpoint, just getting up and walking away appears easy but, trust me, it's not that way when you're on the inside. Maybe she didn't have family; maybe she didn't trust the police. I don't know, but it's not all that easy. She was getting food and shelter from these people. Maybe her only other choice was living on the street.
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  #2326  
Old 09-20-2019, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MsLeonie View Post
Then you don't understand the power of brainwashing on a very young girl who, most likely, had a difficult childhood. This girl was abused by powerful people and probably felt she did not have choices. From your standpoint, just getting up and walking away appears easy but, trust me, it's not that way when you're on the inside. Maybe she didn't have family; maybe she didn't trust the police. I don't know, but it's not all that easy. She was getting food and shelter from these people. Maybe her only other choice was living on the street.


I accept and understand what you say. And, as I said, I have a hard time with this. I am not excusing his behavior nor his association with some a heinous man.
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  #2327  
Old 09-20-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by suztav View Post
I hate to say this but I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that she could have walked out and into a police station or back to her family at any time.
It's a very similar phenomenon to the one where individuals stay in an abusive relationship: lack of self worth, fear of what the abuser will do to them if they are caught, desire to please the abuser, lack of awareness of options, lack of a support group, lack of money (resources), nowhere to do.....The list goes on. Add to this the reality that Epstein had the money to make problems disappear, and apparently did so successfully for quite a few years. All of the victims would have known that. How comfortable would most ordinary people be in taking on someone with Epstein's money and contacts? He had a prince and other well-known and influential people as friends.
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  #2328  
Old 09-20-2019, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by suztav View Post
I accept and understand what you say. And, as I said, I have a hard time with this. I am not excusing his behavior nor his association with some a heinous man.
Fair enough. People on the outside looking in can't understand but, as I said, it's not that easy. Abused young children (both girls and boys) feel they have no options. The world can be very cruel and they will do anything to survive. The option would be NOT surviving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ista View Post
It's a very similar phenomenon to the one where individuals stay in an abusive relationship: lack of self worth, fear of what the abuser will do to them if they are caught, desire to please the abuser, lack of awareness of options, lack of a support group, lack of money (resources), nowhere to do.....The list goes on. Add to this the reality that Epstein had the money to make problems disappear, and apparently did so successfully for quite a few years. All of the victims would have known that. How comfortable would most ordinary people be in taking on someone with Epstein's money and contacts? He had a prince and other well-known and influential people as friends.
EXACTLY!! You have said it much better than I. Thanks.
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  #2329  
Old 09-20-2019, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunawalk View Post
He will just it or say he didn't know she was 17 at the time.
Of course he’d be believed because why wouldn’t someone believe a prince? Who’d think Queen Elizabeth’s son would be capable of doing such a thing?

What these young women went through under Jeffery Epstein, allegedly under Andrew and under all the other powerful men - makes me sick to my stomach.
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  #2330  
Old 09-20-2019, 05:45 PM
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The whole scénario is irresponsible and shows poor judgement. A prince of the blood should be 'squeaky clean' in all that he does.
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  #2331  
Old 09-20-2019, 06:08 PM
ACO ACO is offline
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Originally Posted by suztav View Post
I hate to say this but I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that she could have walked out and into a police station or back to her family at any time.
Think of the case of kidnapped victims staying with their abusers even if the door is unlocked and they are no longer chained. It is that Stockholm syndrome effect. Desperation, fear, and complete lack of self worth will do a lot to one's mental state. This is why a lot of people stay with their abusers knowing it will never end.
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  #2332  
Old 09-20-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ACO View Post
Think of the case of kidnapped victims staying with their abusers even if the door is unlocked and they are no longer chained. It is that Stockholm syndrome effect. Desperation, fear, and complete lack of self worth will do a lot to one's mental state. This is why a lot of people stay with their abusers knowing it will never end.
As somebody that has been through an abusive relationship to a much lesser degree than Ms. Guiffre, I can attest to these facts. Self esteem and self worth are very low and it seems like there is absolutely no way out that one can survive in and one sometimes looks outside oneself to find different ways of "coping" and pushing what is so wrong to the far recesses of the mind. It takes a lot of strength and courage and a good support system sometimes to even gain a backbone strong enough to walk away and say "no more". I was one of the lucky ones.

I, personally, would not hold Andrew responsible at all for the use and abuse these girls went through as he was, more or less, an outsider and perhaps even an infrequent visitor. The blame falls solely on Epstein and those that aided and abetted in procuring these girls. Still, if Andrew actually knew what was going on and didn't say anything, its on him. Then again, perhaps even his "friendship" with Epstein could have had control factors in it whereas Andrew was prevented from calling the man out. We just don't know at this point. Its been mentioned before that Epstein had a lot of "dirt" he could use to expose the rich and the famous should he be crossed. It seemed easy enough for Epstein to wangle that "sweetheart" deal and continue his lifestyle as he pleased.
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  #2333  
Old 09-20-2019, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rob2008 View Post
The whole scénario is irresponsible and shows poor judgement. A prince of the blood should be 'squeaky clean' in all that he does.
But history has demonstrated that they almost never are. Compared to the exploits of some of his Hanover/Windsor-Mountbatten forebears, not to mention Royals and aristocrats in pre-Revolutionary France and Russia, Andrew is a Boy Scout.
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  #2334  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
As somebody that has been through an abusive relationship to a much lesser degree than Ms. Guiffre, I can attest to these facts. Self esteem and self worth are very low and it seems like there is absolutely no way out that one can survive in and one sometimes looks outside oneself to find different ways of "coping" and pushing what is so wrong to the far recesses of the mind. It takes a lot of strength and courage and a good support system sometimes to even gain a backbone strong enough to walk away and say "no more". I was one of the lucky ones.

I, personally, would not hold Andrew responsible at all for the use and abuse these girls went through as he was, more or less, an outsider and perhaps even an infrequent visitor. The blame falls solely on Epstein and those that aided and abetted in procuring these girls. Still, if Andrew actually knew what was going on and didn't say anything, its on him. Then again, perhaps even his "friendship" with Epstein could have had control factors in it whereas Andrew was prevented from calling the man out. We just don't know at this point. Its been mentioned before that Epstein had a lot of "dirt" he could use to expose the rich and the famous should he be crossed. It seemed easy enough for Epstein to wangle that "sweetheart" deal and continue his lifestyle as he pleased.
Well, why would Andrew call Epstein out when (allegedly) Andrew was having forced sex with a child? You’re not going to do jack about anything when you’re taking part in sex trafficking crimes.

Andrew isn’t stupid. He knew damn well what was going on and -according to Virginia Roberts Giuffre- Andrew was a participant in these crimes. This is likely why Andrew remained very good friends and spent time with Jeffery Epstein even after he became an convicted paedophile. If Andrew was completely innocent of any wrongdoing, he would’ve dropped His friendship with Epstein like a fiery red hot potato. He wouldn’t have jeopardized his reputation as a senior member of the royal family by staying friends with Epstein and Maxwell.

So Andrew can hop in the car with The Queen or even sit on her lap if he’d like...he might as well man up and face the consequences.

I look forward to seeing Virginia and the other victims interview tonight.
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  #2335  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:11 PM
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We still don't really know the *extent* of how much Andrew knew or didn't know so I'm not jumping on that bandwagon quite yet. It certainly does *look* like Andrew could have known the whole shebang of it but I know that things are not always as they seem to be.

As far as I can tell from everything that has come out, there's no crime anywhere that Andrew can actually be charged and convicted on. Even if he *did* sleep with Ms. Guiffre back then, on all accounts that I've read, it wasn't forced by Andrew and she wasn't underage at the time.

I'll have to catch up on those girl's interviews as I have out of state visitors (my baby is turning 42 tomorrow).
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  #2336  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:34 PM
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I can't believe "Lady" Colin Campbell defends Andrew. Check Dan Wootton's tweet. I don't think I am allowed to post the tweet here?
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  #2337  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RedRoyal View Post
I can't believe "Lady" Colin Campbell defends Andrew. Check Dan Wootton's tweet. I don't think I am allowed to post the tweet here?
Well, the whole thing is what the old aristocratic world are used to and some will defend it. Campbell’s brains has always been on vacation.
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  #2338  
Old 09-20-2019, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Well, the whole thing is what the old aristocratic world are used to and some will defend it. Campbell’s brains has always been on vacation.
You're right about the aristocratic world and turning a blind eye in the past to peccadillos but this Epstein mess is a whole different ball game in my eyes.

The difficult thing that is going to occur is being actually able to pin any sort of misdeeds against Andrew, personally. As for Ms. Campbell, the one book I've read by her was filled with a lot of "a source high up in the palace" and "someone close to the royals" and such so I've never taken her seriously at all and won't.
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  #2339  
Old 09-20-2019, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by suztav View Post
I hate to say this but I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that she could have walked out and into a police station or back to her family at any time.
Here’s a link to an article which covers the dateline show airing tonight & touches on some of the victims’ explanations for why they were caught up in and remained so long in Epstein’s web. https://news.google.com/articles/CAI...S&ceid=US%3Aen
I don’t normally watch this sort of thing - but may do so in this case.
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  #2340  
Old 09-20-2019, 09:47 PM
Majesty
 
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Originally Posted by rob2008 View Post
The whole scénario is irresponsible and shows poor judgement. A prince of the blood should be 'squeaky clean' in all that he does.
Sorry to disappoint you, but princes of the blood have had sex with prostitutes for centuries.
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