Rival Claimants to the French Throne 1: Ending 2020

[Thribette]

Would Madame Royale have been another person than the one who married her cousin the duke of Angoulême (may I precise that this is very, very highly improbable), and would she have got children, these children would have been highly sought-after in marriage as descendents of Louis XVI, but nothing else. No right to the French throne can be brought by a woman.
Which brings us to Domhangairt's fantasist comments, as he seems to find a right to French throne because of the parenthood of the present Orléans family and Louis XVII, while this parenthood is merely Habsburg parenthood in female line (because mitochondrial DNA, transmitted by women, is usually the best preserved), though of no matter in French succession.
And Warren is right to remind him that his points 1 & 2 have been extensively discussed here, may I simply remind him (1) that the Utrecht renounciations, if they had been valid, would have explicitely excluded the Orélans branch since 1850, and not only the elder branch... and (2) that in French succession, as based on Catholic rules, a prince's legitimate children are his wife's, there have been too many gossips upon queens and princesses fidelity with this rule, what would it have been if those suspicions could have excluded a prince from the throne!

 

[fred mason]

cannot understand why some one who follows the royal forum advocates for a republic,it appears they are just followers and not true sons and daughters of monarchies,god save the king,god save the queen!!!!

 

[DeBerry#1]

in line for the crown

Naturally if there was a monarchy I'd go for Deberry.

 

[EmpressRouge]

If the Bourbons were to become extinct (Spanish, Two-Sicilies, Parma, Orleans), who would next in line? As in, are there other legitimate Capetian lines left?

 

[Warren]

Bourbon-Busset may enter the picture at some stage as this line is extant, though 'illegitimate'.
Wiki has an interesting article. The mother of the current Duke of Parma (Carlos Hugo) was a Bourbon-Busset.

 

[jonnydep]

thank you warren for the link, as i had little knowledge of this branch of the bourbon family.....

yes it may to possiable for this family to enter the stage, one has only to look at the succession of the portuguese throne, the present claimant to that throne is the direct male descendant of the first king of portugal, though his descent is broken by two illegitimacies.....

king john I was the illegitimate son of king peter I, whilst the illegitimate son of king john was the direct male ancestor of the first king of the house of braganza, what is permissionable for the portuguse, could be also the same for the french if needs be. well at least after the legitimate lines of the house of bourbon as become extinct as empressrougue had stated !

come to think of it, was not the first king of portugal, also a direct male desendant of hugh capet, the progenitor of all successive kings of france and the house of bourbon !!....could the portuguese have a look in at some later stage if the house of bourbon-busset becomes extinct as well ?

well perhaps am dreaming here, its a fair point though, you might agree !

 

[Thribette]

EmpressRouge, the French succession rules stop at the end of Capetians in male, legitimate line.
Further, there is no rule.
Nowadays all dynast Capetians are Bourbons (including Orléans).
King Louis XIV tried to push his illegitimate sons just after, but his will was broken by Paris Parliament (which had no authority in succession laws, but all jurists approved this impossibility of determining who could become king/queen of France in case of a total extinction of legitimate Capetians).
What is stated is, in case of extinction of Capetians, the people (or God, in case of a miracle) would chose a new king (or queen).
It could be among illegitimate lines, or by women descent, or seeking Merovingians (Carolingians are totally extincted by male line since XIth century, but some French families may be Merovingians in male, legitimate line, such as the dukes of Gramont, the dukes of Mortemart, the house of Brosses... if Thierry I of Autun was a Merovingian).
Or any other solution.

 

[Priest008]

Why all this discussion??? Just ignore the revolution as if it never happened, and think that Charles X was the last Bourbon, now the pretender to the Bourbon dynasty should be restored! this is God's wish, they rule by divine right, how can any man interfere with God's plan?

 

[MAfan]

Sorry, but I can't understand your point; are you suggesting to ignore that the French revolution happened, or are you criticizing that the discussion in this thread doesn't consider that the French revolution happened?
However, a similar event can't be ignored, it would be unrealistic.

 

[RJ TAYLER]

With there being two 'competing claims' to the vacant French Throne [non-Imperial] it might be prudent to offer one of them that does not get restored the vacant title of Count de Foix and for that claimant to reign over the state of Andorra? Just a thought.

 

[LouisXVI]

How come the legitamist line goes back to Louis XV decendants that are not of the XIV line. Wouldn't Charles X line be the one do be legit. He was made to abdicate his line not by his choice. Louis XVI line was murdered, Louis XVII had no issue and Charles X did but was forced to abducate. this force was done illegally and HIS decendants have the right no? I'm confussed, someone please explain why it goes back to Louis XVI great great grandfather.

Sorry, but I can't understand your point; are you suggesting to ignore that the French revolution happened, or are you criticizing that the discussion in this thread doesn't consider that the French revolution happened?

I think he means to cut it out to avoid confusion. who would be the heir today if Charles X continued to be king.?

 

[MAfan]

Even if Charle X had continued to be King, his male line descendants would eventually end in 1883 with the death of the Count of Chambord. So the problem would still remain; maybe something would change if as King the Count of Chambors had clearly designed his successor (although as far as I have understood he actually did, considering the Count of Paris as his successor to the claims to the French Throne).

 

[Anne83]

Should be Henri, Comte de Paris, Duc de France, due to his magnificent lineage
I respect all opinions

 

[LouisXVI]

If the throne of france isn't aloud to pass to a foriegn hier why then didn't Luis Alfonso de Bourbon have his kids in france? If people keep rejecting him as a possible king of france (hypothetically if the monarchy was restored) wouldn't his son be the better option. Though his son is not born in france so HIS grandson could, but he still only a little baby.

Also why is he the pretender? he is not form a direct male line and he is decended from the second sons, and one female of every spanish heir? i confused ....

If you follow the line from Charles III of spain, with his son Prince Carlos Antonio his line is to the spanish throne, therefore can't suceed the french throne. Even if you follow it through it stops at Isabella II of spain. As a woman she cannot carry on an heir to a salic law of france. This line is where Luis Alfonso is from.

As with Price Carlos's brother, they two are in line for there own crown so Charles III line is ruled out. That leaves Charles III brother Philip, Duke of Parma line as the rightfull one to the french throne?

you know if the comte de Chambord actually had children this would all be put to rest. Why oh why didn't he have any?

 

[LaPlusBelle]

I would like to know as well. And also, why are there two Dukes of Anjou? That's terribly confusing.

 

[MAfan]

Luis Alfonso is a descendant from both Queen Isabel II and her husband, King Francisco de Asis of Spain, who was her paternal cousin; Francisco de Asis was the son of Infante Francisco de Paula, hismelf a son of King Carlos IV of Spain and brother of King Fernando VII and Infante Carlos (the first Carlist claimant). So he is a male line descendant of the French Kings.

 

[LouisXVI]

yes but King Carlos IV of spain is his own throne. Frances throne can't be forged into the decendants of a foriegn throne. Carlos IV of spain line is not eligitable.

Surely the throne falling into foreign heirs would be considered more taboo then not taking the senior capet line.

When it came to the point where the senior line meant that Spain and France's king were one and the same person, they should of made the second heir the French line and the Spain one the senior. After all the french line is the one that interferred with the still strong spanish crown.

Le grande dauphin had 3 hiers one died in infancy, the other king of spain, the last had no issue.

So you have no choice but to take the King of spain. HIS children is where i think it should have separated:

Louis I of Spain had no issue
Ferdinand VI of Spain had no issue
Charles III of Spain inherited his own crown so cannot take France's.

what does that leave as a senior elligable ( doesn't have his own throne) heir to the french throne from Philip V of Spain?
his fourth son Philip, Duke of Parma

 

[MAfan]

But also Infante Felipe, Duke of Parma, was the sovereign of a State and titular of a foreign Throne, so according to your reasonment also he (and therefore his descendants too) can't be eligible for the French Throne.
This leaves only the Orleans.

 

[LouisXVI]

Soveriegn of state and being titular are different things then being king of a whole nation.

 

[MAfan]

At the time the Dukedom of Parma was a "whole nation"; under this point there was no difference between Parma and Spain.

 

[Warren]

you know if the comte de Chambord actually had children this would all be put to rest. Why oh why didn't he have any?

Henri and his wife Maria Theresa of Modena (Austria-Este) had no children. I'm sure this situation wasn't by choice.

 

[loyalsubject]

A foreigner can surely be king of France as when king Henry IV of Navarre ascended to the french thrown as Henry III of France. (He even changed from Calvinism to Catholicism proclaiming the famous phrase "Paris is well worth a mass").

The only rule concerning foreigners is based on the Utrecht treaty that stated that a descendant of Felipe V of Spain (grandson of Louis XIV) could never rule France as this would have bonded the french and spanish throne altering the balance of power in Europe.

That would rule out Carlo, the current duke of Parma since he is descendant of Felipe V.

It seems that in the hunt for the next corresponding line not descended from Felipe V is the one that originated from the second son of Louis XIII, the very same line that bore the backstabbing Louis-Phillipe and the current Count of Orleans.

I think the only legal loophole that could be found for Louis-Alphonse is that he is not the king of Spain and therefore there is no risk of fusing the French and Spanish crown (as they dislike each other anyways!) because his grandfather renounced the Spanish throne for him and his heirs, so in legality there is no risk of ever bonding the French and Spanish throne as his line could never inherit the Spanish throne.
Plus, he IS after all THE senior heir of Henry III of France, the first Bourbon king of France. The only question is, why oh why did he have his males born in USA??????!!! I don't know!!!!!! The French would NEVER recognize a king born in the USA

 

[LouisXVI]

The only question is, why oh why did he have his males born in USA??????!!! I don't know!!!!!! The French would NEVER recognize a king born in the USA

I ask the same question. If he is wanting to be the heir to the French throne he should of had the twins in France. I guess his sons would have tri citizenship with all three countries, cause of his parents?. We'll just have to wait till his eldest has a child and hopefully in france and hopefully to return the monarchy.

 

[Toison]

In 1987 by a decret of the governament of Spain it has been declared that the title of Duck of Cadiz was not to be use by Luis Alfonso de borbon, also he can NOT use the title of Royal Hignes, Spain also do not recognice her as Duque de Anjou, and no others titles he "sometines" use,.This person can be "Royal hignes" at his own home in New York or Venezuela, but not in Spain.He is, do not forget , gand son of a person Jaime the borbon who has resing all his rights,and to ad much "glorie" of his mane, is grand son of Franco, nice CV to be ROI DE FRANCE . In Spain this person is not very popular to be fair, and has no a nice relation with our Royal Family.

 

[rob2008]

If only France and the UK had merged in 1940 as proposed. We would have a British President and a French Monarch and a British Monarch and a French President.

 

[Lumutqueen]

If we had a monarch we wouldn't have a president, we would have a Prime Minister. Like we have now.

 

[rob2008]

If we had a monarch we wouldn't have a president, we would have a Prime Minister. Like we have now.

If France and the UK had merged in 1940 as proposed, we would have a British President and a French Monarch and a British Monarch and a French President. A Prime Minister is also forseeable.

 

[loyalsubject]

I ask the same question. If he is wanting to be the heir to the French throne he should of had the twins in France. I guess his sons would have tri citizenship with all three countries, cause of his parents?. We'll just have to wait till his eldest has a child and hopefully in france and hopefully to return the monarchy.

The twins can easily be Spanish citizens through him, and of course they're automatically US citizens now, but I think the limit of citizenships one can have is two and although he doesn't need a french citizenship to become king it would have been great to be born in France. His wife after all is very rich so I don't know why they would choose to not have them in France... ?

In 1987 by a decret of the governament of Spain it has been declared that the title of Duck of Cadiz was not to be use by Luis Alfonso de borbon, also he can NOT use the title of Royal Hignes, Spain also do not recognice her as Duque de Anjou, and no others titles he "sometines" use,.This person can be "Royal hignes" at his own home in New York or Venezuela, but not in Spain.He is, do not forget , gand son of a person Jaime the borbon who has resing all his rights,and to ad much "glorie" of his mane, is grand son of Franco, nice CV to be ROI DE FRANCE . In Spain this person is not very popular to be fair, and has no a nice relation with our Royal Family.

The decree regarding the Dukedom of Cadíz didn't mention Louis Alphonse, it just stated that his father's title, the Dukedom of Cadíz was non hereditary and therefore will revert to the crown upon the Duke's death.
As far as the "Royal Highness" matter, he was "Royal Highness" since birth and until there is a decree stating that he cannot be "Royal Highness" any more, he shall remain "Royal Highness" forevermore.
Also, He is indeed the grand son of Franco but it was Franco himself who made Juan Carlos I king so I don't know what's more embarrassing; to be grandson of Franco or to be named as the direct successor of Franco (as is the case of Juan Carlos I)...

 

[THECLERK]

Henri de Bourbon, King of France and King of Navarre

A foreigner can surely be king of France as when king Henry IV of Navarre ascended to the french thrown as Henry III of France. (He even changed from Calvinism to Catholicism proclaiming the famous phrase "Paris is well worth a mass").


Just a word: Henri IV was not a foreigner.

In fact he was Henri III de Navarre and Henri IV de France.

His father was Antoine de Bourbon-Vendome, great-great grand son of Robert de France, Count of Clermont, sixth son of Saint Louis ( Louis IX)
Her mother was Jeanne d'Albret, Queen of Navarre.

All French !

 

[loyalsubject]

Remember Henry was born in Pau, capital of the independent kingdom of Navarre. It was only after several deaths in the line of succession to the french throne that Henry III of Navarre became the next one in line to the throne of France (which was separate from Navarre), and thus produced the uniting both kingdoms under one single monarch.