Discussion About The Fallen Dynasties

[Jihan]

Hi, what's up everybody

I'm curious about royalties, especially those from abolished royal houses, thus i would like to know more about them, even thought their past glory already died down a long time ago. I'm not sure where exactly I should post my message, so I created a new thread instead. So, feel free to move it to a the correct thread if necessary.

So my question is, do you know why some of the royals that are stripped of their status often claim about the defunct thrones? What's the point of claiming something that doesn't exist anymore, which eventually led to discord between family? Like I get, it's nice of course became the head or even a king of a country. But, seeing they fighting between each other to something that didn't exist anymore, kind of ironic & funny at the same time? for example Grandduches Maria Vladimirovna had mad a formal request to the head of Russian Orthodox Church, to change the law of the succession to the Russian throne, according to which children of a representative of the dynasty who entered into an unequal marriage would be deprived of their rights to the throne. She considerers all the other descendants of the Romanovs to be born in morganatic marriages, from what I read simply to ensure that her descendants are at the head of the line, should the monarchy ever be restored in Russia. But, her son have morganatic marriage at the last I find it's interesting, some of them did all this length that led a disputed to another branch, for those of you who a long time ago are monarchy countries, what do you think of your "future monarch?" Thanks in advance

 

[Jihan]

I wanted to created a poll, but had no idea how exactly? I wanted to know what is your favorite fallen royal houses/dinasties? Mine is the Great Ottoman empire, Jahi dinasty & Mali empire

 

[Jihan]

And my noisiness has yet another questions what royal houses/dinasty you would like to be restored and why? That's for today hahaha

 

[Toledo]

For comparison, here in the USA when a President, Vice President or any titled government officer retires, including Judicial members, they are referred to by their title. No one on TV says retired Mr President Carter, just President Carter in present time.

For royals I assume that's a similar way to refer to them by their former title. And a change of government can't take away what title your family held for over a thousand years. It's like you doing a DNA ancesntry test and someone in a new government position declaring you are not entitled to your historical heritage and what defined your family.

Lenin, Stalin, the French Revolution and every republican on planet earth can't tell you are not whom you are. And the hypocrisy of it all is that most leaders in republican forms of government also form their dynasties, too. The Kennedys, The Bush Family, Somoza, Pinochet, and financial dynasties within republics too like Rockefellers, Murdochs, Gates, etc.

Re your question on current houses to be restored. I would like to see the Balkan countries restore them, like Albania, Rumania and Montenegro. It would be great for tourism.

 

[Jihan]

For comparison, here in the USA when a President, Vice President or any titled government officer retires, including Judicial members, they are referred to by their title. No one on TV says retired Mr President Carter, just President Carter in present time.

For royals I assume that's a similar way to refer to them by their former title. And a change of government can't take away what title your family held for over a thousand years. It's like you doing a DNA ancesntry test and someone in a new government position declaring you are not entitled to your historical heritage and what defined your family.

Lenin, Stalin, the French Revolution and every republican on planet earth can't tell you are not whom you are.

Thanks, that's make sense thus I agree with ur point. I can see that's one of the many reasons why they still eager to refer themselves with their former styles, because like u said it's their ancestry, heritage & that's what define them. But, what I don't understand is the dispute between families over it. Who are them to tell another branch that they're not what they are claimed to be? How they decide who's gonna becomes the head of families and who are not eligible for it? That's what sadden me actually, I found it ironic & funny at the same time, that the one who usually declaring you're not the person you claimed to be is actually another branch/their families instead, who supposed to be embrace the legacy they shared together. Yet, some of them have the audacity to claimed that they're care about their peoples, when in fact some of them didn't even care about other claimant/families who share the same legacy, the other claimant are their peoples too yet they use everything to put them aside, smh. I might be wrong but this is what I see regarding the dispute over the defunct throne

Re your question on current houses to be restored. I would like to see the Balkan countries restore them, like Albania, Rumania and Montenegro. It would be great for tourism.

That would be nice to boost tourism, the internet gonna be crazy seeing some kind of fairytale came true in 21st era.
and judging by the current situation in Iran rn, I think they have more chance to restore their monarchies. Peoples in Iran already echoing about restoring their monarchy after what happen. I wonder who's gonna got the throne? As I read that the Pahlavi was/is not considered as "true royal" that's why royalties around the world stay silent by not giving them sanctuary when they got usurp by Khomeini, since the Pahlavi usurp Qajar dinasty too and then proclaimed themselves as new shah of Iran. Even though the founder of Qajar dinasty is not a saint either, but at least their reign is something.
But, since the Pahlavi is the newest dinasty that occupied Iran's throne at the times, they're probably got the chance despite their short reign or their peoples probably elected another king/new dinasty (if that's possible) who has an extraordinary ancestral record that has brought glory to Iran in the past

 

[Toledo]

The Pahlavi dethroned the Kajar dynasty with the interference of foreign countries. It happens all the time. Then the Shah dethroned his own father.

To legitimize and glamorize the family amongst established dynasties he married Fawiza from to the Egyptian Royal family that resembled actress Viven Leigh, then a local Iranian beauty, Soraya, that resembled actress Ava Gardner, and finally another beauty, Farah, that resembled actress Sophia Loren.

Let's say he has a type.
Or was maybe influenced by the Agha Khan marrying Rita Hayword or Rainier marrying Grace Kelly and getting so much world press attention. He also tried to marry Maria Gabriela of Savoy, at the time girlfriend of future King Juan Carlos.

The Shah's son has a chance of restoration but for that all the historical pieces have to be in place: an internal revolution to reject the of religious oppression: a military interference that reasons they need a leadership no one can question to save the country and: the financial support of the west to give Iran the opportunity to become a full constitutional monarchy promoting equality of men and women.

For example, had the USA not established a puppet government in Afghanistan with an employee of the Texas oil industries as president, and the interference of many religious groups that flooded the country to Christianize it, there would be less conflict and resentment. During those days we had in the USA TV ads on TV preachers asking money for Bibles to be sent to Iraq and Afghanistan. Just deplorable and disgraceful lack of respect toward the people of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Had the USA restored the monarchy, it would have been a different story. The former king was related to all the tribes in conflict and would have mediate to peaceful resolutions. Quite frankly, USA type of republics just don't work everywhere. You have to respect culture, traditions and people before imposing government formulas that are not even successful in our country itself.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Hi, what's up everybody

I'm curious about royalties, especially those from abolished royal houses, thus i would like to know more about them, even thought their past glory already died down a long time ago. I'm not sure where exactly I should post my message, so I created a new thread instead. So, feel free to move it to a the correct thread if necessary.

So my question is, do you know why some of the royals that are stripped of their status often claim about the defunct thrones? What's the point of claiming something that doesn't exist anymore, which eventually led to discord between family? Like I get, it's nice of course became the head or even a king of a country. But, seeing they fighting between each other to something that didn't exist anymore, kind of ironic & funny at the same time�� for example Grandduches Maria Vladimirovna had mad a formal request to the head of Russian Orthodox Church, to change the law of the succession to the Russian throne, according to which children of a representative of the dynasty who entered into an unequal marriage would be deprived of their rights to the throne. She considerers all the other descendants of the Romanovs to be born in morganatic marriages, from what I read simply to ensure that her descendants are at the head of the line, should the monarchy ever be restored in Russia. But, her son have morganatic marriage at the last I find it's interesting, some of them did all this length that led a disputed to another branch, for those of you who a long time ago are monarchy countries, what do you think of your "future monarch?" Thanks in advance

For some, it’s not so much about a throne but more about (for the families that still have a fairly high rating) who actually represents the family at cultural and social events. If a person was born during the time of the monarchy, they will keep them. The case of Maria Vladmirovna is that well the other Romanov members aren’t necessarily vying for titular Tsar because they are of morganatic marriages and they are more concerned with the Romanov family association not the headship of the family. Yes her only son and child made a morganatic marriage and IMO her claims have fallen. Plus there have been occasions where imposters have claimed to be members of a family, but aren’t. Some dynasties were deposed by communist or dictatorial regimes.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Thanks, that's make sense thus I agree with ur point. I can see that's one of the many reasons why they still eager to refer themselves with their former styles, because like u said it's their ancestry, heritage & that's what define them. But, what I don't understand is the dispute between families over it. Who are them to tell another branch that they're not what they are claimed to be? How they decide who's gonna becomes the head of families and who are not eligible for it? That's what sadden me actually, I found it ironic & funny at the same time, that the one who usually declaring you're not the person you claimed to be is actually another branch/their families instead, who supposed to be embrace the legacy they shared together. Yet, some of them have the audacity to claimed that they're care about their peoples, when in fact some of them didn't even care about other claimant/families who share the same legacy, the other claimant are their peoples too yet they use everything to put them aside, smh. I might be wrong but this is what I see regarding the dispute over the defunct throne.

The thing with some families/dynasties there are clear house laws and regulations and the succession as to who leads which family/branch of the family. There are times when some heirs display unacceptable behaviour or marry a person not equal to their standing so sometimes they maybe demoted from being Head. Some families have more than one branch and sometimes when a leading branch chooses to amend its succession without consulting or telling other members, it leads to disputes e.g the Bourbon-Two Sicilies family.

That would be nice to boost tourism, the internet gonna be crazy seeing some kind of fairytale came true in 21st era.
and judging by the current situation in Iran rn, I think they have more chance to restore their monarchies. Peoples in Iran already echoing about restoring their monarchy after what happen. I wonder who's gonna got the throne? As I read that the Pahlavi was/is not considered as "true royal" that's why royalties around the world stay silent by not giving them sanctuary when they got usurp by Khomeini, since the Pahlavi usurp Qajar dinasty too and then proclaimed themselves as new shah of Iran. Even though the founder of Qajar dinasty is not a saint either, but at least their reign is something.
But, since the Pahlavi is the newest dinasty that occupied Iran's throne at the times, they're probably got the chance despite their short reign or their peoples probably elected another king/new dinasty (if that's possible) who has an extraordinary ancestral record that has brought glory to Iran in the past

Yes the Pahlavis are a parvenu dynasty because its founder was the son of a peasant and was a military man. The Pahlavis weren’t refused sanctuary because they were a parvenu dynasty but rather governments simply refused them (not necessarily the European royal families) and the fact that Khomeini got into power and the tense diplomatic
events with some embassy hostages at the time the dynasty fell is why they weren’t given sanctuary. The Qajars were the previous ruling dynasty and they were much more established than the Pahlavis as a dynasty in that they were an older dynasty and were definitely “royal”. The Qajars are still around today and have far more descendants and many branches than the short-lived Pahlavi dynasty (at least the last Shah’s branch of the family, there are some nephews of the last Shah who are alive).

 

[Jihan]

Thank you for the additional infos

He also tried to marry Maria Gabriela of Savoy, at the time girlfriend of future King Juan Carlos.

Whew I didn't know this, he really is something first he married to the Egyptian Princess, then this. He also reportedly wanted to marry the last princess of Ottoman Empire, princess Durrushehvar but the princess chooses to marry into Asafjahi dinasty instead. He really is have a type like u said ?

Yes the Pahlavis are a parvenu dynasty because its founder was the son of a peasant and was a military man. The Pahlavis weren’t refused sanctuary because they were a parvenu dynasty but rather governments simply refused them (not necessarily the European royal families) and the fact that Khomeini got into power and the tense diplomatic
events with some embassy hostages at the time the dynasty fell is why they weren’t given sanctuary. The Qajars were the previous ruling dynasty and they were much more established than the Pahlavis as a dynasty in that they were an older dynasty and were definitely “royal”. The Qajars are still around today and have far more descendants and many branches than the short-lived Pahlavi dynasty (at least the last Shah’s branch of the family, there are some nephews of the last Shah who are alive).

So that's how it is. Do you guys have any idea why did he choose or able to live in Egypt? After what his families did to his Ex-wife the Egyptian princess?
I know that they have child together that make her half Egyptian Princess, but it's still weird for me they let him reside and even buried in Egypt. Even thought the Egyptian kingdom already fall at that times, I am confused why is it considered save for him & his families to reside there.

 

[Jihan]

And speaking of Asafjahi dinasty, in January this year the last Nizam of Hyderabad & the Last king of Greek passed away. I see an interesting phenomenon here when the ceremony took place. Moeslim are known as peoples who maintain friendship and kinship, especially with our families be it close or distance families. We even allowed to marry with cousins and always add "bin/bint" in our name which mean "the son/daughter of". So, peoples can know to which families we belong. But, the phenomenon I see here kind of surprised me. I'm not trying to say that nonmoeslim didn't care about their families, but for reasons I said above, you know moeslim culture is really something if related to their families.

So, here it is when the ceremony took place I see there are a lot of royal families from another dinasty that i believe related to the fallen house of Greek royal that attended the funeral ceremony, even the royal families of Great Britain who still hold their crown attended the ceremony. But, I till today haven't found any moeslim royal families be it the one who still have their crown or not, attended the last Nizam of Hyderabad funeral ceremony, despite the ottoman families member married into Egyptian, Hashemite and other royal families. I found it weird, since this man despite already lost his crown, He is descend from the Great Ottoman Empire from his mother side & The Asafjahi dinasty from his father side, who considered as the richest dinasty at the times. Does anyone have any idea why this happen, or maybe have photos about Egyptian or Hashemite royal families who attended his funeral ceremony? But, luckily the late Nizam of Hyderabad got state funeral from the government to honour him, while sadly the last king of Greek didn't got any. I guess there is always silver lining in every events after all

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Thank you for the additional infos


Whew I didn't know this, he really is something first he married to the Egyptian Princess, then this. He also reportedly wanted to marry the last princess of Ottoman Empire, princess Durrushehvar but the princess chooses to marry into Asafjahi dinasty instead. He really is have a type like u said ?

So that's how it is. Do you guys have any idea why did he choose or able to live in Egypt? After what his families did to his Ex-wife the Egyptian princess?
I know that they have child together that make her half Egyptian Princess, but it's still weird for me they let him reside and even buried in Egypt. Even thought the Egyptian kingdom already fall at that times, I am confused why is it considered save for him & his families to reside there.

The Egyptian monarchy fell in the 1950s and it was Anwar Sadat who helped the Pahlavis when it came to the burial of the Shah. It had nothing to do with the Egyptian royals because they were deposed long before the Shah died. It was really because of Anwar Sadat and I don’t think the Pahlavis were particularly close to other Middle Eastern royals. The Shah could have lived longer if he had told people close to him about his illness but he didn’t.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

And speaking of Asafjahi dinasty, in January this year the last Nizam of Hyderabad & the Last king of Greek passed away. I see an interesting phenomenon here when the ceremony took place. Moeslim are known as peoples who maintain friendship and kinship, especially with our families be it close or distance families. We even allowed to marry with cousins and always add "bin/bint" in our name which mean "the son/daughter of". So, peoples can know to which families we belong. But, the phenomenon I see here kind of surprised me. I'm not trying to say that nonmoeslim didn't care about their families, but for reasons I said above, you know moeslim culture is really something if related to their families.

So, here it is when the ceremony took place I see there are a lot of royal families from another dinasty that i believe related to the fallen house of Greek royal that attended the funeral ceremony, even the royal families of Great Britain who still hold their crown attended the ceremony. But, I till today haven't found any moeslim royal families be it the one who still have their crown or not, attended the last Nizam of Hyderabad funeral ceremony, despite the ottoman families member married into Egyptian, Hashemite and other royal families. I found it weird, since this man despite already lost his crown, He is descend from the Great Ottoman Empire from his mother side & The Asafjahi dinasty from his father side, who considered as the richest dinasty at the times. Does anyone have any idea why this happen, or maybe have photos about Egyptian or Hashemite royal families who attended his funeral ceremony? But, luckily the late Nizam of Hyderabad got state funeral from the government to honour him, while sadly the last king of Greek didn't got any. I guess there is always silver lining in every events after all

The difference with the Nizams of Hyderabad is that I don’t believe there was any intermarriage with some of the Middle Eastern dynasties apart from the Ottoman dynasty. I also don’t think the Asafjahi dynasty maintained any close ties to some of the families they married into. The Hashemite dynasty never married into the Asafjahi dynasty. The Egyptian royals never married into the Asafjahi family.

The difference between the last Nizam and the last Greek King is that the last king of Greece was interrelated to many families (his sister is Queen Emeritus of Spain and his sister-in-law is Queen of Denmark). I’m sure there were some Indian royals there at the Nizams funeral.

 

[Jihan]

The Hashemite dynasty never married into the Asafjahi dynasty. The Egyptian royals never married into the Asafjahi family .

Thanks, what i mean is from his mother side the ottoman princess. His mother's half-brother has daughters who reportedly married into Egyptian, Hashemite and other royal families from what I've read, not to mentioned his other far cousins. From what I gather there was also the one who married into nonmoeslim royal families and if my memory served me right, it was the royal family of Brazil.

The difference between the last Nizam and the last Greek King is that the last king of Greece was interrelated to many families (his sister is Queen Emeritus of Spain and his sister-in-law is Queen of Denmark). I’m sure there were some Indian royals there at the Nizams funeral

Yeah, you're right. There's a lot of Indian royals especially from the same dinasty attending the ceremony, while the other one such as royal house
of jaipur etc, I haven't found their photos. Out of the Royal families of India, I feel like the house of Asaf Jah is probably the most "forgotton" one, despite being the wealthiest one a long time ago. The world indeed spin

 

[Jihan]

Who will be the next king of modern Iraq? I know their monarchy was abolished a long time ago, but even thought that was the case people who have blood with the fallen dinasty often become claimant to the throne. Since Sharif Ali bin al-Hussein the current claimant May Allah Ta'ala Rahmet him, has already leaving this world without heir, who is the next claimant to the throne then? Thank you very much

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Who will be the next king of modern Iraq? I know their monarchy was abolished a long time ago, but even thought that was the case people who have blood with the fallen dinasty often become claimant to the throne. Since Sharif Ali bin al-Hussein the current claimant May Allah Ta'ala Rahmet him, has already leaving this world without heir, who is the next claimant to the throne then? Thank you very much

There is an heir to the Iraqi throne Prince Ra’ad bin Zein who has sons.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Thanks, what i mean is from his mother side the ottoman princess. His mother's half-brother has daughters who reportedly married into Egyptian, Hashemite and other royal families from what I've read, not to mentioned his other far cousins. From what I gather there was also the one who married into nonmoeslim royal families and if my memory served me right, it was the royal family of Brazil.


Yeah, you're right. There's a lot of Indian royals especially from the same dinasty attending the ceremony, while the other one such as royal house
of jaipur etc, I haven't found their photos. Out of the Royal families of India, I feel like the house of Asaf Jah is probably the most "forgotton" one, despite being the wealthiest one a long time ago. The world indeed spin

I don’t think the last Nizam maintained close relations with his mother’s family from the Ottoman dynasty. The families are very big and I think some lost contact. Princess Fatima Cherine was the Princess who married into the former Imperial house of Orleans-Braganza, she has descendants but probably relations were not maintained with those family members. Mind you, for many years, the Ottoman royals could not come back to Turkey and were busy trying to make life in exile. The Nizams of Hyderabad aren’t forgotten, they are remembered for their great wealth and the legacy the left behind in Hyderabad but yes they aren’t talked about globally because the last Nizam lived an obscure life.

 

[Jihan]

There is an heir to the Iraqi throne Prince Ra’ad bin Zein who has sons.

Thanks, never heard of him before. his name even not mention when I search for who the next claimant is?
Speaking of the claimant to the throne. Why the claimant not comes from Jordanian royal instead, I mean they're related by blood too? Who is this prince Ra'ad, n why he can outrank current king of Jordanian in term of blood related? Again, thank you very much

 

[JR76]

Thanks, never heard of him before. his name even not mention when I search for who the next claimant is?

Speaking of the claimant to the throne. Why the claimant not comes from Jordanian royal instead, I mean they're related by blood too? Who is this prince Ra'ad, n why he can outrank current king of Jordanian in term of blood related? Again, thank you very much

Prince Ra'ad is the son of Prince Zeid bin Hussein, the younger brother of the first Hashemite kings of Iraq and Jordan. After his brother was made King of Iraq he became a member of that royal family and later the head of that family after the assassination of his relatives in 1958. The family now lives in Jordan and are included in most royal family celebrations.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Thanks, never heard of him before. his name even not mention when I search for who the next claimant is?
Speaking of the claimant to the throne. Why the claimant not comes from Jordanian royal instead, I mean they're related by blood too? Who is this prince Ra'ad, n why he can outrank current king of Jordanian in term of blood related? Again, thank you very much

The former Iraqi and Syrian throne was held by a branch of the Hashemite House. Jordan would have been much richer today if Iraq and Jordan had a union because Iraq has/had lots of oil. Plus the other claimant, Sharif Ali died last year and I don’t think he had children so he’s out leaving the other claimant, Ra’ad as the undisputed pretender. I don’t think he outranks the king of Jordan.

 

[Jihan]

Sorry for my stupid question but does anyone know why the eldest daughter of the late nizam of Hyderabad didn't get married? Even though she's a princess of the fallen dinasty I believe her hand is still valuable looking @ her late great grandmother pss Durrusehvar situation despite being a princess of fallen dinasty she still received many prestigious proposal from the future heir around the world. Well if we put aside personal preference where she probably doesn't want to get married, we can't deny that as someone who has great lineage she must be has at least 2/3 promising proposal from the ruling houses, but somehow I can't get this information anywhere. Thanks

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Sorry for my stupid question but does anyone know why the eldest daughter of the late nizam of Hyderabad didn't get married? Even though she's a princess of the fallen dinasty I believe her hand is still valuable looking @ her late great grandmother pss Durrusehvar situation despite being a princess of fallen dinasty she still received many prestigious proposal from the future heir around the world. Well if we put aside personal preference where she probably doesn't want to get married, we can't deny that as someone who has great lineage she must be has at least 2/3 promising proposal from the ruling houses, but somehow I can't get this information anywhere. Thanks

I don’t know, maybe she choose not to marry. The circumstances under which her grandmother married was different, the Ottoman family were in contact with the other ruling Muslim Middle Eastern and North African families and her father married her off so that she could taken care of and for and partly for money. Also the Middle Eastern dynasties mainly marry women from their country or occasionally other Gulf states.