Relationship of the Royal Family with The Duchess of Cornwall

[branchg]

So, roughly speaking, unless the Queen decides another way, Princess Beatrice would be before Princess Alexandra who is before the Duchess of Cornwall, who is ahead of Sophie Wessex.

This is getting confusing. (IMO... well, I won't go there.)

You are correct. Once they come of age, Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie would come before Princess Alexandra and the Princess Royal (in royal protocol) because they are closer to the succession of the throne in their own right as male-line granddaughters of the Sovereign.

In terms of official precedence, the York princesses already follow the Duchess of Cornwall for ladies in the UK, followed by the Countess of Wessex, then the Princess Royal, Zara Philips, Lady Chatto, Princess Alexandra and the wives of the Dukes of Kent and Gloucester and Princess Michael.

 

[branchg]

I assume so. It'd be hard to justify being placed behind Princess Alexandra but ahead of Princess Beatrice.

I agree, although it's possible the Queen will leave it as is. Such things remain in the Sovereign's will and the girls are very young.

 

[Elspeth]

You are correct. Once they come of age, Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie would come before Princess Alexandra and the Princess Royal (in royal protocol) because they are closer to the succession of the throne in their own right as male-line granddaughters of the Sovereign.

In terms of official precedence, the York princesses already follow the Duchess of Cornwall for ladies in the UK, followed by the Countess of Wessex, then the Princess Royal, Zara Philips, Lady Chatto, Princess Alexandra and the wives of the Dukes of Kent and Gloucester and Princess Michael.

Don't the Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent precede Princess Alexandra in the official precedence? The whole point is that women are supposed to take their husband's titles. Otherwise you'd have weird things like countesses who are daughters of dukes ranking higher than marchionesses who are daughters of earls or something equally weird.

 

[tiaraprin]

Gee, this conversation should go over to the Order of Precedence thread!! We have a new debate!!


When Beatrice and Eugenie are of age and are present at public functions, yes they have to preceed the Duchess of Cornwall as Princesses of the Blood. They will go before Princess Alexandra and the Princess Royal because their father is higher in the line of succession.

 

[branchg]

Don't the Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent precede Princess Alexandra in the official precedence? The whole point is that women are supposed to take their husband's titles. Otherwise you'd have weird things like countesses who are daughters of dukes ranking higher than marchionesses who are daughters of earls or something equally weird.

Yes, they do. Sorry about that!

 

[james]

I think that when Charles is King Camilla will be Queen no matter what has been said up until now. We were told that he had no plans to ever remarry and he did so I don't believe a word of this "Princess Consort" nonsense.

 

[Zonk]

Not to be negative and wish death on anyone...but I believe if and when Charles becomes King...the chances of a Queen Camilla (I can barely type the words) are silm. The women in her family tend not to live long..in addition, wasn't she a heavy smoker at one time? Plus, I agree with the consensus...Charles will never let his wife be slighted wth that Princess Consort business. Thats all smokes and mirrors!

 

[tiaraprin]

Charles will never let his wife be slighted wth that Princess Consort business. Thats all smokes and mirrors!

You got that right Zonk. It is his way or the highway!! People say Diana was selfish, but so is Charles, and many people have testified to it without having to quote the scandalmongers!!

 

[branchg]

I think it is inevitable that Camilla will be Queen Consort.

 

[Warren]

Keeping it Simple

I think it is inevitable that Camilla will be Queen Consort.

Yes, as has been pointed out on more than one occasion in these Forums, the denial of the Duchess of Cornwall's right to become Queen requires a specific Act of Parliament before the event. (It's hard to imagine the Parliament doing so afterwards!)

Otherwise, the moment Queen Elizabeth dies, Charles becomes King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland etc etc and Camilla becomes Queen. Quite apart from anyone's personal preferences as to the title she should bear, this is a simple fact.
.

 

[Georgia]

I think we have to remember that by law, Duchess of Cornwall is in fact The Princess of Wales. She and Charles choose not to use that title.
Just as when Charles is King he and Camilla may choose for her to be known as Princess Consort. She may well be by law Queen Camilla but when Charles is King he can have his wife called whatever he wants.
Lastly, does it really matter what she is called? She is his wife. She obviously makes him very happy. He, after all is our heir not Camilla.

 

[Frothy]

Was there any comment in these forums of Prince Harry's praise of Camilla, which was effusive and loving, and his statement that she had always been close to both him and William?

 

[Warren]

Was there any comment in these forums of Prince Harry's praise of Camilla, which was effusive and loving, and his statement that she had always been close to both him and William?

There was a curiously muted response in the Prince Harry thread. One member wrote that Harry's statement was "nothing short of a slap in the face to his mother's memory", and there were two posts in reply to this. Both stating that as Camilla obviously was making Charles happy, Harry sees this as a good thing and said so publicly. And that basically was it.

Considering Harry's statement was quite significant, and was the opposite to what many members had assumed his thoughts to have been at the time of the wedding, I was surprised there was so little comment in the Forums.

Warren

 

[tiaraprin]

I think we have to remember that by law, Duchess of Cornwall is in fact The Princess of Wales. She and Charles choose not to use that title.
Just as when Charles is King he and Camilla may choose for her to be known as Princess Consort. She may well be by law Queen Camilla but when Charles is King he can have his wife called whatever he wants.
Lastly, does it really matter what she is called? She is his wife. She obviously makes him very happy. He, after all is our heir not Camilla.

Yes, but she has plenty to reap being the wife of the heir and possible future king.

 

[ysbel]

Was there any comment in these forums of Prince Harry's praise of Camilla, which was effusive and loving, and his statement that she had always been close to both him and William?

I thought it was interesting because a lot of people expected them to hate Camilla.

I don't know if she's as effusive as Harry claims but after the stormy marriage of their parents, one would guess that they welcomed Camilla's stabilizing effect on Charles and the peace it brought to the family.

I think Charles was wise not letting his relationship with Camilla interfere with his relationship with his sons. As far as I know, he never mentioned Camilla to the boys or introduced her to them while he was married so they weren't bombarded with her presence while their father was married to their mother. I think when Camilla and the princes finally met, William and Harry were able to make their own judgments about Camilla independent from what they had heard.

 

[Incas]

There was a curiously muted response in the Prince Harry thread.

I got the feeling some people are disappointed precisely because his comments don't support their personal feelings.

 

[tiaraprin]

I got the feeling some people are disappointed precisely because his comments don't support their personal feelings.

Yes, I am disappointed that Harry does not echo my feelings about that woman. However, Harry has to deal with her; he has no choice. If Harry was sincere in his statements, then so be it. I can't control what he feels anymore than he can control mine. I wish Harry and William to be happy. I just pray they don't forget their mother (which I doubt they will).

 

[Alexandria]

There was a curiously muted response in the Prince Harry thread. One member wrote that Harry's statement was "nothing short of a slap in the face to his mother's memory", and there were two posts in reply to this. Both stating that as Camilla obviously was making Charles happy, Harry sees this as a good thing and said so publicly. And that basically was it.

Considering Harry's statement was quite significant, and was the opposite to what many members had assumed his thoughts to have been at the time of the wedding, I was surprised there was so little comment in the Forums.

Warren

I think that perhaps what made some members feel that Harry's comments were such a slap in the face were because the comments came from Harry rather than William. I saw his interview and remember hearing his comments about Camilla and were not too surprised by them. I think overall whatever happened between their mother and father they ultimately wanted each to be happy. Diana was happy in her final months -- even if the public was not particularly happy with her choice of Dodi al Fayed as someone to spend time with. And Charles is obviously happy with Camilla.

As an adult figure in their lives (not necessarily a maternal figure), Camilla seems like someone who is there for them if they need an ear but doesn't seem to smother them with affection or feelings. She lets them be but lets it also be known that she's there if they need someone to talk to.

I think had the comments about Camilla come from William there might've been a different reaction altogether. Some people might've argued that William was being diplomatic and had to say something nice about Camilla for the sake of the royal family's public image. But as the comments came from Harry, the one member of the Wales family who has always laid things out on the line, warts and all, it came off as quite true and sincere.

From all of the pictures that I have seen of William and Harry with Camilla, I have never doubted that they like her and get along with her. I don't necessarily think they love her, but I do think they appreciate the stability and happiness she brings to their father's lives and that is as much as you can hope for considering the rather turbulent time they had with their parent's acriminous and nasty battle and Diana confiding in William about how she felt about his father.

 

[ysbel]

I think had the comments about Camilla come from William there might've been a different reaction altogether. Some people might've argued that William was being diplomatic and had to say something nice about Camilla for the sake of the royal family's public image. But as the comments came from Harry, the one member of the Wales family who has always laid things out on the line, warts and all, it came off as quite true and sincere.

Ah Alexandria, you make a good point there. I hadn't thought of that. Harry always seemed the most unaffected from his parent's marriage. I think some people have such confidence and are so naturally happy that they can be truly unaffected from the personal troubles that are around them.

In a documentary awhile back on the British royal family, they discussed the sons of George V and Queen Mary. The Duke of Gloucester seemed curiously unaffected by the emotional tensions in that family even though his brothers were. One of the commentators mentioned that he must have had dead nerve endings. Bad situations simply didn't bother him.

 

[Frothy]

Ysabel, it wasn't that Harry said Camilla was effusive, it's that he was effusive about her. He said she was a 'wonderful woman' amongst other things. It is clear he speaks for his brother too, and confirms that he and Wills were always close to her.


It didn't surprise me and I wondered if it might change Tiaparin and co's mind about Camilla. I just figure the boys could see their parents were a mismatch. Charles had one affair, Diana at least three, two with men married to other women (Carling; the Pakistani doctor). I am sure nobody here condones adultery but the boys may have thought that their parents were better off divorced and with other spouses and thought that C. was the right girl for Charles. Just a theory.

I wish that they had worked through their problems and stayed married of course, as a Catholic I don't believe in remarriage.

 

[ysbel]

Frothy, I think once people make their mind up about someone, they generally don't change.

I also think its good to remember that whatever feelings and motives we project on the Royal family, their own feelings may be quite different. They are real human beings with good points and bad like everyone else. They're not just an image of whatever we think is good and right about the monarchy (or bad and disgusting as some think in the case of Camilla). We simply don't know them.

I think a longtime Royal watcher will eventually get surprised at what the
Royals say or do. Who would have thought the young Princess Anne then considered nasty and unfriendly and with problems with the press would have transformed into the hardworking and supportive Princess Royal she is today?

 

[Incas]

Frothy, if you are refering to the Pakistani doctor Hasnat Khan, he was not married at the time of his relationship with Diana. She was divorced by then and he is still single the last I heard about him. Diana was involve with Oliver Hoar, an art dealer who was married.

I'd expect Harry to be more affected by his parents' marital squables than William. Based on interviews given by both Charles and Diana, William would have at least had known a few years of happier times between them. From the day Harry was born, the parents were unhappy with each other and the tension only escalated. William was able to get away to boarding school and I think Harry saw more of the confrontations on day to day basis. In that regard, I agree with Alexandra, coming from Harry, his positive comments about Camilla carried more weight than if they had been from William.

 

[branchg]

Prince Harry, along with William, are adults living their own lives. Their mother passed on eight years ago and it's not surprising to me that Harry is on good terms with Camilla. I'm sure he wants his father to be happy and, after all, she has been a part of his life for many years now. It's clear Camilla hasn't tried to replace Diana in the lives of the princes and has been sensitive.

People are entitled to move on and be happy. Life is too short to stay stuck in the past.

 

[branchg]

I think we have to remember that by law, Duchess of Cornwall is in fact The Princess of Wales. She and Charles choose not to use that title.
Just as when Charles is King he and Camilla may choose for her to be known as Princess Consort. She may well be by law Queen Camilla but when Charles is King he can have his wife called whatever he wants.
Lastly, does it really matter what she is called? She is his wife. She obviously makes him very happy. He, after all is our heir not Camilla.

Not correct. Legally, Camilla is automatically Queen when Charles becomes King, unless legislation is passed by Parliament and the Commonwealth providing she will not have the rights and dignity of Queen Consort. Once this legislation passed, Charles could then issue letters patent creating Camilla Princess Consort (or whatever other titles he wishes). He cannot do it without Parliament's approval.

 

[ysbel]

Camilla could then opt to be called Duchess of Lancaster, couldn't she? That's a lesser title the Queen holds but does not use.

 

[Warren]

Camilla could then opt to be called Duchess of Lancaster, couldn't she? That's a lesser title the Queen holds but does not use.

Ysbel, I'm afraid you have opened another can of worms. The Lancaster dukedom/title has its own usage restrictions which are beyond me in their arcane detail, but we will no doubt hear about them soon enough from the experts!

W

 

[Gloriana]

I just pray they don't forget their mother (which I doubt they will).

Of course they won't! Who ''forgets'' their dead mother (and this is coming from someone who lost her own mother only a few weeks before the death of Diana)?

 

[Elspeth]

Not correct. Legally, Camilla is automatically Queen when Charles becomes King, unless legislation is passed by Parliament and the Commonwealth providing she will not have the rights and dignity of Queen Consort.

So she becomes Queen. If she and Charles decide to call her "princess consort" even though she's legally queen, who's going to stop them? She's Princess of Wales now but is choosing to be called something else,

Once this legislation passed, Charles could then issue letters patent creating Camilla Princess Consort (or whatever other titles he wishes). He cannot do it without Parliament's approval.

Well, and if he decides to do it anyway, is Parliament going to stick him in the Tower? If they decide that Queen Camilla is going to be known as Princess Consort, how, in practical termsw, will anybody be able to prevent it?

 

[iowabelle]

It didn't surprise me and I wondered if it might change Tiaparin and co's mind about Camilla. I just figure the boys could see their parents were a mismatch. Charles had one affair, Diana at least three, two with men married to other women (Carling; the Pakistani doctor). I am sure nobody here condones adultery but the boys may have thought that their parents were better off divorced and with other spouses and thought that C. was the right girl for Charles. Just a theory.

I'm not sure that Carling was an affair. I have the impression that he was infatuated with her and she enjoyed the attention.

But I'm pretty sure Oliver Hoare was and he was also married at the time. Hoare was the one who got all the prank phone calls that seem to have come from Diana. (I think Ken Wharfe mentioned that Hoare stayed over night at KP and set the fire alarms off one night by smoking a cigar right underneath one.)

 

[branchg]

Camilla could then opt to be called Duchess of Lancaster, couldn't she? That's a lesser title the Queen holds but does not use.

In theory, she could, but since the title is merged with the Crown as the Duke of Lancaster, it's hard to see how granting this style makes any sense. It would not be adequate compared to becoming a princess in her own right as the wife of the King.