Relationship of the Royal Family with The Duchess of Cornwall

[Idriel]

It'll look kind of awkward in that hairstyle of hers.

I can't wait to see that!

 

[Alicky]

I can wait.

 

[Warren]

Eyes up!

It'll look kind of awkward in that hairstyle of hers

I can't wait to see that

Well, you two can inspect her hair while the rest of us will have our eyes glued to the tiara!
.

 

[una]

Well, you two can inspect her hair while the rest of us will have our eyes glued to the tiara!
.

I hope it doesn't have feathers on it.

 

[tiaraprin]

The Feather Debate (Laughing)

I hope it doesn't have feathers on it.

That is too funny!!! Kudos to you!!

However, if there are feathers, maybe a footman will turn on a fan and they will blow off!! Can you imagine her spending the whole night holding her feathers and tiara?? Camilla and headgear have become funny since the service of blessing when she came out in that wind!!

 

[Idriel]

I hope it doesn't have feathers on it.

Una you made my day! You too Warren !

 

[ScottyFLL]

Camilla's precedence as wife of the Prince of Wales

I agree. The matter of Camilla's precedence and similar issues were all worked out and decided before she married Prince Charles. Camilla knew that by choosing to be known as Duchess of Cornwall, rather than Princess of Wales, she would have to take precedence after the princesses of the blood royal but before Sophie, Countess of Wessex.

I have not seen anywhere that Camilla, while she "has chosen to be called" Duchess of Cornwall, does not have the precedence of the Princess of Wales, which is a title and position only acquired by marriage to the Prince of Wales, and to my knowledge, no woman married to a Prince of Wales has been anything but. Indeed, I think the acquisition of that title is automatic upon marriage.

See Burke's Peerage for an article on precedence in the royal family. The article is out of date, as The Queen Mother is still mentioned. With The Queen Mother now departed, the Princess of Wales ("where such exists") takes precedence directly behind her husband, placing her as the first female behind the queen and above all other princes and princesses except for the Duke of Edinburgh.

British custom dictates that the wife derives her precedence from her husband. While Camilla is not "known as" the Princess of Wales, it seems to me that constitutionally she is indeed just that. I have never seen that she is not Princess of Wales; only that she "will be known as" the Duchess of Cornwall. This means also that she will be Queen on Charles' accession, whether or not she is "known as" Princess Consort in that event. To my knowledge, no morganatic marriage has occurred in the British monarchy (there were talks of it when Edward VIII wanted to marry Wallis Simpson).

The royals are not nearly so concerned about their titles as they are with their position (precedence) and the style and dignity of Royal Highness. Both Diana and Sarah Ferguson retained their titles, but not the style and dignity of Royal Highness.

 

[Alicky]

You're right. The DoC was just to keep the peace lol. She is still the PoW. A good first post BTW!

 

[branchg]

I have not seen anywhere that Camilla, while she "has chosen to be called" Duchess of Cornwall, does not have the precedence of the Princess of Wales, which is a title and position only acquired by marriage to the Prince of Wales, and to my knowledge, no woman married to a Prince of Wales has been anything but. Indeed, I think the acquisition of that title is automatic upon marriage.

See Burke's Peerage for an article on precedence in the royal family. The article is out of date, as The Queen Mother is still mentioned. With The Queen Mother now departed, the Princess of Wales ("where such exists") takes precedence directly behind her husband, placing her as the first female behind the queen and above all other princes and princesses except for the Duke of Edinburgh.

British custom dictates that the wife derives her precedence from her husband. While Camilla is not "known as" the Princess of Wales, it seems to me that constitutionally she is indeed just that. I have never seen that she is not Princess of Wales; only that she "will be known as" the Duchess of Cornwall. This means also that she will be Queen on Charles' accession, whether or not she is "known as" Princess Consort in that event. To my knowledge, no morganatic marriage has occurred in the British monarchy (there were talks of it when Edward VIII wanted to marry Wallis Simpson).

The royals are not nearly so concerned about their titles as they are with their position (precedence) and the style and dignity of Royal Highness. Both Diana and Sarah Ferguson retained their titles, but not the style and dignity of Royal Highness.

As has been explained in other threads, Camilla is HRH the Princess of Wales, but choosing to be styled as Duchess of Cornwall. Constitutionally and officially, she retains the precedence of a Princess of Wales as the wife of Prince Charles, which means directly after the Queen.

However, when it comes to court precedence, determined solely by the will of the Sovereign for royal, but not state events, Camilla holds precedence after the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra, but before the wives of the princes of the blood royal.

With regard to Wallis Simpson, in fact, George VI issued letters patent making the Duke's marriage morganatic, by denying Wallis her right under British common law to share her husband's rank of HRH Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor. Instead, she held the rank of a duchess with the style "Her Grace". As fount of honour, the King denied Wallis royal rank as the wife of a prince of the UK.

 

[Duchess]

For me i'm still not sure about the Queen and the Duchess of Cornwall.Before the wedding we often thought that The Queen did not like the Duchess but now after the Wedding,the Queen already allows the Duchess to appear together with the Royal Family on official events like Trooping the Colour,the Order of the Garter,Royal Ascot or the recently 60th anniversary of the end of World War the Second.But it also might be that the Queen allows but it does not mean that she likes the Duchess.
I know that the Queen really loves Prince Charles much.And i think that Prince Charles insists the Queen to allow the Duchess to appear together with the Royal Family.

it's hard to say how HM feels about the Duchess personally but I think she feels it's her duty to allow the Duchess to appear with the RF at official events as she is the wife of her heir.

 

[Georgia]

Thanks Branchg, thats the best explination of the situation i have read. I didn't think George VI had issued Letters Patent regarding Wallis?

Why do you think Sarah never received the Queen's Order?

 

[Duchess]

You are right. Everyone curstsies to the Queen (and her mother when she was alive), but that's about it. No one would expect a curtsey today from another member of the family.

In the past, someone who is not HRH (Lady Sarah Chatto) would be expected to curtsey to HRH Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, according to royal protocol. In earlier reigns, these things were strictly followed, but the Queen did away with the practice during the 1960's.

The newspapers are just stirring up the pot with made-up nonsense.

not sure how accurate but i've read in several books that when Princess Margaret was alive she fully expected women to curtsey and men to bow to her. she felt it was her birth right to be treated as a Princess and sister to the Queen.

 

[branchg]

it's hard to say how HM feels about the Duchess personally but I think she feels it's her duty to allow the Duchess to appear with the RF at official events as she is the wife of her heir.

Camilla is not a Duchess, she's a princess of the UK as the wife of Prince Charles. The Queen accepted Camilla into the family and she has been treated accordingly as the wife of the heir to the throne.

 

[branchg]

Thanks Branchg, thats the best explination of the situation i have read. I didn't think George VI had issued Letters Patent regarding Wallis?

Why do you think Sarah never received the Queen's Order?

Yes, George VI issued letters patent in 1937 providing that HRH Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor would continue to be a Royal Highness, while specifically denying the rank to his wife and children, if any.

I have no idea why Sarah, Duchess of York did not receive the Royal Family Order of the Queen while married. It is a personal honour within the gift of the Sovereign. Perhaps because Sarah undertook few public duties?

 

[branchg]

not sure how accurate but i've read in several books that when Princess Margaret was alive she fully expected women to curtsey and men to bow to her. she felt it was her birth right to be treated as a Princess and sister to the Queen.

It was reported that Princess Margaret required her personal friends to curtsey and/or bow to her as a Royal Highness and observe protocol at all times. This was her choice, of course, but I think this was a bit unusual for personal friends to strictly follow protocol in the 60's and 70's.

I think usually most royals do not require such formalities from friends, especially in private.

 

[marezdote]

Camilla is not a Duchess, she's a princess of the UK as the wife of Prince Charles.

While it is true that one of the titles she holds is Princess she is also a Duchess.

 

[branchg]

While it is true that one of the titles she holds is Princess she is also a Duchess.

This is correct. What I meant to point out is that her primary dignity is a Royal Highness and princess of the UK, even though she is styled as Duchess of Cornwall. Camilla shares all of Charles' titles and styles, including Duchess of Cornwall in England and Duchess of Rothesay in Scotland.

 

[ElisaR]

Again about titles.

From the Court Circular, 4 August 2005.
The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay and The Duchess of Rothesay this morning visited the Royal National Lifeboat Institution Station at Thurso and were received by Her Majesty's Lord-Lieutenant of Caithness (Miss Anne Dunnett).

If he is The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay, why isn't she Princess Charles, Duchess of Rothesay?

 

[Incas]

Camilla is The Princess of Wales, Dochess of Rothesay. I think someone else have commented in another thread that only if Prince Charles does not have any other title, ie the Prince of Wales, then Camilla would have become Princess Charles. Such is the case with Princess Michael. Since Prince Charles have a string of other titles, Camilla would be know as the Princess of Wales, and Duchess of Rothesay and etc.

 

[ElisaR]

I remember that thread. But here Charles is called The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay, not simply The Duke of Rothesay. I was wondering why this doesn't influence Camilla's title.

 

[Oppie]

I think it is to avoid confusion. Usually when they refer to the Duke of Rothesay they add either Prince Charles or what the Prince of Wales is called in Scotland. I guess most people don't realize he has other titles besides Prince of Wales.

 

[tiaraprin]

Again about titles.

From the Court Circular, 4 August 2005.
The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay and The Duchess of Rothesay this morning visited the Royal National Lifeboat Institution Station at Thurso and were received by Her Majesty's Lord-Lieutenant of Caithness (Miss Anne Dunnett).

If he is The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay, why isn't she Princess Charles, Duchess of Rothesay?

I was reading the current issue of Majesty magazine, and it says that Camilla's title of Duchess of Cornwall and her place in the order of precedence are due to Camilla's choice to be known as Duchess of Cornwall instead of Princess of Wales. Being ranked 4th in the pecking order is due to being officially known and titled Duchess of Cornwall which places her behind The Princess Royal and The Princess Alexandra (both Princesses of the blood). The magazine goes on to say that if Camilla was officially known and titled as Princess of Wales, she would have been number 2 in the pecking order behind Her Majesty the Queen.

 

[ElisaR]

Thank you.

 

[tiaraprin]

Not a problem Elisa, just typing what I read

 

[branchg]

Again about titles.
If he is The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay, why isn't she Princess Charles, Duchess of Rothesay?

When in Scotland, his style and title is HRH The Duke of Rothesay in the Scottish peerage as the heir to the throne. As a son of the Sovereign, who holds the Crown's fount of honour, he is also HRH The Prince Charles, so the style is correct as his primary dignity comes first, followed by his dukedom when in Scotland.

Camilla is not "Princess Charles" in Scotland since she reflects her husband's rank as HRH the Duchess of Rothesay and does hold the style of "Princess Charles" in the UK. Instead, Camilla reflects her husband's individual styles and titles in each part of the Kingdom, with the exception of Princess of Wales, as she has declined to use this title.

 

[branchg]

I was reading the current issue of Majesty magazine, and it says that Camilla's title of Duchess of Cornwall and her place in the order of precedence are due to Camilla's choice to be known as Duchess of Cornwall instead of Princess of Wales. Being ranked 4th in the pecking order is due to being officially known and titled Duchess of Cornwall which places her behind The Princess Royal and The Princess Alexandra (both Princesses of the blood). The magazine goes on to say that if Camilla was officially known and titled as Princess of Wales, she would have been number 2 in the pecking order behind Her Majesty the Queen.

This is correct and appropriate. However, for state or public events, Camilla holds precedence based on her husband's place in the line of succession and is after the Queen in the ranking of ladies in the Kingdom.

Her style and title of Duchess of Cornwall places her behind two (adult) princesses of the blood for royal occasions since she is choosing not to assume her rank as Princess of Wales. So in terms of family protocol, she has taken a step down.

 

[Panther2000]

I hope it doesn't have feathers on it.

I second that motion

 

[florawindsor]

This is correct and appropriate. However, for state or public events, Camilla holds precedence based on her husband's place in the line of succession and is after the Queen in the ranking of ladies in the Kingdom.

Her style and title of Duchess of Cornwall places her behind two (adult) princesses of the blood for royal occasions since she is choosing not to assume her rank as Princess of Wales. So in terms of family protocol, she has taken a step down.

does this mean when Princess Beatrice and Eugenie come of age, she(DoC) will be placed behind them?

 

[Elspeth]

I assume so. It'd be hard to justify being placed behind Princess Alexandra but ahead of Princess Beatrice.

 

[iowabelle]

So, roughly speaking, unless the Queen decides another way, Princess Beatrice would be before Princess Alexandra who is before the Duchess of Cornwall, who is ahead of Sophie Wessex.

This is getting confusing. (IMO... well, I won't go there.)