Princess Madeleine & Family Moving to Florida: August 2018

[Tatiana Maria]

There are a couple of sizable problems with long lines of succession.

1. The problem with adults who carry out no royal duties being in the line of succession: Someone who has never carried out royal duties cannot be expected to be a competent monarch. Even individuals like Prince Daniel who come into royal families as consorts embark on months of prior preparation.

2. The problem with individuals who are not princesses or princes being in the line of succession: It is contradictory to ensure that someone would automatically be queen or king if something happened, but deny them the even lower role of princess or prince.

To be fair, the chance that someone who's not an HRH or working royal will succeed to the throne is, at this point, slim to none. Getting one of the Phillipses on the the throne (the first people without the HRH/royal duties who aren't minors) would require some extreme tragedy, meaning it probably won't happen

Thank you for the thoughtful reply!

The probability would be a question of the monarchy's limits on working royals, titles, and succession rights. Felipe de Marichalar is fourth in line to the throne, with only the king and his children ahead of him and his mother. In my opinion:

When the chances that someone will succeed to the throne are actually none, preserving their place in the line of succession is meaningless and uselessly confusing.

When there is a slim chance of someone succeeding to the throne as an adult, but they are missing the experience with royal duties which serving as monarch requires, preserving their place in the line of succession is a gamble for the monarchy.

A more suitable approach to avoiding extinction of a monarchy is legislation requiring the appointment of a new monarch (someone who meets the requirements of the position) if there is no successor, as for example in the Norwegian Constitution:

Article 48
If the royal line has died out, and no successor to the throne has been designated, then a new Queen or King shall be chosen by the Storting.​

The issue I could see with that is people saying "To heck with it, if we have to choose a new monarch we might as well just get rid of the thing entirely". In a King Ralph scenario, the point is to show continuity and the strength of the institution. If all the Bernadottes of the Norweigan RF suddenly disappeared for whatever reason, I have a feeling their respective countries would choose to go full on republic rather then conduct a search for a new monarch

A very valid point. On the other hand, the public's opinion may be similarly negative if they are forced to accept as their new monarch (owing to the line of succession) a non-royal stranger of whose competencies and background they have no idea.

The more likely scenario, however, is that the number of heirs would drop gradually rather than suddenly (see the example of what occurred in the mid-twentieth century under Kings Gustaf V and Gustaf VI Adolf). This would provide the royal family and the government with some time to choose an heir from among the monarch's relatives, ensure they receive long-term preparation, and win the public's blessing.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I’m not sure why “choosing an heir from among the monarch’s relatives” is an answer when there is a line of succession and the next person in line could be given lessons or instruction as needed.
As said earlier, if a country is going to just pick their next King (or Queen) they’d probably just abandon a monarchy altogether.
I guess I don’t understand why Madeline remaining in the line of succession is such an issue. And her children until/unless they don’t attend school in Sweden or follow whatever rules are in place.
I hope they enjoy their time in Florida, I’m sure there will be fewer paparazzi.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I’m not sure why “choosing an heir from among the monarch’s relatives” is an answer when there is a line of succession and the next person in line could be given lessons or instruction as needed.
As said earlier, if a country is going to just pick their next King (or Queen) they’d probably just abandon a monarchy altogether.

My apologies, my last post was confusingly put.

If the number of persons in line to the throne dropped gradually, a longer line of succession would indeed be preferable since the heir would be designated automatically and available to receive instruction. However, a shorter line of succession in this case would not mean the extinction of the monarchy, provided that the constitution requires the parliament to choose an heir.

If the number of persons in line to the throne dropped suddenly (a tragedy or a wave of exclusions from the line of succession), a longer line of succession would be excessively hazardous. Someone far down in the line of succession is most likely unprepared (a monarch who comes unexpectedly to the throne after a tragedy or a wave of abdications requires considerable skills), could be a foreigner who does not speak the language, and perhaps has a past that is unacceptable to the public.

Hence, a shorter line of succession, and a requirement to designate an (acceptable) heir if none remain, is the safer system in my eyes.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

My apologies, my last post was confusingly put.

If the number of persons in line to the throne dropped gradually, a longer line of succession would indeed be preferable since the heir would be designated automatically and available to receive instruction. However, a shorter line of succession in this case would not mean the extinction of the monarchy, provided that the constitution requires the parliament to choose an heir.

If the number of persons in line to the throne dropped suddenly (a tragedy or a wave of exclusions from the line of succession), a longer line of succession would be excessively hazardous. Someone far down in the line of succession is most likely unprepared (a monarch who comes unexpectedly to the throne after a tragedy or a wave of abdications requires considerable skills), could be a foreigner who does not speak the language, and perhaps has a past that is unacceptable to the public.

Hence, a shorter line of succession, and a requirement to designate an (acceptable) heir if none remain, is the safer system in my eyes.

But that is not the case at all with the SRF--Madeleine certainly speaks Swedish and understands protocol, etc. So there is no reason to remover her. And if her children end up not growing up in Sweden they will be excluded from the line of succession per their rules.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

But that is not the case at all with the SRF--Madeleine certainly speaks Swedish and understands protocol, etc. So there is no reason to remover her. And if her children end up not growing up in Sweden they will be excluded from the line of succession per their rules.

Agreed, but my posts were in answer to the discussion regarding long and unlimited lines of succession.

 

[LadyFinn]

Princess Madeleine with family has now moved into their new residence in Florida.
However, the court is secretive about their new house and doesn't want to leave any information about this.
- We don't give any further information regarding the princess family's housing in Florida, said Johan Tegel, information officer of the royal court.
The court also doesn't want to provide any information about how princess Madeleine's schedule will look after the move.
- When Princess Madeleine performs official missions, they are announced in advance on kungahuset.se, writes Johan Tegel.
Hovets framtidsbesked om Madeleine efter USA-flytten _ Hänt.se

 

[Mbruno]

As said earlier, if a country is going to just pick their next King (or Queen) they’d probably just abandon a monarchy altogether.

Isn't that what the parliament of England did though in 1701 with the Act of Settlement ? Based on male-preference primogeniture alone, George I was only 56th in line when he ascended the throne in 1714.


In the case of Sweden, it is interesting that the previous Instrument of Government of 1809 included an explicit requirement that the Swedish parliament should choose a new king if the line of succession became extinct. By contrast, the new Instrument of Government of 1974 only says that, in case there is no successor, parliament must appoint a regent "until further notice". Some people interpret this change as a sign that Sweden would probably move to become a republic if there were no living descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf , but that is not necessarily the case.


The only practical consequence really is that, in order to pick a new king and establish a new order of succession, parliament would now have to pass a new Act of Succession to replace the previous one and the special procedure to amend fundamental laws would apply, i.e. two identical resolutions of the Riksdag would be required with a general election being held in between, and a popular referendum could potentially take place on the same day of the general election if one third of the MPs voted in favor of a motion to call it. Having said that, if parliament alternatively chose to go for a republic, the same procedure would have to be followed as the abolition of the monarchy would require an amendment to the Instrument of Government itself.


In other words, neither the installation of a new dynasty, nor the abolition of the monarchy could happen right away and would probably take a few years as the practice in Sweden is to avoid calling an anticipated, extraordinary general election when a constitutional amendment resolution is being held in abeyance.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Isn't that what the parliament of England did though in 1701 with the Act of Settlement ? Based on male-preference primogeniture alone, George I was only 56th in line when he ascended the throne in 1714.

Republics or democracies weren't exactly common in 1701 though. Times have changed drastically

 

[LadyFinn]

Svensk Damtidning writes in this week's issue, that Madeleine and Chris moved to Miami. They have rented a villa at so called "gated community" where there are guards to watch that unauthorized persons can't get to the area. Because Damtidning recpects that Madeleine and Chris want to live freely, they don't publish the area or address of the villa. The family has access to the tennis court and a pool.
Madeleine will be working for World Childhood Foundation USA, and the family will have a nanny to help. Åsa Andreasson Åkerström from Childhood says that princess Madeleine has now come closer and has a bigger chance to attend at working meetings, project visits and events.
Damtidning writes that no one knows when the family moves again. Perhaps they will stay in Miami for good. There is a 45 minute drive from Miami to the swedish school in Fort Lauderdale.
Image Upper.com - Free Image Hosting - View Image

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Many of the upscale subdivisions in Florida are gated. In some ways, Florida is like a third world country.

 

[LadyFinn]

Aftonbladet's royal expert Jenny Alexandersson, Aftonbladet's reporter Maria Bjaring and Sara Ericsson, who writes to Kungliga Magasinet, discussed about Madeleine's move at Aftonbladet's web podcast "Kungligt med Jenny Alexandersson". Their watchers can send questions to them and someone had asked why Madeleine doesn't publish photos at her Instagram anymore, the latest is from 3rd August.

Sara Ericsson says that it is kind of a mystery, but maybe Madeleine has a lot to do with this move. But we all are waiting for a posting, and Ericsson would like to have a personal explanation why they decided to move. Jenny Alexandersson says that then it would have been much easier for people to understand this move, because now there are speculations about why, how and where they are living. Bjaring points out that Madeleine has used her social media as a way to communicate, why she hasn't done that now with this move, if it causes so much speculations? Alexandersson says that she thinks that this is Madeleine's way to handle things, she is quiet and lets everything settle down, instead of being open. She would win so much by giving a short explanation, there is also the order of succession which this is about. How will it be for the children, if they don't move back home to Sweden? Are they thinking about moving back home, we don't know that. Bjaring says that she was surprised with Florida, yes, they have friends there... Alexandersson says that it was unexpected, most people have been thinking that they would move back to Sweden. To move to London was a way to come closer to Sweden and the court said that she would work more in Sweden and there was also talk about that they would spend more time in Sweden, in Stockholm at the Royal Mews. Bjaring says that we want to have an explanation, otherwise the speculations will continue.
Mysteriet med Maddes frånvaro _ Aftonbladet

 

[Somebody]

But that is not the case at all with the SRF--Madeleine certainly speaks Swedish and understands protocol, etc. So there is no reason to remover her. And if her children end up not growing up in Sweden they will be excluded from the line of succession per their rules.

Madeleine's children are clearly not growing up in Sweden but so fsr are still in the line of succession. Children's first years are the most formative, so I don't understand why they apparently don't count in the court's interpretation (and why is it eve the court that interprets the rules about them, shouldn't that be fone by someone who doesn't have a personal interest in the matter?).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Madeleine's children are clearly not growing up in Sweden but so fsr are still in the line of succession. Children's first years are the most formative, so I don't understand why they apparently don't count in the court's interpretation

In case one of Princess Madeleine's children unexpectedly succeed to the throne before they were of school age, the constitution obliges the Riksdag to appoint an adult Swede as the regent. By the time that Queen Leonore turned 18 and began to carry out her royal duties, she would have spent a minimum of eleven years being raised in Sweden and attending Swedish schools.

(and why is it eve the court that interprets the rules about them, shouldn't that be fone by someone who doesn't have a personal interest in the matter?).

I think the Swedish politicians have scarcely any interest in matters of the monarchy, except for its funding.

 

[LadyFinn]

Madeleine's children are clearly not growing up in Sweden but so fsr are still in the line of succession. Children's first years are the most formative, so I don't understand why they apparently don't count in the court's interpretation (and why is it eve the court that interprets the rules about them, shouldn't that be fone by someone who doesn't have a personal interest in the matter?).

I am sure that the court doesn't interpret the rules alone, but when Madeleine started to date Chris and got married with him, the former Marshal of the Realm Svante Lindqvist and the king's solicitor Axel Calissendorff spoke with the best specialists of these matters in Sweden about the status of Madeleine's future children and what they have to do to keep themselves in the Order of Succession.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The press release from the royal court declared "Princess Madeleine and Mr. Christopher O'Neill are planning to move to Florida in the United States this autumn for some time to come."
Has the press tried to speculate in what year Madeleine's family's stay in Florida would end?

 

[LadyFinn]

Expressen has found out where Madeleine and family live, but they don't publish photos of the new house.

Madde and family's happiness in the new luxury house
The new house is more than twice the size of the West Palm Beach villa: over 750 square meters with seven bedrooms and seven bathrooms.
The photos from the last time the house was for sale show large bright rooms, a newly renovated kitchen with lavish options and bathrooms where you can shower with a view of the palms. Outside the windows are high palm trees. In the advertisement, the broker describes an exclusive accommodation that combines the house's charming Florida style with all the desired modernities and luxury.
High ceilings, wood floors and marble, wine cellar and fireplace. On another site, the big bedroom is described as a dream for those who appreciate interior design and want a walk-in closet.
Even the more than 3,000 square meters' property is distinguished. There is both a common pool and hot tub, plenty of space for sun loungers and dinner table and a lawn with exotic fruit trees like mango, lime, avocado and papaya.
When the house was sold two years ago, it was $ 2.8 million, equivalent to SEK 25 million. When it was released for sale again, the owner wanted even more. In April this year, the requested price was $ 3.3 million, equivalent to almost SEK 30 million. At the same time, it was advertised for rent - for SEK 178,000 a month. But since last July, the house is no longer listed as for sale, according to the information of the broker, nor is it available for sale.
Chris O'Neill's summerhouse in West Palm Beach was handed over to the new owners at the end of the summer. Chris received more than SEK 32 million - almost 15 million more than when he bought the house in 2008 - but still several million less than he requested when trying to sell it a couple of years ago.
During the interview in New York, Madeleine told how much she missed the family - but at the same time described her new life in Florida as a new adventure:
- It's good luck that there are phones and that we can FaceTime and keep each other up to date. Obviously I miss family and friends and Sweden very much. But this is an exciting adventure right now.
According to Margareta Thorgren, the princess couple currently have no plans to move home to Sweden again:
- No, not to my knowledge, they have moved to the United States, to Florida, and have their living there now. Then they will come home on different occasions. But right now their home is in Florida.
But Princess Madeleine longs for home to Sweden?
- There are strong connections to Sweden, and it is natural to have a lot of contacts in Sweden. Otherwise, I have no comments from the court about homesickness. Now the family lives in the United States, and the family likes to have it as their home place.
Madde och familjens lycka i nya lyxhuset

New details of Madeleine's luxury life in Florida
The Princess's new luxury existence in Florida has been charted. Now more and more details about her exclusive accommodation are coming.
Madeleine and Chris live in an unimaginable abundance.
Nya detaljerna om Madeleines lyxliv i Florida _ Stoppa Pressarna

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Thanks for the update, LadyFinn.
It does seem that Madeleine and her family are living the life of our dreams in Florida; indeed! I take it that Leonore and Nicholas (as well as Adrienne eventually) will all go to school in Florida since it seems that they don't plan to move back to Sweden at any time soon.

 

[LadyFinn]

After the move to the US, Princess Madeleine's representation for the royal family was almost non-existent. Now the court tells about her plans for 2019.
"Princess Madeleine with family has returned to her home in the United States. Right now there are no official program items planned for Princess Madeleine”, writes the court's information officer Johan Tegel to Hänt in an e-mail.
Johan Tegel further explains that Princess Madeleine will focus on her already begun work with organization World Childhood Foundation. For several years she worked at the organization's office in New York.
"From the US, Princess continues to focus on the World Childhood Foundation's activities", writes Johan Tegel to Hänt.
Hovet_ Därför arbetar inte prinsessan Madeleine i Sverige _ Hänt.se

 

[Lyonnaise]

On one hand, I'm completely fine with her living in the U.S. and not doing any engagements...as long as she doesn't do any of the fun ones (i.e. like she did last year...didn't attend banquets or the Nobel festivities.)

On the other hand, I adore her and I miss her, and as great as the other three women are, there's a definite spark missing for me when Madeleine's not around. It was so nice seeing her at Silvia's birthday.

I do hope she'll have more of a program for the latter part of the year, though (selfishly just in time for the Nobel Prizes!)

 

[Somebody]

So, the only official activity Madeleine (and Chris) attended was the queen's birthdsy which we may consider a public family event (next to the private family event they also had). So, what would be the reason for the SRF not to announce that Madeleine will no longer carry out official activities for the royal family but will continue to attend family events (and events related to her work at Childhood) as that is what seems to happening?!

 

[LadyFinn]

Stoppa pressarna's article about Madeleine and Chris's lunch at Hotel Diplomat when they were in Stockholm. According to an eyewitness the atmosphere was not happy. Stoppa pressarna has tried to contact Margareta Thorgren.
Madeleines kris-lunch med Chris på hotellet

 

[Sweden1989]

I know this is a long shot here but I suppose it couldn't hurt to ask even though I feel ridiculous to ask. My kid sister like the Miami, I'm assuming it's a palm tree hat, that Madeleine was seen wearing when the family went biking in some park in Miami. My kid sister really likes it. Does anyone happen to know what kind it is or where one can get one you know online? Because I don't know.



Shot in the dark I know. But her birthday is is soon and it's the one thing she asked for. Maybe someone would be nice enough to help a 10 year old out? Thanks guys.

 

[LadyFinn]

Madeleine's and Chris's house for sale - may be forced to move
Princess Madeleine, Chris and the kids can be forced to move again - less than a year after they moved into their rented villa in Florida.
The 700 square meter house is for sale.
In the turn of July – August last year, Princess Madeleine and her family moved into an eight-room house in a leafy residential area in Miami, Florida.
Madeleine, Chris and children Leonore, Nicolas and Adrienne quickly found themselves in the nearly 700-square-meter house with the 3,400-square-meter plot - for an advertised rental of the equivalent of SEK 178,000 a month.
"We are very happy, the children are very happy in their new schools and it works great", said Princess Madeleine to Expressen in early October last year.
But now the family who have lived in at least four places - New York, London, Stockholm and Florida - can be forced to move again. Their rented house has been on sale for some weeks at a Florida broker.
The court doesn't want to confirm the information and doesn't say whether the family is searching for a new home.
- The court doesn't provide any information about the couple's private accommodation in the United States, says Margareta Thorgren.
The desired sales price is equivalent to nearly SEK 29 million. For this price, the buyer receives a dining and living room, seven bedrooms and seven bathrooms. The house has a top-modern kitchen, wine cellar and pool.
Palm trees grow in the garden and exotic fruit trees like avocados, pomegranate, lime and papaya grow. The broker describes the house as "a beauty" - and the brokerage pictures show large bright rooms, newly renovated kitchen with lavish equipment, high ceilings and floors in wood and marble.
The villa has been sold twice in recent years. In 2016, it was equivalent to nearly SEK 26 million and in 2012 the sales price was equivalent to SEK 20 million.
Before the family moved in, Chris last summer sold his 309 square-foot summer house in West Palm Beach, Florida, for the equivalent of SEK 32.5 million.
According to the court, Madeleine and Chris have their home base in Florida.
- They are moving to Florida because it is a good starting point for Chris's business and the children are still in preschool age ... Right now their home base is Florida, Margareta Thorgren has previously said.
Madeleines och Chris hyrda hus i Florida ska säljas. Pris_ 29 miljoner kronor

 

[LadyFinn]

Also in German maedia
Madeleine von Schweden_ Schon wieder Umzug_ Ihre Luxus-Villa wird verkauft _ BUNTE.de

The house has been on sale at the broker's website for 20 days. Maybe Madeleine and Chris hope to rent the house from the new owner too or maybe they will buy it, since the house isn't empty at the photos at the broker's website.
Or maybe they have planned something else, which the court tells later this summer.

 

[LadyFinn]

Madeleine, Chris and the kids - Leonore, Nicolas and Adrienne - moved into the 700-square-meter villa in Florida last summer.
The villa, which the family rent, is an eight-room villa with a 3,400-square-meter garden in Miami. But soon the family may be forced to move. The house has been out for sale for some weeks.
The court has not wanted to comment on Madeleine's and Chris's housing situation. Margareta Thorgren says:
- When it comes to the princess couple's accommodation, it is a private matter that the court doesn't comment on. Right now, the couple has their permanent residence in Florida. They have lived there for almost a year.
At the same time, Margareta Thorgren says that Madeleine and Chris have no plans to move.
During the holiday, the couple visits Sweden, they have access to an apartment at the Royal Mews.
- Right now there are no plans to move, but when they are home in Sweden they have access to an apartment at the Royal Mews, says Margareta Thorgren.
The family will spend some time on Öland, for the traditional summer celebration of the King and Silvia at Solliden, Crown Princess Victoria, Prince Daniel, Princess Sofia and Prince Carl Philip with families.
- The entire royal family is on Öland in connection with the Crown Princess's birthday, says Margareta Thorgren.
But how they will spend the rest of the holiday is unclear.
- Nothing we comment on more than that they value being together throughout the family and that they enjoy doing activities with the children. They appreciate Swedish nature.
Prinsessan Madeleines semesterplaner med Chris och barnen

 

[LadyFinn]

Earlier this summer, the news came that the 700-square meter villa in Miami that Princess Madeleine and her husband Chris O'Neill had rented last year had been put up for sale. Something that made many wonder about the family's plans this fall: Was Madeleine thinking of moving back home?
- Princess Madeleine and her family are living in Florida right now, says Margareta Thorgren to Svensk Damtidning
Is it about a time-limited period?
- No, there is no time limit for this. The princess and her family are now established in Florida, they moved there last August and will have their living there in the future as well.
Madeleine will be in Sweden in the end of September, she attends at Gothenburg Book Fair to speak about the book "Stella och hemligheten". On Friday, September 27 at 11am, Madeleine Bernadotte will be on stage K2 in her brand new role as author, and alongside her will have her co-author Marie Oskarsson, publisher Ulrika Caperius, World Childhood Foundation's Secretary General Paula Guillet de Monthoux and child psychologist Anna Norlén.
Besked från hovet – avslöjar Madeleines framtidsplaner _ Svensk Damtidning

 

[Tatiana Maria]

- Princess Madeleine and her family are living in Florida right now, says Margareta Thorgren to Svensk Damtidning
Is it about a time-limited period?
- No, there is no time limit for this. The princess and her family are now established in Florida, they moved there last August and will have their living there in the future as well.

Does Margareta Thorgren's choice of words in Swedish connote that the couple has decided to remain in Florida permanently, or only that they do not have concrete plans to return to Sweden?

If the first, can we expect an announcement in regard to how the family's titles, succession rights, public engagements, funding from the apanage, etc. will be handled in the future?

 

[MARG]

That is a very good question. It seems Chris's business affairs that could not be handled in wilds of Stockholm, Sweden, necessitating a move to London, a prominent European business centre and are now easily handled in the bustling business metropolis of Miami Florida.

 

[JR76]

Does Margareta Thorgren's choice of words in Swedish connote that the couple has decided to remain in Florida permanently, or only that they do not have concrete plans to return to Sweden?

If the first, can we expect an announcement in regard to how the family's titles, succession rights, public engagements, funding from the apanage, etc. will be handled in the future?

It does sound like they have no plans about leaving Miami. The use of "framöver" further stresses Margareta Thorgren's words about their stay having no set time limit.
Regarding public engagements and appanage there's not much need to clarify anything. Princess Madeleine will probably go on as she does now with the occasional appearance for which she gets reimbursement from the appanage.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

That is a very good question. It seems Chris's business affairs that could not be handled in wilds of Stockholm, Sweden, necessitating a move to London, a prominent European business centre and are now easily handled in the busthigh business metropolis of Miami Florida.

Yes, there is dissonance in the public statements explaining the assorted moves.

It does sound like they have no plans about leaving Miami. The use of "framöver" further stresses Margareta Thorgren's words about their stay having no set time limit.

Does it sound to you from her statement that the decision not to leave Miami is a final one, or only for the time being?

Regarding public engagements and appanage there's not much need to clarify anything. Princess Madeleine will probably go on as she does now with the occasional appearance for which she gets reimbursement from the appanage.

But what about the status of her children in relation to public appearances? For instance, if Princess Leonore is removed from the succession but returns to Sweden in adulthood, will the door be open to her to perform reimbursed engagements in the same way that Prince Alexander and Prince Gabriel might?