Prince Gustav, Princess Carina of Berleburg and Family, Current Events 3, June 2022 -


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
The announcement understandably refers to the newborn child as son of both Gustav and Carina. However, Carina will most likely not be recognized in Germany as the legal mother until she adopts the boy, as per the information shared earlier in the thread.

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/.../-/606860?openAccordionId=item-606662-0-panel
https://www.lsvd.de/de/ct/1442-Leihmutterschaft-Rechtslage-in-Deutschland
https://www.loc.gov/item/global-leg...stice-rules-on-legal-motherhood-of-surrogate/

Is it possible that the adoption has already taken place?

It seems the Twitter poster who heard that Prince Gustav informed his staff he was expecting a son was correct. But that does not necessarily confirm whether the couple intentionally selected the biological sex, as some speculate.

I wonder why the Royal House of Denmark issued an official announcement for the child's birth but not for the parents' marriage; that seems inconsistent.

By virtue of his birth in the United States, the child also has American citizenship.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if they plan to have second child in the near future (this time a girl); and if they do, whether they use the service of the same surrogate mother,
 
The baby already has a name, confirmed by a spokesperson for Prince Gustav and Princess Carina to Billed-Bladet:

"A spokesperson for Prince Gustav zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and Princess Carina zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg confirms that the princely couple have had a son named Gustav Albrecht, which they are very happy about and are very grateful for. Everyone is doing well. After their return to Bad Berleburg, we would like to share further information".

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...stav-har-faaet-en-lille-soen-her-er-hans-navn

It is somewhat surprising that Prince Gustav named his son after his paternal grandfather Prince Gustav Albrecht (there is no other Sayn-Wittgenstein with the name), given that only a few years ago, before the late prince's last will had been published, either Gustav or somebody else from the Berleburg family disseminated false rumors about the contents of the will and encouraged reporters and royal watchers to portray the late prince as some sort of Nazi ideologue. (There is no proof as to who started the rumors, but I suspect it to be Gustav for reasons I explained here: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-3-june-2022-present-49425-5.html#post2543999)

Naming his son Gustav Albrecht instead of a name starting with Richard also breaks the tradition, which has lasted for five generations beginning with Gustav's great-grandfather, of alternating between the names Gustav and Richard. https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/sayn.html
 
:previous: Given that Gustav's nephew (who he seems to be very close to – AFAIK he currently lives with him at Berleburg) goes by Richard, I don't think it's particularly surprising that he opted for a different name for his son.
 
I am really delighted for them, they deserve it after that long wait.
 
It is somewhat surprising that Prince Gustav named his son after his paternal grandfather Prince Gustav Albrecht (there is no other Sayn-Wittgenstein with the name)

Apparently there's no hard feelings. Gustav & Carina might realise that it was a pretty standard will at the time it was written and not the personal, racist vendetta inflicted by Gustav Albrecht on his descendants that the tabloids and social media nuts seems to believe it is.
 
Speaking of the 1943 last will and testament of the late Prince Gustav Albrecht, I am going to copy over some information I recently posted to another thread:


His will did not contain the word "Aryan".

The requirements he specified in his testament were not only applicable to a future grandson. They applied to all his living and future testamentary heirs: sons, grandsons, nephews, daughters, etc.

The contents of Prince Gustav Albrecht's last will of 1943 were recorded in the 2019 and 2020 judgments in the court dispute over the succession to his estate. The passage in his will specifying the conditions required of male heirs ran as follows:


Die vorstehend berufenen Personen sollen nur Nacherben werden und bleiben, wenn sie im Besitz der Bürgerl. Ehrenrechte und evangelischen Glaubens sind und aus einer Ehe stammen, und wenn sie eine Ehe eingehen bzw. in einer Ehe leben, mit einer Frau, die adlig geboren ist und hinsichtlich ihrer Abstammung die gegenwärtigen Aufnahmebedingungen für die Mitgliedschaft bei der Deutschen Adelsgenossenschaft erfüllen kann. Diese für die Nacherben festgelegten Bedingungen gelten auch für den Vorerben, bedeuten also eine Einschränkung der für den Vorerben im Absatz 1 aufgeführten Bestimmungen.

Translation:

The persons appointed [as heirs] above shall be and remain reversionary heirs only if they enjoy the rights of citizenship and are of the Protestant faith and are issue of a marriage, and if they enter into a marriage or are living in a marriage, with a woman who is noble-born and, with regard to her ancestry, satisfies the current admission requirements for membership in the German Nobility Society. These conditions stipulated for the reversionary heirs apply also to the provisional heirs.

https://openjur.de/u/2340698.html
https://viewer.content-select.com/p...5074efaf5cc104c2b4cb6&frontend=1&language=deu


Rules excluding non-noble spouses and children from inheriting family lands proliferated throughout Germany from the 15th century onward - centuries before the Nazis existed.

Another characteristic of Germany, not unrelated (in my opinion) to the previous one, was a growing obsession from the 15th c. with the concept of equality in marriages. Of course, most European monarchies show the same trend of marrying their members only within the most elevated class, which by the 16th c. means royalty of other countries. [...] What is peculiar in Germany is that dynasties tried to establish the principle that marriages that were contracted outside of this group were less valid; and, in particular, that the offspring's claims were automatically curtailed, as a matter of law.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/g_morganat.htm



There is ambiguity in the phrase "current admission requirements" ("gegenwärtigen Aufnahmebedingungen") written by Prince Gustav Albrecht in his will. It could be interpreted to mean "current admission requirements at the time of the writing of the will (i.e., 1943)", but it could also be interpreted to mean "current admission requirements at the time of the marriage".

TRF poster Kataryn, who is a native German speaker and well informed about German law, believes from the context that Gustav Albrecht probably meant "current at the time of the marriage".

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-3-june-2022-present-49425-3.html#post2500827

I think "current at the time of the marriage" is a likely interpretation because, as Kataryn also pointed out in this thread, the late Gustav Albrecht was farsighted enough to include a clause in his will stating that a three-person committee could repeal or suspend any of the stipulations in the will, if they had become outdated:

Sollte jedoch einer dieser Gesichtspunkte später den derzeitigen Verhältnissen tatsächlich widersprechen (z.B. die Forderung evangelischen Glaubens ist dadurch überholt, daß inzwischen eine christliche deutsche Reichskirche gebildet ist, nicht jedoch, wenn der Betreffende dem Katholizismus oder der 'Gottgläubigkeit' zuneigt, wenn die evang. Kirche nach wie vor besteht), so hat ein Gremium, bestehend aus dem Chef der ... Herrschaft, dem präsumtiven nächsten Nacherben in den hiesigen Besitz und dem Vorsitzenden der Vereinigung Deutscher Stammesherren zusammenzutreten und einstimmig die Aufhebung bzw. vorübergehende Suspendierung dieser Einzelbestimmung zu beschließen.

Translation:

However, should one of these principles subsequently come into real conflict with the current circumstances (for example, the demand to belong to the Protestant faith is rendered obsolete by the establishment of a Christian German national church in the meantime, but not if the person in question is inclined towards Catholicism or "faith in God" when the Protestant church still exists), then it is incumbent upon a committee, consisting of the head of the [redacted] lordship, the presumptive next reversionary heir to this property and the president of the Union of German Family Lords, to convene and unanimously decide on the repeal or temporary suspension of this individual provision.​

So while he was a self-proclaimed traditionalist, it was obviously important to Gustav Albrecht that his requirements could be adapted to future changes in German society.


The Deutsche Adelsgenossenschaft (which was founded in 1874) still exists, although it was reestablished under a new name in 1949.

https://www.adel-in-deutschland.de/
 
Last edited:
Congratulations to all involved.
 
I wonder if they plan to have second child in the near future (this time a girl); and if they do, whether they use the service of the same surrogate mother,

I hope so.

Good to have a spare but also because it's good for a child to grow up with a sibling - for better or worse. And boy and girl is a good combination.
 
Congratulations on the birth of their son!
 
Congratulations to the couple on the birth of their little boy :flowers:

Long awaited moment for them. Finally married and with a son after all these years together and waiting. Hope perhaps they will have a second down the line, if that is what they wish.

I am a bit surprised by Albrecht and not Richard as a middle name. I get due to his nephew not using Richard as a first name, but I'd have thought they'd honor his father over his grandfather. But guess there is no bad blood over the will that kept the two from marrying for years.
 
Gustav Albrecht will be loved , Prince or not , Heir or not !

Under the present legislation, any legal child of Prince Gustav and Princess Carina will take the surname of Prince or Princess of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, the same as with their parents, and any legal child of Prince Gustav will be entitled to claim a share of his estate upon his death.


Apparently there's no hard feelings. Gustav & Carina might realise that it was a pretty standard will at the time it was written and not the personal, racist vendetta inflicted by Gustav Albrecht on his descendants that the tabloids and social media nuts seems to believe it is.

Hopefully so, but the couple never made an attempt to correct the disinformation, as far as I can tell.


I wonder if they plan to have second child in the near future (this time a girl); and if they do, whether they use the service of the same surrogate mother,

I hope so.

Good to have a spare but also because it's good for a child to grow up with a sibling - for better or worse. And boy and girl is a good combination.

If the earlier mentioned speculation that they selected the sex of their first child is true (I don't know whether there is any evidence and would appreciate some clarification), that would imply they want their children to be male since, if they simply wanted one son and one daughter, the logical route would be to leave the sex to chance the first time around.

As for having a second child: From the financial point of view (and given that Gustav broke his first engagement to a fiancée and postponed his second engagement for over a decade out of financial considerations, he has surely considered the financial issues in having children), having a second child would prevent multiple cousins from having a claim to a share of the family funds if Gustav's son does not have children of his own.
 
Last edited:
:previous: Or perhaps they just didn't want to have to justify to a firstborn daughter why a younger brother would be inheriting his father's titles and estate over her.
 
Congratulations to the couple on the birth of their son!

I can’t imagine starting out as a parent in my mid 50s! Hopefully Gustav and Carina have many years of good health and energy ahead of them. And they seem to have close relationships with the extended family, so the baby will have various young adult cousins who he can look to for support as he gets older.
 
Wonderful news! Congrats to the happy couple!!:flowers:
 
It's so nice to see everything work out for them -- marriage, and now family. True love prevails!
 
Congratulations to Gustav, Carina and Gustav Albrecht!!!!
 
Congratulations to the couple on the birth of their little boy :flowers:

Long awaited moment for them. Finally married and with a son after all these years together and waiting. Hope perhaps they will have a second down the line, if that is what they wish.

I am a bit surprised by Albrecht and not Richard as a middle name. I get due to his nephew not using Richard as a first name, but I'd have thought they'd honor his father over his grandfather. But guess there is no bad blood over the will that kept the two from marrying for years.

I wouldn't be surprised if Count Richard ends up running the estate for a few years. By the time baby Gustav Albrecht is old enough to take the reins, his father will be almost 80. Richard would be a good guardian to smooth the transition.
 
Congratulations to Prince Gustav and Princess Carina!
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Count Richard ends up running the estate for a few years. By the time baby Gustav Albrecht is old enough to take the reins, his father will be almost 80. Richard would be a good guardian to smooth the transition.
I’m quite sure they have estate managers and trusted people to help them out on that.
 
:previous: Or perhaps they just didn't want to have to justify to a firstborn daughter why a younger brother would be inheriting his father's titles and estate over her.
There are no titles to inherit and as the owner of the estate he can of course leave the estate to whoever he wants now, it doesn’t have to go to his son.
 
Congratulations to the couple on the birth of their little boy :flowers:

Long awaited moment for them. Finally married and with a son after all these years together and waiting. Hope perhaps they will have a second down the line, if that is what they wish.

I am a bit surprised by Albrecht and not Richard as a middle name. I get due to his nephew not using Richard as a first name, but I'd have thought they'd honor his father over his grandfather. But guess there is no bad blood over the will that kept the two from marrying for years.
Gustav or Richard are names used quite frequently by the family so I don’t see the issue. The will never stopped him from marrying.
 
Last edited:
I am a bit surprised by Albrecht and not Richard as a middle name. I get due to his nephew not using Richard as a first name, but I'd have thought they'd honor his father over his grandfather. [...]

Gustav or Richard are names used quite frequently by the family so I don’t see the issue. [...]

I'm not sure what you mean by issue, but I think it is right to assume that baby Gustav Albrecht was named in honor of his great-grandfather. Yes, there were other Gustavs, but the late Fürst was the only prior member of the family to use the double name "Gustav Albrecht".
 
I'm not sure what you mean by issue, but I think it is right to assume that baby Gustav Albrecht was named in honor of his great-grandfather. Yes, there were other Gustavs, but the late Fürst was the only prior member of the family to use the double name "Gustav Albrecht".
What I am saying is that it is not really that serious considering the fact that the two names are fairly common ones in his family that is all.
 
I’m quite sure they have estate managers and trusted people to help them out on that.

Who said they didn't? Someone has to be at the helm, and I imagine they'd like a family member in that role.
 
https://www.siegener-zeitung.de/lok...a-bekannt-ist-K2GNYSKT5BHMTK42Q7YDHK7MVM.html


Martin Völkel of the Siegener Zeitung reports that the couple remained in the United States for some weeks after the birth of Gustav Albrecht and returned to Bad Berleburg around a month ago.

If the math is correct, the family remained in the United States for approximately two months after the birth. Can any knowledgeable members explain what that signifies in terms of the procedures the couple might be following to register themselves as his legal parents under German law?


The article also quotes the couple's spokesman, who confirms that that Gustav Albrecht's christening will be held in the Bad Berleburg castle chapel on August 26 and there will be a reception to celebrate his birth at the Bad Berleburg castle orangery on September 9.

The spokesperson apparently did not specify if Gustav Albrecht will be baptized Protestant like his father or Catholic like his mother. There has been an increased police presence in the city in the past few days, and the reporter speculates that it means Danish royals will attend the christening.


The reporter has viewed the invitation to the September reception, which refers to "um die Geburt ihres Sohnes Gustav Albrecht, dem Erbprinzen zu Sayn-Wittgenstein, zu feiern" ("to celebrate the birth of their son Gustav Albrecht, the Hereditary Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein").

I wonder if the child will really be addressed as "the Hereditary Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein" in daily life. It seems more likely that he will be called Prince Gustav Albrecht of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg like his parents, and that the use of "Hereditary Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein" on the invitation is Gustav's message that he considers his son the future head of the entire Sayn-Wittgenstein family (and not merely the branch of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg).
 
His Highness Prince Gustav Albrecht zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg was baptized today in the chapel at Berleburg Castle.

The Prince, who is the son of Their Highnesses Prince Gustav and Princess Carina zu-Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, has six godparents, whom the family will henceforth refer to as the Prince's godparents. They are His Royal Highness Prince Christian, Her Royal Highness Princess Theodora of Greece, Ellen Hillingsø, Arabella Gaggero, His Royal Highness Prince Franz-Albrecht and Prince Carl-Anton.

In addition to Prince Christian, the royal family were present at the christening, as well as the Crown Prince Couple and the christened child's grandmother, Her Royal Highness Princess Benedikte.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CwaGsRBNnmK/

https://www.kongehuset.dk/nyheder/barnedaab-i-berleburg
 
Last edited:
What a little darling GA is! He looks so much like Gustav as a baby (and Nathalie's Konstantin keeps looking like a carbon copy of his uncle as well :D).

And so beautiful that Gustav and Carina chose Christian to be his godfather in the year of his 18th birthday.
 
What an honour for Prince Christian to have been chosen as a godfather!
 
Wow! Prince Christian's first godchild. Nice to see Franz-Albrecht, Hereditary Prince of Oettingen-Spielberg, amongst the godparents. I'm always moved to see Prince Carl-Anton. German nobles should always support each other.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom