Prince Gustav, Princess Carina of Berleburg and Family, Current Events 3, June 2022 -

[MsJulie]

Congratulations to the lovely couple, Prince Gustav and Princess Carina.

 

[JR76]

Fantastic and joyful news. I wondered if they might have a child when they married so while a surprise it's not totally unexpected.
I have some objections to the idea of using surrogate mother's in general, but there's no doubt that these children are much wanted.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

No fan of surrogacy in general but this is one of the cases where I think it's excusable.

I'm SO happy for Gustav and Carina, and SO happy that an old bigoted will didn't put a stop to their happiness.

 

[Muhler]

Indeed.

That's very good news. Their own heir to Berleburg.

At 54 I can't blame them for going surrogate either. Much safer that way.
Don't know about Carina's childhood, but Gustav and his sister's childhood surely wasn't always easy. I'm pretty certain Gustav will do things a lot different.

 

[SLV]

Happy news!

 

[akina21]

Ok but that's illegal in Germany.

 

[JR76]

Ok but that's illegal in Germany.

It's illegal here in Sweden too yet I know several couples that have had children with this method.

 

[Denville]

HOw is it illegal? does it mean that the child wont be a legitimate heir?

 

[Stefanie]

So Carina isn' t the biological mother?
I bet it will be a boy.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Wonderful news and congratulations to Princess Carina and Prince Gustav

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Indeed.

That's very good news. Their own heir to Berleburg.

At 54 I can't blame them for going surrogate either. Much safer that way.
Don't know about Carina's childhood, but Gustav and his sister's childhood surely wasn't always easy. I'm pretty certain Gustav will do things a lot different.

Will the baby be an heir?

 

[crm2317]

I’m happy for them to be able to realise this dream of a family. I will be completely shocked if the baby is not a boy!

 

[JR76]

HOw is it illegal? does it mean that the child wont be a legitimate heir?

I'm quoting a surrogacy agency:

Reproductive medicine is severely restricted in Germany due to the Embryo Protection Act, which was passed in 1991. The Embryo Protection Act states that women can only give birth to their own children.

 

[JR76]

I've seen rumours online that the baby is a boy, but it was not in the original comment made by the parents-to-be.

 

[Muhler]

Will the baby be an heir?

I would certainly think so.

The article mentions that they have overcome legal obstacles and it also says that they are being helped by a surrogate mother. So I think Carina at some point had eggs frozen, they have now been fertilized and put into the surrogate.
Which means that the child is a biological offspring of Carina and Gustav.
- How it's born and by whom is I suppose secondary.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

So Carina isn' t the biological mother?
I bet it will be a boy.

It depends if the "surrogate mother" has a succesful embryo implanted.

Then she essentially is "just" a womb to grow the embryo with the DNA of Gustav and Carina.

If the mother has received the semen of father, then she is a natural mother. The child can always be adopted, legitimized, made a heir,

 

[SirGyamfi1]

No fan of surrogacy in general but this is one of the cases where I think it's excusable.

I'm SO happy for Gustav and Carina, and SO happy that an old bigoted will didn't put a stop to their happiness.

I don’t want to start, but the will didn’t stop him from marrying. Like any citizen he can marry who he wants or wanted (they are obviously married now) but he just wouldn’t inherit his grandfathers holdings. But since he was able to go to court against his uncle and win the judgement against his uncle, they were able to marry.

 

[Stefan]

I would certainly think so.

The article mentions that they have overcome legal obstacles and it also says that they are being helped by a surrogate mother. So I think Carina at some point had eggs frozen, they have now been fertilized and put into the surrogate.
Which means that the child is a biological offspring of Carina and Gustav.
- How it's born and by whom is I suppose secondary.

But they could also have choosen to have a child long ago, which would be now legitimized after their marriage.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Post deleted. Mistake

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I've seen rumours online that the baby is a boy, but it was not in the original comment made by the parents-to-be.

I don’t know how this person got this, but a blog claims it is a boy.

 

[JR76]

I would certainly think so.

The article mentions that they have overcome legal obstacles and it also says that they are being helped by a surrogate mother. So I think Carina at some point had eggs frozen, they have now been fertilized and put into the surrogate.
Which means that the child is a biological offspring of Carina and Gustav.
- How it's born and by whom is I suppose secondary.

According to what I've read in Germany the mother is the one giving birth, not the one whose egg has been used like in other countries. If the woman giving birth is married then her husband is automatically the father until it's genetically proven otherwise.

I'd be happy to hear what people with more knowledge about the issue has to say about this.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

This 2019 report includes information on surrogacy law in Germany. Presumably, the child will be born overseas as surrogacy is illegal in Germany. As the Berleburgs intend to continue living in Germany, it seems that Carina, at least, will need to adopt the child in order to establish legal maternity.

https://www.loc.gov/item/global-leg...stice-rules-on-legal-motherhood-of-surrogate/

(Apr. 29, 2019) In a decision published on April 23, 2019, the German Federal Court of Justice (Bundesgerichtshof, BGH), Germany’s supreme court for civil and criminal cases, held that German law must be used to determine the parentage of a child born to a surrogate in Ukraine and brought to Germany immediately after birth to stay there permanently. (BGH, Mar. 20, 2019, Docket No. XII ZB 530/17, ECLI: DE:BGH:2019:200319BXIIZB530.17.0, BGH website.) The Court concluded that the surrogate must be registered as the mother of the child because only the woman who bears the child is considered the mother under German law. According to the Court, a divergent registration in Ukraine is irrelevant.

[...]

German law provides that only the woman who bears the child can be regarded as the legal mother. (BÜRGERLICHES GESETZBUCH [BGB] [CIVIL CODE], Jan. 2, 2002, BUNDESGESETZBLATT [BGBl.] [FEDERAL LAW GAZETTE] I at 42, 2909; corrected in 2003 BGBl. I at 738, as amended, § 1591, German Laws Online website.) It is a criminal offense to perform in vitro fertilization on surrogate mothers. (Embryonenschutzgesetz [ESchG] [Embryo Protection Act], Dec. 13, 1990, BGBl. I at 2746, as amended, § 1, para. 1, no. 7, German Laws Online website). Maternal surrogacy is illegal in Germany, with the Adoption Placement Act stating that “the bringing together of people who will adopt or otherwise take permanent care of a child conceived via surrogacy (purchasing parents) with a woman who agrees to act as a surrogate” is prohibited, punishable by a term of imprisonment of one year or a fine. (Adoptionsvermittlungsgesetz [AdVermiG] [Adoption Placement Act], Dec. 22, 2001, 2002 BGBl. I at 354, as amended, §§ 13b, 13c, 14, translated by author).) Surrogacy agreements are not legally valid in Germany as they violate the Embryo Protection Act and are seen by the courts as contrary to morality. (CIVIL CODE §§ 134, 138; Oberlandesgericht Hamm [OLG Hamm] [Higher Regional Court Hamm], Dec. 2, 1985, Docket No. 11 W 18/85, available in 39 NEUE JURISTISCHE WOCHENSCHRIFT [NJW] 781,783 (1986).)

Ruling

The Federal Court of Justice held that German law must be applied to determine the legal parentage of the child in the case in question. (BGH para. 15.) German conflict-of-law rules provide that the parentage of a child is governed by the law of the place where the child habitually resides, by the law of the country of his or her parents’ nationality, or by the law that governs the general effects of the marriage of the parents. (Id. at 16; Einführungsgesetz zum Bürgerlichen Gesetzbuche [EGBGB], Introductory Act to the Civil Code [Sept. 21, 1994, BGBl. I at 2494; corrected in 1997 BGBl. I at 1061, as amended, art. 19, para. 1, German Laws Online website.) The Court reiterated that persons have their habitual residence in the place where they have the center of their lives. Their presence in this place must reflect an adequate degree of permanence and cannot be just temporary or intermittent. In order to determine the habitual residence of minors, particularly of infants, it is necessary to assess the parents’ integration in their social and family environment as the child generally shares their social and family environment. The habitual residence of a child and its parents will only differ in exceptional cases. (BGH para. 19.)

In the case at issue, the child had its habitual residence in Germany, because all parties to the surrogacy agreement agreed that the child would go to Germany with the plaintiffs immediately after the birth and remain there permanently. (Id. at 22.) In addition, both Ukrainian and German law recognize the husband as the legal father of the child. The child therefore has German citizenship and is legally present in Germany. (Id.; Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz [StAG] [Nationality Act], July 22, 1913, REICHSGESETZBLATT [RGBl.] [IMPERIAL LAW GAZETTE] at 583, as amended, § 4, para. 1, German Laws Online website.) In the opinion of the Court, as the child never had his habitual residence in Ukraine, only the surrogate could be registered as the legal mother and not the wife. (BGH paras. 27 & 28.) The Court concluded that the wife must adopt the child in order to become its legal mother. (Id. at 28.)
​

Ironic that after relying on Civil Code § 138 in his court filings in the inheritance dispute (which turned out to be unnecessary), Gustav's arrangements for the birth of his child are seemingly similar to agreements which courts have ruled are in violation of § 138...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The links are actually in the previous post, but I'll leave them here again:


Decision of the Agricultural Court of Bad Berleburg (8 April 2019): https://openjur.de/u/2340698.html


Part of the decision of the Regional Appeals Court in Hamm (27 July 2020): https://viewer.content-select.com/p...5074efaf5cc104c2b4cb6&frontend=1&language=deu

Thank you for reposting the links, Elizaveta.

Now that the text of the last will of the late Prince Gustav Albrecht in 1943 has been published in the court decisions, I have been wondering how the misinformation about the will supposedly containing an "Aryan clause" (which it does not, as discussed earlier in this thread, although it could be interpreted as implicit in other 1943 laws) became so widely disseminated.

Prior to the court case, the contents of the will were private, and I cannot believe that numerous German journalists would simply invent something of this nature. The only reasonable conclusion, I think, is that one or more members of the Berleburg family must have briefed journalists that there was an "Aryan clause" in the will.

It seems probable that that family member was Prince Gustav himself. I reach this conclusion mainly from Muhler's translation of Gustav's interview with Billed Bladet in summer 2022, according to which he said:

Additional details from the interview, in no particular order.
In the ruling by the Oberlandesgericht for Nordrhein-Westfalen it was determined that the will was contrary to Gustav's human rights and also that most European royal houses today have members who were commoners, so the will about Gustav's wife having to be a noble, went out the window as well.

Now that the ruling by the Oberlandesgericht has been made public, it can be seen there that the court did not determine that the will was contrary to Gustav's human rights, it did not make any argument about European royal houses, and it did not throw out the part of the will about Gustav's (hypothetical) wife having to be born noble. (As Elizaveta and I noted, the link redacts some details of the ruling, but it contains the court's full explanation of the reasons for its decision that Gustav is the lawful heir to his grandfather.)

So, barring a miscommunication or mistranslation, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that Prince Gustav had a habit of stretching the truth in regards to the issues surrounding the Berleburg inheritance.

Frankly, it puzzles me that he even felt the need to do so. He already enjoyed a great deal of public support from the rumor (which did turn out to be true) that his grandfather's will forced him to choose between his estate and his marriage to Carina because she was not born noble.

This is speculation, but I wonder if the exaggeration was an attempt to discourage his cousin Ludwig-Ferdinand from challenging him over the inheritance (as he might have assumed Ludwig-Ferdinand would not want to be painted in the media as "fighting for a Nazi clause").

 

[JR76]

I do wonder, if the child is born in a country where the biological originator of the egg is automatically the legal mother Carina might not have to go through an adoption process since the child was there legally hers at birth? The way I read the links posted up-thread both parents were German citizens. Is it known for instance if Carina is a Swedish, Mexican or US citizen?

 

[TLLK]

Congratulations to the couple and best wishes for an easy and safe delivery for their surrogate mother.

 

[suztav]

So, our suspicions were most likely accurate. They probably had either frozen embryos and/or frozen eggs which were recently inseminated. Good for them!

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Thank you for reposting the links, Elizaveta.

Now that the text of the last will of the late Prince Gustav Albrecht in 1943 has been published in the court decisions, I have been wondering how the misinformation about the will supposedly containing an "Aryan clause" (which it does not, as discussed earlier in this thread, although it could be interpreted as implicit in other 1943 laws) became so widely disseminated.

Prior to the court case, the contents of the will were private, and I cannot believe that numerous German journalists would simply invent something of this nature. The only reasonable conclusion, I think, is that one or more members of the Berleburg family must have briefed journalists that there was an "Aryan clause" in the will.

It seems probable that that family member was Prince Gustav himself. I reach this conclusion mainly from Muhler's translation of Gustav's interview with Billed Bladet in summer 2022, according to which he said:



Now that the ruling by the Oberlandesgericht has been made public, it can be seen there that the court did not determine that the will was contrary to Gustav's human rights, it did not make any argument about other European royal houses, and it did not throw out the part of the will about Gustav's (hypothetical) wife having to be noble. (As Elizaveta and I noted, the link redacts some details of the ruling, but it contains the court's full explanation of the reasons for its decision that Gustav is the lawful heir to his grandfather.)

So, barring a miscommunication or mistranslation, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that Prince Gustav had a habit of stretching the truth in regards to the issues surrounding the Berleburg inheritance.

Frankly, it puzzles me that he even felt the need to do so. He already enjoyed a great deal of public support from the rumor (which did turn out to be true) that his grandfather's will forced him to choose between his estate and his marriage to Carina because she was not born noble.

This is speculation, but I wonder if the exaggeration was an attempt to discourage his cousin Ludwig-Ferdinand from suing him over the inheritance (as he might have assumed Ludwig-Ferdinand would not want to be painted in the media as "fighting for a Nazi clause").

I think your assumption is correct because Ludwig-Ferdinand was the one who recently went to court against Gustav. It seems probable that Gustav did it to discourage him. Plus Ludwig wanted the estate. As someone already said on this forum that you can’t be legally forced into marrying someone by a will, but you can have stipulations or conditions in your will about how someone can inherit.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Princess Carina's name precedes Prince Gustav's name in their announcement; I wonder if it is to emphasize that Princess Carina will become legal mother to the child despite not being the birth mother (and possibly not the genetic mother).

Who is reporting the rumor(s) that the child will be a boy?

I bet it will be a boy.

I will be completely shocked if the baby is not a boy!

Have Gustav or Carina stated their preference for a son, or are you referring to the general insistence on male heirs among German noble estate owners, or some other reason?

But they could also have choosen to have a child long ago, which would be now legitimized after their marriage.

The couple temporarily lived apart from one another (Carina moving to London while Gustav remained in Berleburg), with Gustav citing their separate residences in court to challenge his cousin Ludwig-Ferdinand's claim that they were living in a de facto marriage. (Which proved unnecessary, as the appeals court ruled that the issue of whether their relationship was like that of a married couple was legally immaterial.)

I assume that the legal argument over their relationship was precisely the reason for the temporary separation, so they may have avoided having a child for the same reason, since Ludwig-Ferdinand might have likewise argued that becoming parents together was another sign that their relationship was a marriage in all but name.

I'm SO happy for Gustav and Carina, and SO happy that an old bigoted will didn't put a stop to their happiness.

Without the old bigoted will, the family inheritance would have been partitioned as normal between Gustav's father and his four siblings and their mother. So although it indeed damaged their happiness in some respects, it also increased their happiness in the form of a rich inheritance (which is clearly important to at least one member of the couple, given their choice to delay their marriage until the inheritance was secured for Gustav).

Is it known for instance if Carina is a Swedish, Mexican or US citizen?

I have seen reports stating that Carina holds US and Swedish citizenship, but as she has reportedly lived with Gustav in Germany since around 2005, it is possible that she has acquired German citizenship by naturalization.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

I don’t want to start, but the will didn’t stop him from marrying. Like any citizen he can marry who he wants or wanted (they are obviously married now) but he just wouldn’t inherit his grandfathers holdings. But since he was able to go to court against his uncle and win the judgement against his uncle, they were able to marry.

I don't think I've ever claimed that they were physically unable marry. But it's also pretty clear from, well, the fact that they didn't, that the consequences as stipulated in the will were what kept them from marrying a long time ago.

 

[Stefan]

The couple temporarily lived apart from one another (Carina moving to London while Gustav remained in Berleburg), with Gustav citing their separate residences in court to challenge his cousin Ludwig-Ferdinand's claim that they were living in a de facto marriage. (Which proved unnecessary, as the appeals court ruled that the issue of whether their relationship was like that of a married couple was legally immaterial.)

I assume that the legal argument over their relationship was precisely the reason for the temporary separation, so they may have avoided having a child for the same reason, since Ludwig-Ferdinand might have likewise argued that becoming parents together was another sign that their relationship was a marriage in all but name.

They could have had a child 10 or 12 years ago (when Carina was still young enough) and then have separated later so that there was no official relationship.