Service of Thanksgiving for the Duke of Edinburgh; 29 March 2022

[Osipi]

What happened to not going round in circles.

I don't think square dancing is an international type of dance.

(ducks and runs for cover)

Sometimes too, people like me don't start watching the service until long after the service is over. I had to wait to find a stream that was closed captioned. ?

 

[muriel]

Not so fast - the Order of the Golden Fleece is a Christian one, founded by a Royal from Burgundy, which is now France. The Order of the Garter is an English one, founded by an English King!

And I did not say, King Felipe is a vassal, but that he is treated like one!!!

And I can not imagine, that Queen Elizabeth II. would be treated in Spain or Denmark, like King Felipe and Queen Margarthe of Demark were treated in Windsor - if this ever happens, then things went very bad for the UK and it lost all international respect.

Do you really think, that Queen Elizabeth would have to wait after a Danish prayer service for King Hendrik until the last most distant relative of the Danish Royal Family has passed, just to be herded into a Bus with other Nobles and Royals and the bus would be even late? Come on!

I think we should all contain our outrage, these things happen sometimes. I am sure there was no malicious intent, or a desire to cause umbrage.

From what I hear, monarchs and their spouses tend to be quite amused when things do go wrong, as pretty much everything arond them is always run perfectly.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Here's a video from the departure and you can see the king and queen of Belgium leaving right after the Yorks with I assume their aide-de-camp and then a royal build up at the abbey door with the duke of Kent and Prince/Princess Michael squeezing by.
Prince Albert got to catch up with Princess Michael and Peter Philips!

 

[Denville]

I think we should all contain our outrage, these things happen sometimes. I am sure there was no malicious intent, or a desire to cause umbrage.

From what I hear, monarchs and their spouses tend to be quite amused when things do go wrong, as pretty much everything arond them is always run perfectly.

well if they were watiing for buses, SOMEONE had to go first and it was probably simpler to let the British contingent go out first...

 

[roseroyal]

Sarah has been accepted as being someone that remains very close to her ex-husband and children and yes.. she has been to Balmoral to visit with the Queen at the Queen's invite but it's *always* noted, without fail, that Sarah will leave before Philip would arrive. I don't think they've spent any time whatsoever talking to each other as individuals since Sarah had those toe sucking pictures plasted all over front pages.

Sometimes things like this happen. The Queen Mum was the same way with Wallis Simpson. Some things in a relationship between two people can never, ever be repaired. I did not expect Sarah to attend this service of thanksgiving nor did I expect anyone to think it was odd she wasn't there. Philip's antipathy towards Sarah was very, very well known.

One thing I admired about Phillip was that he never let his feelings torwards Sarah affect the relationship between his grandkids, and she has always encouraged it.

 

[maria-olivia]

back to thr thread.
I saw the You Tube and was impressed .
It is certainly the last time Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II will attend a great Event at Westminster Abbey and how at the end she talked with the black young Lady.
Great Hommage to the Duke . Well done !

 

[Mbruno]

Here's a video from the departure and you can see the king and queen of Belgium leaving right after the Yorks with I assume their aide-de-camp and then a royal build up at the abbey door with the duke of Kent and Prince/Princess Michael squeezing by.
Prince Albert got to catch up with Princess Michael and Peter Philips!

Thanks for posting. I had the wrong impression that the foreign royals had left immediately after the Gloucesters, but, now seeing the video, I realized they also had to wait for Peter's and Zara's families plus several other junior people to come out of the Abbey before they were told they could move.

 

[Osipi]

back to thr thread.
I saw the You Tube and was impressed .
It is certainly the last time Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II will attend a great Event at Westminster Abbey and how at the end she talked with the black young Lady.
Great Hommage to the Duke . Well done !

Don't we have the Platinum Jubilee coming up? I'd be surprised if there wasn't some kind of a service of thanksgiving or blessing for her very long reign at Westminster Abbey. That's only a couple of months from now.

I'm still working my way through the whole service and so much of it has impressed me, made me smile and give me another whole new list of things about Philip to admire that I didn't realize before. I think I can even say that Philip has ranked #1 as a consort to a British Queen. He made that role his own and enacted changes all over the globe for the betterment of humanity and the planet we all live on.

 

[An Ard Ri]

And the foreign royals eventually got to leave the abbey,the bells are magnificent!

 

[victor1319]

I think we should all contain our outrage, these things happen sometimes. I am sure there was no malicious intent, or a desire to cause umbrage.

From what I hear, monarchs and their spouses tend to be quite amused when things do go wrong, as pretty much everything arond them is always run perfectly.

In my mind this was caused by a lack of effort! And the bus! I am a German and I know that at least two German mobility corporations are doing big business in England: BMW (Mini, Rolly Royce) and VW (Bentley).

And as a German I know a little bit about my fellow countrymen and I am pretty sure, they would have lent some cars to this occasion, at least for the Royals.

Prince William for example drove Audi from VW for long years and I am pretty sure he did not have to pay for the cars...

And to the walk-out: I liked how the Belgian Royals probably bodychecked their way into the line. And as I wrote yesterday here in the thread, the other Royals took it like Gentlemen and Gentlewomen - with a mild smile and contenance...

Bu what other choice did the really have?

 

[caethi]

Not so fast - the Order of the Golden Fleece is a Christian one, founded by a Royal from Burgundy, which is now France. The Order of the Garter is an English one, founded by an English King!

And I did not say, King Felipe is a vassal, but that he is treated like one!!!

And I can not imagine, that Queen Elizabeth II. would be treated in Spain or Denmark, like King Felipe and Queen Margarthe of Demark were treated in Windsor - if this ever happens, then things went very bad for the UK and it lost all international respect.

Do you really think, that Queen Elizabeth would have to wait after a Danish prayer service for King Hendrik until the last most distant relative of the Danish Royal Family has passed, just to be herded into a Bus with other Nobles and Royals and the bus would be even late? Come on!

Most well-adjusted and confident people who are in positions of privilege have the good graces to accept situations as they present themselves, and not feel slighted or disrespected if things don't go exactly as expected or planned. As far as "international respect" goes, most people could care less if some archaic rule about royalty and precedence isn't followed, and I am willing to bet that the principal players didn't care much either.

That's all I will say about this situation. We are going in circles.

 

[Izzie]

I would have loved to see if the situations were reversed and this had taken place with another royal family if the same reaction would occur or would there be pearl clutching about how dare the BRF be left waiting for buses and they should have been afforded proper respect, etc etc. I am sure the British tabloids would have been up in arms about it. Why? Because like someone a few pages back on this thread said, it is the opinion that other royal families (even if the oldest monarchy in Europe - the Danish monarchy) are of lesser degree and just not as important. And if that is so, then the foreign royals were just there as props.

 

[muriel]

I would have loved to see the reactions if the situations were reversed and this had taken place with another royal family if the same reaction would occur or would there be pearl clutching about how dare the BRF be left waiting for buses and they should have been afforded proper respect, etc etc. I am sure the British tabloids would have been up in arms about it. Why? because like someone a few pages back on this thread said, it is the opinion that other royal families (even if the oldest monarchy in Europe - the Danish monarchy) are of lesser degree and just not as important. And if that is so, then the foreign royals were just there as props.

These things happen form time to time. I really doubt most of the royals waiting were really upset. How people on social media might react is a totally different story, IMO!

 

[Denville]

back to thr thread.
I saw the You Tube and was impressed .
It is certainly the last time Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II will attend a great Event at Westminster Abbey and how at the end she talked with the black young Lady.
Great Hommage to the Duke . Well done !

How do you know that? She is very old and frail but she is still able to attend things.

 

[victor1319]

As far as "international respect" goes, most people could care less if some archaic rule about royalty and precedence isn't followed, and I am willing to bet that the principal players didn't care much either.

Yeah, it is not the times of old anymore. Social standing and prestige are not that important anymore... and who knows, perhaps even considered as childish or as pride, a sin... - perhaps, perhaps not, folks are different.

And to the "international" aspect: As I have seen in the vids from today here in the thread, the Scottish Prime Ministress was snubbed too and came out of the church only after a long while and late. She is a proud Scottish women and a fierce Scot anyway, so the snub should not have led to a change in her attitude...

But if I were an English politician or Royal, I at least would try to give her the feeling to be a Very Important Person and very welcome in Windsor and London - the full package, everything of charme and appropriate ceremony the Windsors have to offer!

But that is just me... As an English Royal I would honor my political enemies and the political enemies of the UK. But I am a not an English Royal - Thank God!?

 

[Hallo girl]

The correct title for Nicola Sturgeon is First Minister of Scotland.
What makes you think she was snubbed, she maybe was taking the opportunity to network with other politicians there have been very few face to face meetings for 2 years. Or maybe she sensed there would be a crush and held back.
Why does every action or deed need to be a snub or a fault. Why does there need to be a sinister message in every action.
[.....]

 

[Denville]

[...]

well why would hte Prime minister of Scotland be an enemy of England? Why would they snub her?

 

[Ista]

Time to ease up on the speculation and get back to discussion of the actual event.

 

[wartenberg7]

It was not a state funeral to be hastily arranged in 10 days. It was a service which was months and months in the planning. That is why the lack of decorum, the clumsy handling of dignitaries, was remarkable.

In other monarchies like Denmark, Spain, the Netherlands always an aide-de-camp is assigned to each royal, effectively to be their escort, counsel and assistance. Today in London the foreign royals seemed to be un-escorted, which did not help ceremony and protocol.

I agree with you entirely! It´s been a disappointing display of the british court, which Her british Majesty, after a lifelong service of dedication, didn´t deserve! It was not a catastrophe, but at least a poor show...
Also the seating of such high ranking royal heads of state was something which left me, personally, a bit speechless...! I really am not cynical about this - I´m rather sad. You do not keep old 80 something people, heads of state or not, keep there waiting standing!

 

[Tatiana Maria]

And I can not imagine, that Queen Elizabeth II. would be treated in Spain or Denmark, like King Felipe and Queen Margarthe of Demark were treated in Windsor - if this ever happens, then things went very bad for the UK and it lost all international respect.

Most well-adjusted and confident people who are in positions of privilege have the good graces to accept situations as they present themselves, and not feel slighted or disrespected if things don't go exactly as expected or planned. As far as "international respect" goes, most people could care less if some archaic rule about royalty and precedence isn't followed, and I am willing to bet that the principal players didn't care much either.

My personal sense is that, while she undoubtedly "has the good graces to accept situations as they present themselves", Queen Elizabeth cares for the rules of precedence, more than some of her fellow monarchs. But I would happily stand corrected if there have in fact been instances when she accepted to walk behind minor members of another royal family on a formal occasion.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I agree with you entirely! It´s been a disappointing display of the british court, which Her british Majesty, after a lifelong service of dedication, didn´t deserve! It was not a catastrophe, but at least a poor show...
Also the seating of such high ranking royal heads of state was something which left me, personally, a bit speechless...! I really am not cynical about this - I´m rather sad. You do not keep old 80 something people, heads of state or not, keep there waiting standing!

1. This was a FAMILY event not a state occasion so Philip's close family were seated more prominently than more distant family. Philip's four children were in the front row for instance and not according to the normal seating we see for BRF events with the Cambridge's seated more prominently than say Anne who is normally, these days behind the Cambridge's, York's and Wessex's.

2. As it wasn't a state occasion the streets leading to and from the Abbey weren't closed - as they will be for the Jubilee service. London is often gridlocked and traffic was bad on the day of the service which is why the cars/coaches arrived in the order they did.

3. Had the foreign royals followed the issued programme they would have remained in their seats until their transport was ready for them.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Don't we have the Platinum Jubilee coming up? I'd be surprised if there wasn't some kind of a service of thanksgiving or blessing for her very long reign at Westminster Abbey. That's only a couple of months from now.

I believe the Jubilee Service, as per tradition for these, will be at St Paul's and not at the Abbey.

Both of Queen Victoria's Jubilees, George V's and the previous 3 of The Queen's Jubilees have all been at St Paul's.

 

[Osipi]

I believe the Jubilee Service, as per tradition for these, will be at St Paul's and not at the Abbey.

Both of Queen Victoria's Jubilees, George V's and the previous 3 of The Queen's Jubilees have all been at St Paul's.

I've just seen this posted upthread about St. Paul's Cathedral and had forgotten that the previous Jubilee services where there also. I just knew that the Queen wouldn't agree to a time of celebration of her years of reign without there being some kind of a service where she'd be there front and center to thank and praise her God for the ability to be of service to her people for so long. She has that strong of a faith and holds it tight. ?

 

[Mbruno]

I would have loved to see if the situations were reversed and this had taken place with another royal family if the same reaction would occur or would there be pearl clutching about how dare the BRF be left waiting for buses and they should have been afforded proper respect, etc etc. I am sure the British tabloids would have been up in arms about it. Why? Because like someone a few pages back on this thread said, it is the opinion that other royal families (even if the oldest monarchy in Europe - the Danish monarchy) are of lesser degree and just not as important. And if that is so, then the foreign royals were just there as props.

That is unfair. The British Royal Family is actually privately much closer to other continental royals than it is normally assumed as it can be seen from Prince Albert chatting with Peter Phillips, Mike Tindall or Princess Michael. And the foreign royals were invited to the service not only as heads of state, but in many cases also as friends of the family. They were hardly props.

 

[Marengo]

Philip's close family were seated more prominently than more distant family.

Talking about close family: the relatives of the Duke's own family received a prominent place, which was a thoughtful gesture of the Queen. I wondered however if anybody knows why the Landgrave of Hesse was included there? Neither he nor his wife are descendants of the Duke's sisters, unlike the Hereditary Prince of Baden and the Prince of Hohenlohe who were also seated on the first row. Neither are they as closely related as the Mountbattens are.

Obviously the prominent place for the landgrave indicates that the duke valued the connection to the Hesses. I was wondering if it is known how this came about? Perhaps simply symbolic because the Mountbattens are a morganatic branch of the house of Hesse, and the landgrave is the head of that family? And perhaps because two of Philip’s sisters married members of that family?

Or is there a more personal connection/friendship? I believe the Duke was fairly friendly with his sister Cecilie's brother-in-law Ludwig of Hesse and by Rhine and his [British] wife Margaret [Peg]. Ludwig was the godfather of the Earl of Wessex. The couple had no children and were close to the father of the present Landgrave, who they adopted to ensure the continuity of the family assets.

 

[Mbruno]

My personal sense is that, while she undoubtedly "has the good graces to accept situations as they present themselves", Queen Elizabeth cares for the rules of precedence, more than some of her fellow monarchs. But I would happily stand corrected if there have in fact been instances when she accepted to walk behind minor members of another royal family on a formal occasion.

I am not quite sure what order of predence was observed in this particular service. On previous occasions at the Abbey, including William and Kate's wedding and the Queen Mother's funeral, representatives of foreign royal families were seated in front rows next to the senior British Royal Family with a physical separation between the two groups of seats. This time they were placed behind the extended British Royal Family (as in the sixth or seventh row) and apparenly seated in alphabetical order rather than giving precedence to the longest reigning monarch as usual. The whole seating plan for the guests was actually odd .

EDIT: It is easier to show a video to illustrate what I am trying to say.

Around 41 min , you can see the foreign royal families back in the sixth row behind the junior British royals.

By contrast, at the Queen Mother's funeral , you can see the foreign royals seated next to the British Royal Family in the front rows and a much more orderly exit from the church.

You can see a similar seating plan at William and Kate's wedding , i.e. the senior British royals and then the foreign royal families next to them in the front rows.

 

[EllieCat]

Seems to me those cobblestones in front of the Church looked hard to walk on, especially for those ladies with high shoes.

 

[W.Y.CII]

3. Had the foreign royals followed the issued programme they would have remained in their seats until their transport was ready for them.

TBH from my experience the last thing you can expect when organising/handling an event is, to expect all the guests, royal or not, VIP or not, would be a good guest, would read the program and follow it properly (well some may, but still don't expect that they all would comprehend it properly and do what is planned). Always need someone to guide and cue them if you want things go smoothly without any single mistake. And it would be hard for me to believe they leave no staff inside the venue to give the guest a cue/signal when to leave, stop and remind the guests when they don't follow the program. To blame the guests for this mess doesn't quite make sense to me.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I would expect the guests to be able to read the programme and follow what it said. They had already followed the programme to stand and sit as appropriate but couldn't read the end of the event instructions - sorry I blame them for not reading the programme that clearly tells them to wait. Basic bad manners for any guest to not read the instructions and follow them.

 

[Osipi]

I'm still working my way through watching the entire service but I have to admit that I am enjoying the commentary more than watching the people or to see who wore what. So far my favorite clip has to be near the beginning before the service even started where Huw Edwards is interviewing Simon Weston, CBE about his experiences meeting with the DoE and it's an incredibly amusing, yet very touching, story that seems to echo throughout the entire service whenever someone is asked about how they saw Philip, the man. "God, Weston, you got fat!" cracked me up as much as it did them relating the story.

This theme has resounded so much through the service so far as I've gotten (I seem to have the attention span of a gnat these days). I really thought our conversations in this thread about the service would center around remembering Philip like they did instead of focusing on things that went wrong and what people seemed to be snubbed. No one is actually talking about Philip and his life and the memories that were the purpose of the whole Service of Thanksgiving in the first place.