Royal and Noble Families: Dynastic Laws and Marriage Rules

[Ish]

How is Lady Gabriella not of a Royal house though? Is the House of Windsor not Royal enough?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

She's a member of the House of Windsor, and a British Dynast, but she's not a member of the British Royal Family.
For the Head of the Brazilian Imperial House, she's isn't royal enough.

 

[Ish]

That makes more sense.

What you're saying (if I'm correct) is that the Brazilian Imperial House only considers marriage between members of Princely, Imperial, or Royal houses who hold titles or styles like HRH, and not members who are simply of the household.

That begs the question - presumably Prince Harry would be considered eligible for marriage based on his background. What if he had a daughter of marriageable age who did not have any styling in her own right (owing to her being a great-granddaughter of the monarch) but was expected to one day be an HRH on the ascension of her grandfather. Would such a daughter be considered eligible for marriage?

 

[Spheno]

In this situation the queen grants Harry's daughter title and solves the problem.
Such situation was in the past.

 

[Ish]

In that situation, the Queen could grant Lady Gabriella a title.
My question was not intended to be a "what would they do" so much as a "would she be eligible as is?"

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

In fact, she would never be accepted, Princess or not, because a Brazilian Prince has to marry a Catholic.
But, supposing there's no religion restrictions, she would be considered eligible to marry a Brazilian Prince as soon she become a Princess, not before that.

 

[Spheno]

In this situation the queen grants Harry's daughter title and solves the problem.
Such situation was in the past.

wiki:
24 October 1887 – 3 April 1906: Her Highness Princess Victoria Eugenie of Battenberg
3 April – 31 May 1906: Her Royal Highness Princess Victoria Eugenie of Battenberg
31 May 1906 – 14 April 1931: Her Majesty The Queen

 

[Ish]

In fact, she would never be accepted, Princess or not, because a Brazilian Prince has to marry a Catholic.

And a British Princess (or close enough) cannot marry a Catholic. As Spheno nicely pointed out, however, there are cases where British princesses have converted to Catholicism in order to marry into Catholic royalty where their husbands chances of inheriting were greater than their own (Princess Victoria Eugenie of Battenberg would have given up her succession rights to the British throne upon her conversion to Catholicism, which was a requirement prior to her marriage to Alfonso XIII of Spain).

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Well, in order to marry a Brazilian Prince or Princess, you have fulfill the following requirements:

- Be a HSH, HH, HRH or HIH.

- Be a Catholic.

 

[Marc23]

Well, depends.

Yes,some families have different rules...

Some acquire only the title,some membership of the House in question,some certain amount of noble/royal ancestry and some just approval of the Head of the family...

 

[Sangre_Real016]

...there are cases where British princesses have converted to Catholicism in order to marry into Catholic royalty.

not only Queen Victoria Eugenie, but also, the current Queen of Spain, Sofia, who was born a Princess of Greece and Denmark was born and raised as a Greek Orthodox.. she converted to a Roman Catholic upon her marriage to the then Infante Juan Carlos of Spain..

Well, in order to marry a Brazilian Prince or Princess, you have fulfill the following requirements:
- Be a HSH, HH, HRH or HIH.
- Be a Catholic.

well, i think it would be more specific than just bearing those styles.. in just basing on those styles, then HSH Princess Anna Czartoryska would be good enough HRH Prince Antônio of Orléans-Braganza even though she is not from a mediatised noble house.. but i have to admit, the House of Czartoryski, like the House of Ligne is an exhalted princely family even though they are not mediatised.
.

 

[Warren]

...the Heirs to the Hohenzollern dynasty are decided by unwritten House Laws...
As there isn't any written document left about the House Laws,during the Kingdom of Prussia and the Empire of Germany it was up to the Head of the family to decide consulting all other legitimate male family members... The practice of the house was clearly to set high standards to marriages,but they never mentioned them in particular.

In 1943 Crown Prince Wilhelm of Prussia made an instruction which stated that "considering the fact that the choice of Protestant women of equal rank according to the House Laws of the Royal House is extraordinarily small and constantly shrinking, the Head of the Royal House can in exceptional circumstances declare a marriage as equal even if the conditions for equality are not met."

However, Georg Friedrich's position as Head of the House of Hohenzollern and requirement to "marry equally" are more based on the will of Crown Prince Wilhelm (GF's great-grandfather). The will provided for an heir (Prince Louis Ferdinand) and for a reversionary heir (unnamed). At the death of Wilhelm in 1951 Louis Ferdinand duly succeeded him as Head of House and inherited the family estates under the terms of the will. At the death of Louis Ferdinand in 1994 the clauses of Wilhelm's will required that the successor of Louis Ferdinand not be unequally married or born of an unequal marriage.

The Federal Constitutional Court in 2004 determined that the Hohenzollern House Laws of the Prussian Constitution of 1850 and of the Reich Constitution of 1871 were made irrelevant by the Weimar Constitution of 1919 and the Prussian Constitution of 1920. Nonetheless, the Court upheld that it was valid for a testator to settle the succession by "testamentary disposition largely by his personal wishes and ideas".

sources: The Hohenzollern Succession Dispute
Federal Constitutional Court ruling 2004

As an aside... At the time he succeeded to the Headship of the House of Hohenzollern GF was "not unequally married or born of an unequal marriage" and thus satisfied or complied with the conditions laid down in Crown Prince Wilhelm's will. However, the will does not appear to carry forward past that event. Therefore it could be argued that Georg Friedrich, after his succession, was legally free to marry "unequally" while still retaining the Headship.

Following on from this, there also appears to be no impediment to the eldest son of Georg Friedrich marrying whoever he pleases, with no threat to his eventual inheritance of or succession to the Headship. If future "equal marriages" are desired then GF may have to place in his own will similar conditions regarding inheritance of the Headship of the House as was done by his great-grandfather.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Well, the will of the Head of the House is the only thing that matters.

For example, in 1948, Prince Pedro Henrique, the Head of the Imperial House of Brazil, declared the marriage of his sister, Princess Pia Maria, with Count René of Nicolay as dynastic.

He did this because, by the time, he had already six children, so, Princess Pia Maria prospects of inheriting the Headship of the Imperial House was very small, and was agreed that any children born to her marriage would be French (their father's nationality), barring them from inherit the Headship of the Brazilian Throne, which is reserved for Brazilian by birth.

 

[USCtrojan]

Well, in order to marry a Brazilian Prince or Princess, you have fulfill the following requirements:

- Be a HSH, HH, HRH or HIH.

- Be a Catholic.

Maria da Gloria de Braganza y Orleans did not marry a catholic, although he was a HRH.

Was she a member of the senior line, though?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Princess Maria da Glória of Orleans-Braganza is not a member of the Brazilian Imperial Family, because her grandfather, Prince Pedro de Alcântara, renounced his succession rights, in his name, and in name of all his descendents.

In fact, when Her Royal Highness divorced from Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia, she cited cultural and religious differences as the reason for their separation.
Now she's married to a Roman Catholic, the Duke of Sergobe.

Yes,some families have different rules...

Yes. I believe the Brazilian Imperial Family is one the Royal Houses with the most strict rules regarding marriage.

 

[Marc23]

Yes. I believe the Brazilian Imperial Family is one the Royal Houses with the most strict rules regarding marriage.

Well,today it's not hard to do that,as most royal Houses don't have such House rules,as only the approval of the Head of the family is enough-Britain,Denmark,Spain,Netherlands,Norway,Sweden have commoners as future consorts...

At least Belgium,Luxembourg and Liechtenstein have some noble ones...

If we speak about the strict rules for Head of the family succession we should ask Houses of Leiningen or Sayn-Wittgenstein what they have to say about it

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Oh, yes, the Brazilian Imperial House Rules looks very liberal when compared to the Sayn-Witgenstein Rules.

 

[Marc23]

Oh, yes, the Brazilian Imperial House Rules looks very liberal when compared to the Sayn-Witgenstein Rules.

And yet,Sayn-Wittgenstein has many Princes who still have succession rights,while some other Princes don't...

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Well, the Brazilian Throne is not with a lack of heirs.
The Line of Succession of the Brazilian Throne has about 25 names.
At least, the Brazilian Imperial House doesn't enforce Nazi prejudices regarding marriages.

 

[Marc23]

I was talking in general...And I was also talking about the fact that there have been a lot male members of this same family who kept their line to the headship by marrying equally for their standards,which is a rarity for most of today's noble families...unlike also in Brazil where you have 25 succession names from different families,with just one male member of the family who married equally,while the other male members who are in line are not married...

At least, the Brazilian Imperial House doesn't enforce Nazi prejudices regarding marriages.

Well, they were not a German family to have the need to point that out...but if we speak about prejudice,almost every family who still has and follows some kind of House Law has prejudice,in this or that way...

Why should one person who is entering the family be good enough because she was born noble and some non-noble not good enough for the succession purposes?Although I like noble marrying noble,realistically,it's still a prejudice that a royal/noble born person in better suited for something than the one who isn't...

 

[Stefan]

Oh, yes, the Brazilian Imperial House Rules looks very liberal when compared to the Sayn-Witgenstein Rules.

But in the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg case it are not House Rules, but rules who are regulated in a Testament.

 

[NGalitzine]

But in the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg case it are not House Rules, but rules who are regulated in a Testament.

Doesn't Prince Richards fathers will only deal with the family fortune and not headship?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Doesn't Prince Richards fathers will only deal with the family fortune and not headship?

Yes, but I think Prince Richard and Carina are happy just cohabiting.

He can be the Head of the House, and she can live like a Princess (without the title, of course).

 

[Marc23]

What would happen if they want children?I mean,she is not getting younger as the time passes by...

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Nothing is banning them from having children. Be married is not a requirement to have reproduce.
Of course, their children will no bear titles, and they'll be illegitimate, so no succession.
But Carina is almost 45. I don't think she wants children.

 

[Marc23]

Not just that...their children would lose the money their potential father now has,so I don't think they would want children with these kind of consequences...

If Gustav thought otherwise he would marry Corina already and would keep his title,but would lose the money and the Headship...

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

I don't know nothing about German laws of inheritanc but I think his children would have rights to his personal wealth, no matter they are born in wedlock or not.

 

[Nice Nofret]

True - but most of the wealth is not personal, but belongs the Head of the House .. so who ever will be the next Head of the House will inherit the bulk.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Well, she's 45 years old. The chances of children having problems regarding inheritance are slim.

 

[NGalitzine]

True - but most of the wealth is not personal, but belongs the Head of the House .. so who ever will be the next Head of the House will inherit the bulk.

Isn't the next heir, Prince Robin, also married unequally but he is not covered by the late Fursts will as he is not a direct heir.