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  #41  
Old 12-07-2012, 08:36 PM
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Well,Sangre_Real016,you opened up now a very interesting subject
The last member of the family was in fact Princess Mary,Duchess of Montagu(1689-1751)...
.
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  #42  
Old 12-07-2012, 08:46 PM
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Thank you, Sangre Real for explaining the various parts of the Gotha, a subject I am entirely new to.
Well I can see that my medieval ancestors had the qualifications you give to be noble, i.e., they earned their large estates in Scotland by service to Matilda in the war of succession, and to the Stuarts, who were their leaders, and to Kings David and William the Lion. Some records say Peter de Pollock (my "uncle" many times removed) had more wealth than the King of Scotland. Also gave to monasteries such as Paisley and Melrose, where his and his brothers' names were recorded as donors. His successors, who were all women for three generations, also have medieval donor records. The Pollocks lost most of their power in the wars against the English, usually fighting for Stuart causes, and vanished into relative obscurity, but the title "Lady of Rothes" came down to modern times, after the three-in-a-row women who held the title earned by Peter de Pollock. So I guess they were quite noble, but not remembered much today. I have read about them for years, and their Stuart loyalty, even though I never heard of them until l7 years ago when I discovered I had the Stuart-connected genetic ailment. What a heritage to have, good and bad.
So to be noble is dependent on whether anyone remembers you, or whether, too, you want to be remembered as a grand lord and knight. I think they did not want to be remembered, and disappeared into the night.
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  #43  
Old 12-07-2012, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
also, if i am not mistaken, Emperor Joseph I made John Churchill the sovereign Prince of Mindelheim in 1714.. sadly, he left no male heir.. now, if the Churchill's "royal" titles were to have been passed down to its senior descendants, which by the way were the Spencers, then, as a male line descendant of Anne Spencer, Countess of Sunderland aka HSH Princess Anne Churchill of Mindelheim's second oldest son, then Diana could have been a princess in her own right.. a princess of equal status to any sovereign house.. am i correct? what do you think?

Could have and would be interesting,but the Duke of Marlborough(John) was tricked by the Germans and therefore prevented his family of later becoming one of the equal families...even if the female succession was recognized they would still be in part III of Gotha were they are now(I think)...

And here is why:

It was the truth that he was awarded with the title of Fürst von Mindelheim and with this title he also acquired the rest of the requirements other reigning Princes within the Empire had:

1-holding of an immediate fief of the Empire(Mindelheim Principality in Swabia which belonged to HRE)

2-having a vote and a seat in the Imperial Diet which comes with a certain existing sovereign territory someone holds

3-direct participation in the expenses of the Empire

And he had all this from 1704 until 1714 when his Princedom of Mindelheim was lost/annexed to Bavaria without any kind of compensation...

Even before his first creation Prussian King wanted to offer the title of Fürst von Donauwöth within Prussia,but it just didn't happen as he wanted to be a reigning Prince within Holy Roman Empire,not Prussia,with it's full rights...

Because of this annexation after 1714 he was awarded the County of Mellenburg which was raised to Principality for him by Emperor Charles VI...So,from 1714 until 1722 he was just Fürst von Mellenburg(Honorary title),which meant that the teritorry of Mellenburg was before that only a County in Upper Austria which was raised to Principality,but the territory did not have other requirements,meaning that it didn't have a seat and vote in Imperial Diet and only had a vote and a seat in comital councils(which Mellenburg area represented).

This made his situation almost the same as Princes Kinsky or Paar,who held honorary,but not sovereign titles of Fürst of the Empire,meaning that their territories only had a vote and a seat in Comital Coucils of the Empire,as they were not sovereign...

John Churchill,Duke of Marlborough tried to intervene about this kind of situation but the Emperor Charles VI was apologetic about this,unlike his late brother Josef I who gave him his first title of Fürst von Mindelheim with it's territory...

He also tried through the Prussian King and his representative Prince von Anhalt-Dessau to secure the title of Fürst/Fürst for his female line descendants(who would continue to be Dukes of Marlborough),but the other German Princes were against as they watched on his family as a mere English upstart landed gentry...It was now clear that with the death of his last daughter,the line and the German titles were to be extinct...

Even if he had secured succession though a female for his German titles,his family would still with Mellenburg possession and honorary Princely title fall into part III of the Gotha(where his family already is) which would also put him with the families like Kinsky,Paar,Ligne,Hatzfeld etc.
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  #44  
Old 12-08-2012, 10:23 AM
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Could have and would be interesting,but the Duke of Marlborough(John) was tricked by the Germans and therefore prevented his family of later becoming one of the equal families...
i see, so the Churchills were once equal to other sovereign houses but was later tricked and was demoted to an honorary title of prince, amd sadly, even his legitimate heirs were denied the honors as German families think of them as upstart Englishmen.. funny, coz from what i have heard, the old noble families in England views the royal family back then as "Middleclass Hanoverians" or most insultingly, "German beggars"..

but wouldn't make the current Spencers (as the legitimate heirs of the sovereign Chuchills of Mindelheim) technically similar to that of the Bagrations, or other once ruling families such as the Birons, Dadianis, Boncopagni-Ludovisis, O'Donnells, etc as they actualy once ruled as sovereigns? and doesn't it state in the Gotha that once ruling families should technically be equal to current ruling ones like the House of Orleans or the deposed House of Bourbon-Parma who's scion Princess Zita of Bourbon-Parma married Emperor Charles? and even if the Churchills were upstarts, their heirs, the Spencers is an ancient family.. it seems to me that the Gotha is largely favoring German dynasties..
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  #45  
Old 12-08-2012, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Mariel View Post
Thank you, Sangre Real for explaining the various parts of the Gotha, a subject I am entirely new to...
no problem.. quite a colorful family there..
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  #46  
Old 12-08-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Well,Sangre_Real016,you opened up now a very interesting subject

The last member of the family was in fact Princess Mary,Duchess of Montagu(1689-1751)...
thanks.. but, wait, doesn't Princess Mary, Duchess of Montagu died in 1729? while Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Bridgewater died in 1738.. among John Churchill's daughters, i thought Anne died first while Elizabeth died last..

Princess Anne, Countess of Sunderland died. 1716
Princess Mary, Duchess of Montagu died. 1729
Princess Henrietta, 2nd Duchess of Marlborough died. 1733
Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Bridgewater died. 1738

did i got them wrong?
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  #47  
Old 12-08-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
thanks.. but, wait, doesn't Princess Mary, Duchess of Montagu died in 1729?

did i got them wrong?
If you read wikipedia,you did According to wikipedia,she died in 1729,while in fact she died in 1751.

Mary Montagu (Churchill), Duchess of Montagu (1689 - 1751) - Genealogy

- Person Page 10560

Lady Mary Churchill - I11286 - Individual Information - PhpGedView
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  #48  
Old 12-08-2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
.. funny, coz from what i have heard, the old noble families in England views the royal family back then as "Middleclass Hanoverians" or most insultingly, "German beggars"..
As the members of ancient House of Este,they certainly were not middle class Their earliest known ancestor Adalbert was already a Markgraf von Mainz,existing some 150 years before William the Conqueror had even started his reign in England in 1066...

While son of a lawyer Sir,like the Duke of Marlborough was,who started his career as a Stuart page,was for most German Princely families an upstart,like in Germany would be a son of an Edler Herr von X,who would like to become a ruling Prince of the Holy Roman Empire...

There is an anecdote about the conversation between Prince Philipp and Lady Diana,the Princess of Wales:as Tina Brown noted in her biography of Diana,upon being threated by Prince Phillip:"If you don't behave,my girl, we'll take your title away."Diana is alleged to have replied:"My title is a lot older than yours,Philip."Diana was only too happy to remind Philip that while he may be married to the Queen, the Spencer family has been titled since the 1500’s.

Of course,either said or not said,this was not true

This means that Philip's earliest known ancestor Egilmar I,Count von Lerigau already had a title in 10th century,being born some 200 years before House of Spencer was even first time mentioned...yet titled!
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  #49  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
...but wouldn't make the current Spencers (as the legitimate heirs of the sovereign Chuchills of Mindelheim) technically similar to that of the Bagrations, or other once ruling families such as the Birons, Dadianis, Boncopagni-Ludovisis, O'Donnells, etc as they actualy once ruled as sovereigns?
Well,the problem is that all those families you mentioned(Bagration etc.) were one agnatic(same male-line) family with collateral branches existing,while the heirs of the Marlborough family were Spencers,who were only heirs,but different agnatic family members and that's the main problem for that kind of theory...

For example,your sisters son can be your heir,but can't be agnatic member of your family,unless your sister married her paternal male-line cousin...

This latter would be the case of Diana,Duchess of Cadaval who married Prince Charles d'Orleans,with both belong to one same agnatic family,House of Capet...

And yes,you are right,Gotha created this kind of system which was followed by almost every Imperial and Royal family with only few exceptions made by the Head of the family...

By doing this they generally and formally acknowledged Gotha and set an example to other lesser or former ruling(mediatized) families to have the strict equality system which some still follow today very strictly...

Even today some mediatized families are still "victims" of this system which they still follow:Leiningen and Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg cases...
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  #50  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
There is an anecdote about the conversation between Prince Philipp and Lady Diana,the Princess of Wales...
yes.. i have read that book by Tina Brown.. but you cannot blame her, the Spencers believe that their family tree stretches back since 920 AD from Norman noblemen.. since there are no records either falsifying or confirming their claim from such line, their family has came to believe of such pedigree.. one can only assume, i guess.. i have also read that Diana kept reminding William that his Spencer lineage stretches for a thousand year.. who knows what Diana meant.. maybe she was pointing out his title as Duke of Edinburgh which was just given to him in 1947..
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  #51  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Well,the problem is that all those families you mentioned(Bagration etc.) were one agnatic(same male-line) family with collateral branches existing,while the heirs of the Marlborough family were Spencers,who were only heirs,but different agnatic family members...
i see.. but haven't there that female line descendants were allowed the same distinction like Empress Maria Theresa or Queen Victoria.. if ever the Empire allowed Princess Anne, Countess of Sunderland to succeed the title and sovereignty of her father, wouldn't it be possible to be passed down to her descendants like that of Louise Hippolyte, Princess of Monaco?
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  #52  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:42 PM
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Princess Mary of Denmark is of Scottish descent (i read). The Danes will now trump the Brits in terms of Scottish blood. Not royal Scottish, of course.

The present family of Wittelsbach is considered to be the true descendants of the Stuarts, according to at least one wing of the "Jacobites". The present Duke in Bavaria, Franz, is considered to be the heir. He is childless. so his brother Max will inherit, and then the eldest of Max's daughters, Sophie of Leichtenstein. Her son Josef Wenzel is therefore the youngest heir on that line. I brought this up because of the fact that Sophie's mother is a Douglass, descendant from Scots. Duke Max found his wife from among the Scottish Douglasses who have lived in Sweden for generations. The article I read said that these Douglasses were advisors to the King of Sweden; of course I don't know if that is true any more. But Duke Max's wife is of Scottish descent.

Further Scottish musings: Princess Alice of Gloucester was born and raised in Scotland and descended from the Douglas, Stuart, and other families of Scots history.
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  #53  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:51 PM
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i believe Franz, Duke of Bavaria's claim came from his descent from Princess Henrietta of England, daughter of Charles I of England making him the current senior co-heir-general of King Charles I of England and Scotland..

i believe there are senior yet illegitimate lines, one is James II's descendants from his only son to have left descendants, which leads today to the Dukes of Alba in Spain..
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  #54  
Old 12-08-2012, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
i see.. but haven't there that female line descendants were allowed the same distinction like Empress Maria Theresa or Queen Victoria...
Yes,of course,but those were just few exceptions,with an approval of the reigning monarch and also the approval of other reigning Princes...

Of course,there were some other exceptions,like the one that Prince zu Putbus could become female line descendant and member of Wyllich und Lottum family...but they were not a reigning nor a mediatized family!

Remember that Maria Theresia had to fight for years before majority of other powerful rulers in the region acknowledged something her father,The Emperor already decided before his death...So,without the word of other Princes,Dukes and Electors even the word of an Emperor could be disputed...

As for Queen Victoria,Great Britain allowed it,while in Germany-Hanover it wasn't allowed...so,everything depended on the already established House Laws of succession.
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  #55  
Old 12-08-2012, 06:52 PM
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As for the Duke of Marlborough title,it was him who wanted to be Prince of the Holy Roman Empire and approached the Emperor through his envoy Count Wratislaw von Mitrowitz...The Emperor was not at all thrilled and because he felt obliged to the great soldier to give him at least an honorary title he asked Queen Anne for the formal approval which was "duly given",according to the letters of Count Wratislaw to the Emperor from the 22.August 1704.

But,the Duke did not want an "empty title",but an effective one and that's when they started to search for an empty land which was also Principality-just for him.They found Mindelheim which was bought by the Elector of Bavaria in the 17th century,but which Bavaria lost in recent wars. They awarded it to John Chruchill,now the Prince von Mindelheim,who again lost his Principality to Bavaria without compensation some ten years later. But,this time,Emperor Charles VI felt obliged to his German dominated Princes,who all,according to the notes from the Memoirs of the Duke of Marlborough,looked upon the Duke as "only a small country gentleman,from a country at the very edge of Europe" and wrote an apologetic letter to him,but did not do anything to restore his seat and vote in Imperial Diet. Of course,at that time Marlborough was not the force in Europe he used to be and did not dare to militarily defend his rights as an Imperial Prince against Bavaria and therefore had to settle for anything Empire had offered to him as a sort of consolation.

He later protested his male law succession for an Imperial title through Prince von Anhalt-Desau,but to no avail...and the line died out with his daughter,Princess Mary in 1751.

You are right,his descendants could have become mediatized,if,for example,the female-line succession was officially permitted and the family after acquired a sovereign part of Imperial land until the official mediatization...This only could have made Lady Diana "equal" as the family would fall into II part of Gotha-Almanach ,but even without requiring sovereign land if the family were allowed to use female succession of the title,Diana could have been Princess in her own right...even though,not equal!

But,again,it is a question which of the sisters would be "the one" who would transmit the imperial title if female succession have been permitted...

Maybe it could have been settled similarly to the Bentinck case,where an elder son succeeded English titles(Earl and Duke of Portland) and the issue of the younger brother were the Imperial Counts-reichsgrafen of Bentinck-Aldenburg?

And the family separated until Timothy Bentinck became Duke of Portland,whose great-grandfather Henry Charles deferred his rights as the Head of the Bentinck-Aldenburg family in favor of his brothers in 1874 upon marrying Harriet Eliza Cathcart McKerrell,a woman whose family McKerrels of the Hillhouse belonged to the old landed gentry lairds dating back from the 15th century,but in the eyes of the House of Bentinck she wasn't good enough...

Here is a picture of the manor McKerrell of Hillhouse family possessed which dates back from 1671:
http://www.hillhouse.co.uk/assets/im...-Hillhouse.jpg

Unlike Charles-Henry,his younger Bentinck brothers made "respectable" marriages to Baroness Maria Cornelia van Heeckeren van Wassenaer,Countess Helene zu Waldeck und Pyrmont and Countess Luise van Bylandt who,in the eyes of the Bentinck-Aldenburg House Laws have been good enough for them to succeed as the Head of the House and as Imperial Count...

So,here we again have a case of a mediatized family which restricted a male family member of succeeding to the title because he has made "indecent" marriage with a woman whose family of old landed gentry lairds(Scottish title below a Baron and above an Esquire) was not good enough for the Imperial Count of Bentinck-Aldenburg,but whose family was good enough for the Duke of Portland
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  #56  
Old 12-10-2012, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
You are right,his descendants could have become mediatized,if,for example,the female-line succession was officially permitted and the family after acquired a sovereign part of Imperial land until the official mediatization...This only could have made Lady Diana "equal" as the family would fall into II part of Gotha-Almanach ,but even without requiring sovereign land if the family were allowed to use female succession of the title,Diana could have been Princess in her own right...even though,not equal!
i see.. so technically, Lady Diana was the last person to have married into the British Royal Family to have descended in the male-line from the heirs of a once sovereign family since Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark?

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
But,again,it is a question which of the sisters would be "the one" who would transmit the imperial title if female succession have been permitted...

Maybe it could have been settled similarly to the Bentinck case,where an elder son succeeded English titles(Earl and Duke of Portland) and the issue of the younger brother were the Imperial Counts-reichsgrafen of Bentinck-Aldenburg?
well, possibly.. Charles Spencer would inherit the Dukedom of Marlborough (like he did) and John Spencer could have inherited the Principality of Mindelheim (sovereign) or the plain Princedom of Mellenburg..

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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
So,here we again have a case of a mediatized family which restricted a male family member of succeeding to the title because he has made "indecent" marriage with a woman whose family of old landed gentry lairds(Scottish title below a Baron and above an Esquire) was not good enough for the Imperial Count of Bentinck-Aldenburg,but whose family was good enough for the Duke of Portland
true.. wait, did Princess Marie Amelie of Baden renounced her line of succession when she married William Hamilton, 11th Duke of Hamilton? i don't why the Germans are very particular with the equality of birth? Royal members of the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies and House of Orleans-Braganza have had Czartoryski and Sapieha wives and husbands before..

also, why is it that Princess Paola of Sapieha-Rozanska, the daughter of Princess Cristina of Orléans-Braganza is in line in the succession of the Brazilian throne while the children of Princess Maria da Gloria of Orléans-Braganza, now The Duchess of Segorbe like Dońa Sol María de la Blanca de Medina y Orléans-Braganza, 54th Countess of Ampurias is not? do they consider the House of Sapieha equal while the House of Medinaceli below them?
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  #57  
Old 12-10-2012, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
i see.. so technically, Lady Diana was the last person to have married into the British Royal Family to have descended in the male-line from the heirs of a once sovereign family since Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark?
Well,I think you are right...

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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
well, possibly.. Charles Spencer would inherit the Dukedom of Marlborough (like he did) and John Spencer could have inherited the Principality of Mindelheim (sovereign) or the plain Princedom of Mellenburg..
Doesn't have to be like that...If the sisters would split the titles,which means that the heirs of one sister would inherit just English titles,while the heirs of other sister would inherit Imperial titles,like in the Bentinck family...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
true.. wait, did Princess Marie Amelie of Baden renounced her line of succession when she married William Hamilton, 11th Duke of Hamilton?
I think that the marriage was maybe a mesalliance,but not considered morganatic by Baden family,as Princess Marie's mother was "only" a Beauharnais and also succession of Baden was permitted in 1796 to the descendants of the marriage between the Grand Duke Karl Friedrich and Caroline Geyer von Geyersberg,a woman whose father was only a German nobleman,while her mother was Countess von Sponeck...

But,as the Emperor of Holy Roman Empire allowed it,there was no further question...

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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
i don't why the Germans are very particular with the equality of birth?
Well,I think that they had this common wide spread thought of being higher because of their sovereign status within the Empire,no matter how big or small their territory was...

The other thing that simply boosted their importance as such is that other big reigning countries supplied their rulers exclusively with German Princesses and German Princes knew it,so in order to be in the marriage market all the time,they wanted to keep their standard of birth as high as they can...because,you never know when some Princess von Anhalt-Zerbst might become Empress of Russia or Princess von Wied might becombe the next Queen of Britain...

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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
Royal members of the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies and House of Orleans-Braganza have had Czartoryski and Sapieha wives and husbands before..
I think it depended on the House Law of any family...For example,something that could have been enough for the House of Bourbon might have not been good enough for the House of Hohenzollern or even for the House of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg as the late Prince stated in his testament that,apart from being equal,future wife of his Heir must be also of Arian blood...and Czartoryski and Sapieha would not fit into that category-maybe,just maybe if their wives were of Arian blood and some lawyers could make the case...That's why Prince Gustav von S-W-B is not getting married to his girlfriend Carina who,apart from not being noble is of Swedish and Mexican descent...

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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
...why is it that Princess Paola of Sapieha-Rozanska, the daughter of Princess Cristina of Orléans-Braganza is in line in the succession of the Brazilian throne...
Well,it's hard to answer to this question,but obviously they are treated more or less higher as the families of Ligne and Sapieha were a little bit more independent though the history,while the House of Medinaceli,no matter how illustrious it is,was always in the service of the King of Spain,meaning it was always his subject and descended from an illegitimate branch of the House de Foix...But,that's just my thought.

What do you think the other reason would be?
.
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  #58  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:59 PM
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...the House of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg as the late Prince stated in his testament that,apart from being equal,future wife of his Heir must be also of Arian blood...
well, that doesn't sound very nice.. lol.. then does that include all nobles who has Mexican blood such as the princes and princesses of Monaco, the Ducal Family of Tetuan, and the exiled House of Iturbide.. some of the noble families in mexico can trace their descent from the earliest kings of Spain during the Visigothic era..

Quote:
...the House of Medinaceli,no matter how illustrious it is,was always in the service of the King of Spain,meaning it was always his subject...But,that's just my thought. What do you think the other reason would be?
hmmm.. possibly, but to think that the House of Medinaceli are the descendant of the Counts of Foix and they are the eldest legitimate descendants of King Alfonso X of Castile but were usurped by Sancho IV of Castile.. they are descendants of a sovereign house.. but, anyways, the House of Orleans-Braganza probably has their reason..
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  #59  
Old 12-10-2012, 07:57 PM
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then does that include all nobles who has Mexican blood such as the princes and princesses of Monaco, the Ducal Family of Tetuan, and the exiled House of Iturbide.. some of the noble families in mexico can trace their descent from the earliest kings of Spain during the Visigothic era..
Yes,it does...Obviously,when he wrote his will Fürst zu S-W-B was not interested how old ones family is,but of what "stock" and what rank it is...So,only equal family under 19th century status and of Arian descent...I also think Gotha III family would also be acceptable as Margarethe,the wife of the Fürst in question was a daughter of Duke d'Otrante and having "only" 5 out of 8 nearest ancestors of "Arian blood"...

Prince Gustav's former girlfriend was a well-off French girl Elvire Pasté de Rochefort,who can trace her ancestry from an ancient Mavrocordato family of Greek phanariote Princes,but that was also not good enough...

If he doesn't have an heir,due to requirements in the will,the title of Fürst could pass on to his cousins Karl-Albrecht and Albrecht-Frederik,who are brothers of Princess Anna of Bavaria and later to the sons of Prince Hubertus von S-W-B and Countess Irina zu Solms-Baruth or sons of Prince Christian Peter and Princess Felizitas Reuss,later maybe to the son of Prince Richard Casimir and Countess Luise Batthyany von Nemet-Ujvar...

There are still very high-standing marriages in the family...


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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
hmmm.. possibly, but to think that the House of Medinaceli are the descendant of the Counts of Foix and they are the eldest legitimate descendants of King Alfonso X of Castile but were usurped by Sancho IV of Castile.. they are descendants of a sovereign house.. but, anyways, the House of Orleans-Braganza probably has their reason..
Possibly the same reason why,for example,Imperial House of Russia didn't/doesn't "count" many Russian Princely families which belong to the House of Rurik,which ruled and was sovereign in Russia at the time Romanovs have not even set their foot out of the woods...

Some of those Princely families are Gagarin,Obolenski,Oginski,Volkonsky,Ostrogski,Gorchakov,Repnin,Shakhovskoy,Lobanov-Rostovsky...

But,as they lost their sovereign status centuries ago and they were subjects of the Emperor also,no matter how old their families were they just couldn't be considered as equal...

So,probably,the same pattern is for Orleans-Braganca family...

As you now mentioned Princess Paola Maria Sapeiha-Rozanska - it was her grandmother's greatest wish that she becomes the next Duchess of Feria.But nothing came out of it and Princess Esperanza died before seeing her married to Prince Constantin Sviatopolk-Czetwertynski,descendant of the Kings of Prussia,Great Britain,Electors of Brandenburg etc.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Sangre_Real016 View Post
...does that include all nobles who has Mexican blood such as the princes and princesses of Monaco, the Ducal Family of Tetuan, and the exiled House of Iturbide...
Maybe the House of Yturbide could get through,as it's original origins are from Navarre and as it is extinct in male line and through marriage today they are represented by the German Counts von Götzen,who for this purpose adopted the family name von Götzen-Yturbide...

Today's Head of the family is Maximilian Richard Gustav Albrecht Augustin,Count von Götzen-Yturbide who is married to Anna Rosa Maria Helena von Franceschi and has one son and two daughters...

He has also descended in male line from almost all ruling families within Empire such as Kings of Denmark,Schwarzburg,Sachsen-Weiamr,Solms,Waldburg,Wied,Erbach,Oettingen,Schönburg,Oldenburg,Pfalz,Anhalt,Holstein etc.

So,there is enough "arian descent"

Btw,I checked Sayn-Wittgenstein family laws and they say that for equal marriage it is required for a person to belong to "high nobility"...
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