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  #21  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
QMQE's ancestors wasn't "less and less noble". First Lyon married king Robert II's daughter. And you can find a lot od dukes, earls, barons, etc.

True - you can go back down different lines and fine many members of the nobility, peers, and royals. But, at the same time you also find many, many more and more commoners. Or rather, more and more lines end because the individuals become less notable - which was the point I was trying to make; the poster I was responding to was arguing that the theory that we’re all descended from Charlemagne doesn’t hold because royals and nobles only married other royals and nobles, and commoners only married other commoners.

With QEQM specifically, you see that her father was an Earl, the son of an Earl, the grandson of an Earl, and so on for a while. But, very quickly you also see “commoner” ancestors - her grandfather, the 13th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne, married Frances Dora Smith - a woman whose family was wealthy and well connected, but whose parents and grandparents were all not of the nobility.

Then you look at her mother - QEQM was the daughter of Cecilia Cavendish-Bentick, a name that at first makes you think she’s very well connected, but you actually have to go to her paternal grandparents to have the first connections to the nobility (both her paternal grandparents were the children of peers), and her maternal grandparents were not nobility at all.

And that’s without even considering the fact that Cecilia Cavendish-Bentick’s paternal grandmother, Anne Wellesley, was the illegitimately born daughter of the 1st Marquess of Wellesley and his mistress, Hyacinthe-Gabrielle Roland.
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  #22  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by King of the Jungle View Post
What is known of Meghan's non Anglo roots?
Africa is a huge continent. Does Meghan know her homeland before America?
Are there good historical records of African migration?
Meghan's Ragland ancestry has only been traced to 19th-century Georgia.

https://www.nettyroyalblog.nl/geneal...meghan-markle/

Because they were slaves (property) very little documentation exists. Now that Meghan is a member of the BRF and an icon (to Americans, at least), I suspect more extensive research will be done on her Ragland ancestry.

EDIT: After posting this I discovered Christopher C. Child published the New England Historic Genealogical Society's research on Meghan's maternal grandmother on May 18, the day before her wedding:

https://vita-brevis.org/2018/05/megh...ternal-family/
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  #23  
Old 05-25-2018, 02:59 PM
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There are vast amounts of genetic research into the ancestry of American slaves (most are from West Africa, some are from North Africa, many have both ancestries).
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  #24  
Old 05-25-2018, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
There are vast amounts of genetic research into the ancestry of American slaves (most are from West Africa, some are from North Africa, many have both ancestries).

There’s a lot of genetic research, but that’s a bit different from ancestry/genealogy; if Meghan or her mother (or someone else from Doria’s family) did a DNA test they could determine their family’s genetic origins - or where in Africa their ancestors probably came from.

What they won’t really be able to do is trace their ancestry in a similar way to how the Markles will likely be traced - you can bet that there is a researcher out there who is looking through different archives, tracing the marriages, births, deaths, and immigrations of Meghan’s paternal ancestors; and in all likelihood they’re finding the names of some of her paternal ancestors on the passenger lists of boats, as they migrated from Europe to the US.

You’re not going to find that with Meghan’s Ragland ancestors - births, deaths, marriages, are all harder to track because they weren’t documented in the same way. Nor was the migration from Africa to the US documented in a remotely comparable (or remotely traceable) way. Which is why for people of African American heritage, the 19th century is such a dead end when it comes to genealogy - it’s harder to trace slaves.
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  #25  
Old 05-25-2018, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Meghan's Ragland ancestry has only been traced to 19th-century Georgia.

https://www.nettyroyalblog.nl/geneal...meghan-markle/

Because they were slaves (property) very little documentation exists. Now that Meghan is a member of the BRF and an icon (to Americans, at least), I suspect more extensive research will be done on her Ragland ancestry.

EDIT: After posting this I discovered Christopher C. Child published the New England Historic Genealogical Society's research on Meghan's maternal grandmother on May 18, the day before her wedding:

https://vita-brevis.org/2018/05/megh...ternal-family/
I hope this fellow is able to find more information when he receives the records he requested. It's interesting that he has black ancestors living in the South during the antebellum period. He doesn't indicate whether these were slaves or freedmen, but I think we can assume they were slaves. I wonder how he is documenting marriages, because slaves were not permitted to legally married back then.

A DNA test would be helpful. In addition, he should be searching for bills of sales, probate records, and census records. The downside is that property records often did not contain the person's name. In researching my own black ancestors, I stumbled upon some of my ancestors through DNA testing and discovered folks who were descended from the slave owning part of my family, whose slaves were also undoubtedly my ancestors. Unfortunately, the names are not included on the property records.

It will be interesting to see what he comes up with, and how he finds it.
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  #26  
Old 05-25-2018, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Curbside View Post
I hope this fellow is able to find more information when he receives the records he requested. It's interesting that he has black ancestors living in the South during the antebellum period. He doesn't indicate whether these were slaves or freedmen, but I think we can assume they were slaves. I wonder how he is documenting marriages, because slaves were not permitted to legally married back then.

A DNA test would be helpful. In addition, he should be searching for bills of sales, probate records, and census records. The downside is that property records often did not contain the person's name. In researching my own black ancestors, I stumbled upon some of my ancestors through DNA testing and discovered folks who were descended from the slave owning part of my family, whose slaves were also undoubtedly my ancestors. Unfortunately, the names are not included on the property records.

It will be interesting to see what he comes up with, and how he finds it.
He does cite his sources including marriage records. At this point he's only traced the family back to the 1870 census, five years after the Civil War ended. As you point out, finding enough documentation to trace them to the antebellum period will be difficult if not impossible.

This is Meghan's matrilineal line, the mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, etc. she inherited her mitochondrial DNA from, almost unchanged from generation to generation, all the way back to Millie Jones, the first person in the genealogy. Meghan's children will have royal blood but they will inherit Millie's mitochondrial DNA.

Because of that, this is line most likely to be traced back to its African origins. DNA testing could be used in an effort to find mitochondrial DNA matches in Africa. I suspect this is why Christopher Child has concentrated on this line.
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  #27  
Old 05-25-2018, 10:33 PM
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In a way, the matrilineal line is more interesting because it is more challenging, the Markles are very much a known quantity, and the Raglands have mostly acquitted themselves well during the engagement period. This is the side of the family who didn't trade on their relationship with Meghan, and also appear to be the more humble and stable.

If they had any of Meghan's family willing to give DNA samples, they might be able to piece together through analysis of the autosomal DNA.

It does not appear he has actual marriage records yet, based on his post. He's looking primarily at the census records, where people self-report names, ages, marital status, etc. Marriages between slaves would be considered common-law. Since Millie was born in the antebellum period, if she was African-American (I assume that the column with Bs straight down is for "black") then she probably did not have a legal marriage.
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  #28  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curbside View Post
I hope this fellow is able to find more information when he receives the records he requested. It's interesting that he has black ancestors living in the South during the antebellum period. He doesn't indicate whether these were slaves or freedmen, but I think we can assume they were slaves. I wonder how he is documenting marriages, because slaves were not permitted to legally married back then.

A DNA test would be helpful. In addition, he should be searching for bills of sales, probate records, and census records. The downside is that property records often did not contain the person's name. In researching my own black ancestors, I stumbled upon some of my ancestors through DNA testing and discovered folks who were descended from the slave owning part of my family, whose slaves were also undoubtedly my ancestors. Unfortunately, the names are not included on the property records.

It will be interesting to see what he comes up with, and how he finds it.

Yes, I think it's also difficult to trace the ancestry of black Americans because all too often the fathers of the slave children where the white slave owners, and of course, no one is going to document that in detail and add them to the family tree. (Not publicly anyway. But I wouldn't be surprised if there are more detailed documents hidden somewhere - for the Elites' eyes only!)
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  #29  
Old 05-27-2018, 06:40 AM
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Thanks, Gawin, for the info about the research of Christopher C. Childs.
One benefit of Meghan becoming well known is that historians will put in some hard work to trace her family tree for her. Also, people might come out of the woodwork with oral family history.

I read Christopher's article and I am dismayed that he makes spelling mistakes.
Well, he spells the names differently than how they are spelt in the actual records that he also provides.
The documents say - Milly, Teasly, Elsey and he writes - Millie, Teasley and Elcy.
I guess the people filling in the cencus might not have spelt them the right way.
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  #30  
Old 05-27-2018, 07:33 AM
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Nevertheless, if you are a genealogist, an archivist, or a serious historical researcher of any kind, it's not up to you to 'correct' the way people spelled their names. It would make me wonder what else has been 'corrected', quite frankly.
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  #31  
Old 05-27-2018, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by King of the Jungle View Post
Thanks, Gawin, for the info about the research of Christopher C. Childs.
One benefit of Meghan becoming well known is that historians will put in some hard work to trace her family tree for her. Also, people might come out of the woodwork with oral family history.
Yes, I think you're right. A lot of research will continue to be done on Meghan's ancestry. Mr. Childs relied on published sources available online but there might be other unpublished sources available only in local archives or libraries located within Georgia. I suspect there are historians and genealogists poring over them right now.

Quote:
I read Christopher's article and I am dismayed that he makes spelling mistakes.
Well, he spells the names differently than how they are spelt in the actual records that he also provides.
The documents say - Milly, Teasly, Elsey and he writes - Millie, Teasley and Elcy.
I guess the people filling in the cencus might not have spelt them the right way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Nevertheless, if you are a genealogist, an archivist, or a serious historical researcher of any kind, it's not up to you to 'correct' the way people spelled their names. It would make me wonder what else has been 'corrected', quite frankly.
Much ado about nothing. Mr. Childs hasn't "corrected" anything. The names aren't spelled consistently in the sources he cites. For example, the 1870 census spells the names Elsey, Teasly, and Milly but the 1880 census spells them Elcy, Teasley, and Millie. The surname is spelled Teasly in Laura Teasly's 1885 marriage record.

Mr. Childs provides images of some of his sources (such at the 1870 census) but unfortunately you need a subscription to Ancestry to view the others (including the 1880 census).

Inconsistent spelling was very common. I do a lot of genealogical research myself (and subscribe to Ancestry) and I've run across legal documents that even spell the same surname two different ways.
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  #32  
Old 05-27-2018, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Much ado about nothing. He hasn't "corrected" anything. The names aren't spelled consistently in the sources he cites. For example, "Milly" in the 1870 census but "Millie" in the 1880.

Mr. Childs provides images of some of his sources (such at the 1870 census) but unfortunately you need a subscription to Ancestry to view the others (including the 1880 census).

Inconsistent spelling was very common. I do a lot of genealogical research myself (and subscribe to Ancestry) and I've run across legal documents that even spell the same surname two different ways.
Regarding names spelled differently it happens to me all the time before the mid 1800s. Sometimes it's obvious that a name has been spelled the way it's pronounced in the local dialect (the priests were often locals that inherited their parish from their father) and sometime it's spelled in a more national Swedish way and most often in a mishmash in between.
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  #33  
Old 05-27-2018, 12:00 PM
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Indeed, even people themselves were often not consistent in spelling their names (particularly in periods were lot's of people didn't know how to write)
Even just 4 generations ago, my greatgrandfather spelled his last name in 2 different ways
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  #34  
Old 05-27-2018, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Regarding names spelled differently it happens to me all the time before the mid 1800s. Sometimes it's obvious that a name has been spelled the way it's pronounced in the local dialect (the priests were often locals that inherited their parish from their father) and sometime it's spelled in a more national Swedish way and most often in a mishmash in between.
The fact that names were sometimes spelled the way they were pronounced can be very helpful. I have many German immigrants in my ancestry. The person who enumerated them on the 1870 U.S. census, who wasn't German, spelled the surnames the way they were pronounced which is very interesting to me because that's not the way family members pronounce them now. So eureka! Now I know the original German pronunciation!
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  #35  
Old 05-27-2018, 12:27 PM
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There is also a culprit that is the elephant in the room the further one goes back in history to find written records. Literacy. Although it seems strange to us today where we're all educated to read and write, it wasn't always so.

https://ourworldindata.org/literacy
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  #36  
Old 05-28-2018, 08:00 AM
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I found this video about DNA-testing prominent African Americans to find out their origins. I felt it could show some of the struggles African Americans have finding their roots. https://youtu.be/nw43kWEKjn8
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  #37  
Old 05-30-2018, 06:02 PM
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Lyon was The Queen Mother's patrilineal side. Let's try her matrilineage. It doesn't take long to get to no one.

0. HM The Queen
(father: a king/emperor, patriline to House of Wettin)
1. HM The Queen Mother
(father: an earl, patriline to 14th century Scottish nobility)
2. Cecilia Nina Cavendish-Bentinck
(paternal grandfather: a duke, patriline to 14th century Dutch nobility)
3. Caroline Louise Burnaby
(father: major-general, MP, courtier)
4. Anne Caroline Salisbury
(father: solicitor)
5. Frances Webb
(father: unknown occupation)
6. Mary Garritt
7. Anne Newland (probably - just a commoner in Gloucestershire born during Queen Anne's reign). There are likely no more leads from here.

For the record, we have the Duchess of Sussex's matrilineage back 7 generations too, to 1815. There are lots more matrilineages like this.
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  #38  
Old 06-01-2018, 05:31 AM
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I wonder if there is any connection between Angela Merkel's ancestors and those of Meghan Markle?
I read that Thomas Markle has, among others, Germain ancestry and that the family name was changed from Merkle to Markle.
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  #39  
Old 06-01-2018, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by King of the Jungle View Post
I wonder if there is any connection between Angela Merkel's ancestors and those of Meghan Markle?
I read that Thomas Markle has, among others, Germain ancestry and that the family name was changed from Merkle to Markle.
Merkel is a pretty common German surname, so a connection is not likely IMO. In any case it would be a connection to Angela Merkel's first husband, as her maiden name is Kasner.
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  #40  
Old 06-01-2018, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by King of the Jungle View Post
I wonder if there is any connection between Angela Merkel's ancestors and those of Meghan Markle?
I read that Thomas Markle has, among others, Germain ancestry and that the family name was changed from Merkle to Markle.
Meghan's Markle ancestors have been traced to 19th century Pennsylvania. Apparently they were of German or Swiss descent but nothing more is known at this point.
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