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  #741  
Old 01-17-2007, 05:35 AM
Heir Apparent
 
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Quote:
But IMO it was the understanding that the followers of the Diana cult would never let her rest if she used her Princess of Wales title.
The woman is obviously classy enough to accept and accommodate a situation which presented a questionable outcome. Respect!

'The Diana cult'...lol.
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  #742  
Old 01-17-2007, 05:43 AM
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Oh darling, you haven't met some of the people I've met!
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  #743  
Old 01-17-2007, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Indeed. And then she'd be known as HRH The Princess of Wales.
I know this was a reply to a deviant post I deleted but, as Charles' surname is (basically) Windsor, surely when he becomes King, he is no longer The Prince of Wales and therefore W & H also revert to Windsor, as there is no longer a PoW.
  #744  
Old 01-17-2007, 05:46 AM
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Thank God you're joking or I'd seriously explode.
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  #745  
Old 01-17-2007, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Oh darling, you haven't met some of the people I've met!
By people, you of course mean 'the type of'.

Oh sweetie, you pressume of course.lol. Though I don't judge people based on someone they admire or think fondly of.

Quote:
...or I'd seriously explode
Oh please no. The garbage collector doesn't come until Friday and my dustbin's nearly at its peak.lol.
  #746  
Old 01-17-2007, 05:53 AM
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No, I was talking about a certain group of people who I won't name but are serious loons. They accosted me last year and demanded I sign a petition for a statue in the grounds of Kensington Palace. Each one of them had Di T-shirts on and were badges etc. There's admiration and then there's, "Call the doctors we've got a nut job".
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  #747  
Old 01-17-2007, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
No, I was talking about a certain group of people who I won't name but are serious loons. They accosted me last year and demanded I sign a petition for a statue in the grounds of Kensington Palace. Each one of them had Di T-shirts on and were badges etc. There's admiration and then there's, "Call the doctors we've got a nut job".
Oh..point taken.

So did you sign and collect a badge for yourself then?.lol. No, no need to answer that.

Lets get back on track, oui?
  #748  
Old 01-17-2007, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Thank God you're joking or I'd seriously explode.
Not a pretty sight!
  #749  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:06 AM
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BeatrixFan, Elspeth and others,

the quote that Sister Morphine is quoting from is the exact same article I have been quoting from and yes it offers proof:

I shall now quote the lot of it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...535536,00.html


Quote:
Camilla Parker Bowles will automatically become Queen when the Prince of Wales succeeds to the throne unless there is a change in the law, the Government confirmed tonight.

NI_MPU('middle');The Department for Constitutional Affairs admitted legislation would be needed no matter what Camilla wished to call herself when Charles becomes King, to prevent this happening. [Frothy - ie to prevent her becoming Queen, not to make her PC in addition]
It is believed to be the first time that the Government has acknowledged this stance on the record.

Clarence House has previously insisted that the Government agreed with its view, taken from legal advice, that it was only a convention for the wife of the King to be known as Queen. The Prince's aides did admit, when the royal engagement was announced, that legislation might be needed to tidy the issue up later on.
Mrs Parker Bowles will be known as the Duchess of Cornwall after her marriage at Windsor on April 8 and intends to take the title Princess Consort when the Prince accedes the throne.


A Department for Constitutional Affairs spokeswoman confirmed that legislation would be needed for Camilla not to become Queen automatically on Charles's succession.
"I think traditionally that's probably the case because in all similar circumstances in the past in past royal marriages that is what has happened," said the spokeswoman.
"But I think she is not going to be referred to as Queen, she will be referred to as the Princess Consort." Asked about the position of other countries where the Prince of Wales would become head of state on his succession, the spokeswoman replied: "I think you are right in thinking it would require legislation for her not to be Queen."


Tony Blair's official spokesman said: "The position at the moment is limited to what the title would be on her marriage. In terms of any future events, let's wait until future events arise."

On the question of whether Mrs Parker Bowles would automatically become Queen in the absence of legislation, the spokesman added: "I'm not disputing what you have said." [Frothy - but legislation, again, needed only to strip her of being Queen, not for PC to be added]


A Clarence House spokesman said tonight: "With any legal situation there are always different views.
"If the Government said legislation would be needed it wouldn't be a problem. It can easily be done in the Civil List Act. "This is something which is a long way in the future, we hope."
Earlier t
he Government confirmed that the marriage will not be "morganatic", which means that the couple's decision not to call her Queen Camilla will have no legal standing. [Frothy - this bit scares me - does this mean Charles is in fact prepared to have legislation on the books taking even the legal status of Queen from Camilla? Sounds like it :( ]

continues

Quote:
Christopher Leslie, Constitutional Affairs Minister, confirmed the status of the marriage in a written Commons reply to Labour backbencher Andrew Mackinlay.
The Thurrock MP asked whether "the proposed marriage of HRH the Prince of Wales to Camilla Parker Bowles is morganatic". Mr Leslie replied: "No."
NI_MPU('middle');Mr Mackinlay said: "This is absolutely unequivocal, that she automatically becomes Queen when he becomes King."
Mrs Parker Bowles will be known as the Duchess of Cornwall after her marriage and Princess Consort when the Prince of Wales succeeds to the throne.
Mr Mackinlay said that legislation would be needed in 17 parliaments around the world, where the British monarch is head of state, for the change to be made.
"I’m perfectly happy for the Prince of Wales to marry whoever he likes, but altering the constitution is Parliament’s business and this does require an alteration to the constitution," he said. "It shouldn’t be done for one man and one man alone.
Asked about the position of other countries where the Prince of Wales would become head of state on his succession, the spokeswoman replied: "I think you are right in thinking it would require legislation for her not to be Queen."

So there we are. The Department of Constitutional Affairs admits, as was also said in the Panorama programme posted by BeatrixFan, as we have all agreed ad nauseam on this thread, that for Camilla to be anything other than Queen legislation will be required.

But as another poster points out a page or so back, legislation is not needed to create titles. As BeatrixFan so crossly said "End of." Legislation is never needed to create a title. Nothing but letters patent are needed to create a title.

Therefore as long as it is commonly accepted - and all authorities accept it - that Camilla is legally Queen, the King may also create her a Princess in her own right and she can then use that lesser title. She is Queen in his right due to her marriage.

Queens may and do bear other titles in their own right, usually inherited ones they brought to the marriage, eg Eleanor of Acquitaine, Archduchess of Acquitaine.

In fact the Panorama bolsters my case on this. It shows MPs debating and constitutional experts agreeing only that legislation is needed to take away the title of Queen. Not to make her Princess Consort. Jonathan Dimbleby says that she will definitely be Queen but still be known as Princess Consort - which is exactly what the Palace and Clarence House says on their websites today, and what is commonly understood to be the case on the UK.

So there you have it. Exactly as I have always said, legislation is needed to remove the rank of Queen. No legislation is needed to create her Princess Consort in addition.

In the UK, we don't use legislation to create titles.

BranchQ, I would be interested in the source or proof for your post that the Queen may not hold an additional and lesser title in her own right?
  #750  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by love_cc
People do not have short memories. As a matter of fact, Camilla is Prince Charles's legal wife now. Realistic people should accept the truth that Camilla will be Queen Consort when Charles succeeds after his mother. It is a general rule and I think people with general ideas about the history of British kings and Queens shall have knowledge on that.
Clarence House made their mistake in the later part of the statement and that's it. As Robert Lacey said, he noticed the wording of "intend" and he thought that part is interesting because it implied that Charles will be the King rather than the Princess Consort matter. He is a historian and he knows that Camilla will be Queen.
You have clearly missed my point. I am not disputing that Camilla is Charles' legal wife nor that she will become Queen Consort when he succeeds his mother.

My comment was about the statement released by him and his wife announcing Camilla's future title when Charles becomes king. That title was "Princess Consort".

If this title is not to be used, then the prince and his wife should clarify this as soon as possible, as they should if any other erroneous statement has been made.

I do not accept that Charles' office issues press releases of this nature without him approving them first.
  #751  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:14 AM
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Well of course they do but don't tell me that you honestly believe everything they say? They said George V had died peacefully in his sleep when in fact, his doctor had finished him off. They say what sounds pretty and fits with the image most of the time.
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  #752  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Exactly as I have always said, legislation is needed to remove the rank of Queen. No legislation is needed to create her Princess Consort in addition.
Frothy, do you mean to say that this debate, which has raged over 11 pages and precisely 213 posts, has been resolved in two sentences?
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  #753  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:26 AM
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Avreenah, thank you!

Just about everybody accepts that Camilla will be known as Princess Consort when the Queen dies. The govt says so. Buck/Clarence House say so on their official websites. The BBC says so. The Times says so. Everybody says so!

Except TRF posters!

Look, there are a sizeable body of so-called "experts", some trotted out on that Panorama slot, that say that the marriage wasn't legal and Camilla is still Mrs. Camilla Parker-Bowles - and they are using the same arguments BranchQ has been advancing, that of precedent. There was no precedent for a member or the BRF to marry in a registry office and it was specifically forbidden in two Marriages Acts and Princess Margaret was not allowed to marry because of just this rule. The "law" said no, legislation required? To overturn the precedent?

It absolutely wasn't. They used the Human Rights Act, an amorphous blob of cover-all law and Parliament went through no sessions.

But today, anybody want to argue that she isn't the Duchess of Cornwall?

As long as Camilla remains Queen, legislation is not needed. Just a letters Patent. 'Her Majesty the Queen is also gazetted in the additional style of Her Royal Highness the Princess Consort and will use the same.... Her Royal Highness will retain all her rights and precedence as Queen" or words to that effect.

Problem solved! No laws needed!

Precedence is a flimsy reed. If precedence had held legal force Camilla would not now be Duchess due to her wedding being a civil ceremony.
  #754  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:30 AM
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Warren!

Two sentences.... back up by about 500 pages of prior posts, or in this case, a long and dull article from the Times and a longer and duller BBC Panorama programme (which post-dates it, March vs October '05, proving that post-wedding nothing had changed).

And then there is the small matter of the unchanged official position of the BRF on their websites, which f course are .gov websites.

Hey, I have an idea. Shall I write to the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs and see what he says. I could submit the reply to a an admin, if they guarantee my own name/email address will remain confidential, and we could then post it.

Not that I don't love going round endlessly on this subject smile:
  #755  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:32 AM
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And so we're back to the beginning again. She won't be known as the Princess Consort. This is what we've spent 11 pages trying to explain to you. They may have said that but they have since told us that it's an impossibility without legislation. That's the whole point. We're saying that she can't be Princess Consort without an act of parliament and thats what Buckingham Palace and Clarence House have since said, with the total and full backing of the Department of Constitutional Affairs. Do we really have to go through all this again? It needs an act of parliament. It doesn't just need a Letters Patent at all. Lord Falconer has explained all of this, his aides and legal team have explained it ad nauseum. He explained it at length to Gyles Brandreth and it's in Gyles's book - Charles and Camilla ; Portrait of a Love Affair. Maybe we should just agree that in your world she'll be Princess Consort and in the real world she'll be Queen Camilla because that's what she'll be and only an act of parliament will change that, an act of parliament we will never see passed through the House of Lords or introduced by a socialist government.
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  #756  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Hey, I have an idea. Shall I write to the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs and see what he says. I could submit the reply to a an admin, if they guarantee my own name/email address will remain confidential, and we could then post it.
Well you told us you had inside information that said an act of parliament wasn't needed so don't write to the SoS for Const. Affairs, just give us a statement from your source in the department that we can verify and then we'll happily ignore all the evidence stacked up against your argument.
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  #757  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:35 AM
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BeatrixFan

Quote:
They may have said that but they have since told us that it's an impossibility without legislation. That's the whole point. We're saying that she can't be Princess Consort without an act of parliament and thats what Buckingham Palace and Clarence House have since said, with the total and full backing of the Department of Constitutional Affairs.
I really don't know if you are just trying to pull my chain, or what.

Nobody has said that. It doesn't say that in the article above, it doesn't say that in Panorama, the Lord Chancellor did not say that, and Buck/Clarence House have never said that.

Where? Please, can you cite a source? What I am quoting says the exact opposite to what you are saying. She can't be Princess Consort instead of Queen without an Act, but that's not what we are discussing here. We are discussing as well as.
  #758  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:37 AM
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BeatrixFan,

You appear to refuse to accept the fully sourced, linked-to right above you statement by the Dept. of Constitutional Affairs that legislation is only needed to deny her the right to be Queen, not to style her Princess Consort. It's there. It's sourced. I don't get what you don't accept, do you argue that the Times made up the quotation?
  #759  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
BeatrixFan



I really don't know if you are just trying to pull my chain, or what.

Nobody has said that. It doesn't say that in the article above, it doesn't say that in Panorama, the Lord Chancellor did not say that, and Buck/Clarence House have never said that.

Where? Please, can you cite a source? What I am quoting says the exact opposite to what you are saying. She can't be Princess Consort instead of Queen without an Act, but that's not what we are discussing here. We are discussing as well as.
By right Camilla will be queen upon HRH Prince Charles ascension to the throne but she prefers to be as The Princess Consort instead of HM The Queen.Even though she will be addressed as HRH The Princess Consort,she will receive all the privileges as a queen not privileges as a Princess Consort.So it is just pure her preferences to be called as HRH The Princess Consort.So you can address her as either HRH The Princess Consort or HM The Queen or HM Queen Camilla.All salutation refers to only one person that is Camilla.
  #760  
Old 01-17-2007, 06:39 AM
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For the love of Joe Dolan! I'm not trying to pull your chain, I couldn't give Harold Bishop's left earlobe to be quite honest but it does puzzle me a) why you're disregarding evidence from the Lord Chancellor and his office, from Buckingham Palace and Clarence House and numerous constitutional experts and b) why you change the subject whenever we question your "source". I mean, what are we discussing here? I give up. Let someone else have a go because I'm truly confused. You call her Princess Consort, I'll call her Queen and we can all run under a bus together.
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