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  #681  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:21 AM
Jo of Palatine's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale
I
See, it is very likely that the public (those of us who support the Duchess or are better aware, aside) could feel they have been mislead and that is where the problem would arise. If that can be averted then I say take that opportunity and do it asap. If there's one family who knows a thing or two about just how fast public approval can change, then surely its the Windsor's.
You're surely right but what can they do? Removing that remark from the webpage would lead to publicity - we're not the only ones checking if that comment is still there or not. But what reason could Camilla give for her change of mind? That she now wants to be queen because she enjoys so much being HRH? There simply is no reason good enough to explain that change that would not lead to a public outcry.

The giovernment at the moment has much more urgent matters at hand than to think about Camilla's future title. There won't be legislation, I bet.
So it's going to be that status quo till the queen dies. That is the only situation when the plans of the time of the wedding can be revised. Once the public sees how Camilla comfort her grieving husband and the grieving grandsons of the then late queen, they all will support her to stay queen. She is then the queen. And I bet you'll see the experts coming out immediately saying that the queen must be crowned as is the custom.

But maybe I'm wrong in interpretating Camilla's real wished. Maybe she really does not want to be known as Princess of Wales. Maybe she does not want to become queen - but what kind of court is this going to be? Without a queen even though the king is legally married? With a young princess of Wales/duchess of Cornwall having precedence over the wife of the king? It's such a mad scheme, IMHO...
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  #682  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
You're surely right but what can they do? Removing that remark from the webpage would lead to publicity - we're not the only ones checking if that comment is still there or not. But what reason could Camilla give for her change of mind? That she now wants to be queen because she enjoys so much being HRH? There simply is no reason good enough to explain that change that would not lead to a public outcry.
Hardly unworthy of revolutionary revolt I'm sure but the power of the people is a huge thing, Jo. Again, I guess we would have to sit back and wait to see what happens.

No, its not that Camilla changed her mind (not that we are privy to what HRH thinks), rather the legalities of the situation should be brought to the wider publics knoweldge. Make it clear that at this current time it is the royal couples intent and that any further moves to execute or revoke the change shall be dealt with by the government of the period.

Quote:
Once the public sees how Camilla comfort her grieving husband and the grieving grandsons of the then late queen
I dont really warm to any idea that the Duchess' popularity shall increase by the way she comforts her family when the Queen eventually passes away. She is part of that family and one would like to think that she, herself, would be in mounring of her late mother in-law and sovereign.
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  #683  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale
I dont really warm to any idea that the Duchess' popularity shall increase by the way she comforts her family when the Queen eventually passes away. She is part of that family and one would like to think that she, herself, would be in mounring of her late mother in-law and sovereign.
That's it: she is part of "that" family who obviously did not react to the public's liking at first when it came to Diana's death. So a different handling could be well attributed to Camilla and the way her influence changed at least her husband.
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  #684  
Old 01-16-2007, 01:43 PM
milla Ca's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
For one there is no need to act rashly with this matter. The queen is still alive, she seems to be quite healthy and if her mother is an example to take into account, it could be decades till Charles accedes to the throne - if he accedes at all... (meaning that he is not getting any younger and his grand-fathers were not that old when they died: George VI. was 57 years old and died of lung cancer, while Andrew of Greece was 62 when he died of natural causes.) Mind, I don't hope it is going this way but it's still a possibility...

Times works for Charles and Camilla. It has been said at the time of the wedding that it has been Camilla's wish to remain one step behind her husband. It is certainly not something traditionalists like the queen or the POW wish themselves. But it seemed reasonable when one remembers the polls about the public's opinion prior to the wedding. At that time IMHO the most important step was to introduce Camilla into the RF and to see that she got the HRH-style without creating a public outcry. For that aim giving the public the information about a lower title for Camilla worked perfectly. Camilla is now accepted as HRH. In Scotland she is even accepted as the Duchess of Rothesay.

And the polls show that people come to like Camilla - even the media has decided that she's no longer worth inventing negative things about her. She is presented as warm-hearted, caring, compassionate and the pictures published show that the people she meets enjoy being with her. Now think about the future: who will want to strip this formidable and likeable Royal lady who so obviously makes her husband happy of a title that is hers by law? I'm convinced Clarence House already has found the right experts on constitutional law to come up to the then grieving couple and tell that that it's very difficult to get rid of the constitutional position of a queen. And then the new king and his wife will gracefully give in after polls will have shown that the public wants king Charles (or George) and his wife Camilla
And long live the king and his queen!
I agree with you, Jo!
I couldn´t go online for some time, so i just read the new discussion about an old subject...it doesn´t seems to me that the opinion of the two main groups has changed now....
But your post is a very good summary about what i´m thinking too, thank you! ( and your English is much better than mine... )
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  #685  
Old 01-16-2007, 02:23 PM
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I assume that at some point shortly after Charles accedes, there'll be some sort of announcement to the effect that the legal Pooh Bahs have looked into the legalities of the Princess Consort stuff and found that it's really quite complicated and difficult and requires consent from several other countries etc etc. And that given the increasing popularity of Camilla and the support she's shown to the King and the rest of the family, they're going to leave things as they are and have her stay as Queen Consort.

As Jo said, it doesn't seem to be practical to remove the "it is intended.." stuff from the royal website without attracting a deal of attention, so why do it? It's not as though Camilla is widely unpopular or anything, so the notion of Queen Camilla isn't really going to be the threshold to a republic.
  #686  
Old 01-16-2007, 04:25 PM
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I don't think that would wash at all, Elspeth. After all it would be impossible to credit that they only discovered there were difficulties after the accession. Such an announcement would need to come in advance, perhaps when Her Majesty becomes very old or starts to withdraw from public life like Princess Alice did.
  #687  
Old 01-16-2007, 04:38 PM
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Right, let's go back a little. A few weeks after their engagement was announced, there was a Panorama episode which focused on the marriage. It was Panorama that got in touch with the Lord Chancellor etc and discovered that the Princess Consort title could only be given if created by an Act of Parliament. Why? Right;

Camilla is HRH The Princess of Wales but has chosen to use the Duchess of Cornwall. Now, she can do that because she IS the Duchess of Cornwall. When she becomes Queen however, she will not have as a lesser title, The Princess Consort and so the title will have to be created by an act of parliament. This would make Camilla Princess Consort in Britain but it would take every other commonwealth country to agree to it to let her be known as Princess Consort in their countries. When the Queen dies, Charles immediately becomes King Charles III - before the proclamation, before the coronation - he becomes King immediately and Camilla becomes Queen Consort immediately. Therefore, you'd need an act of parliament before the present Queen dies because afterwards would simply be too late. She'd be Queen for 9-12 months and the bill would probably never make it through the Lords. The Palace know the Princess Consort title is an impossibility. Gyles Brandreth said that they were furious at the BBC for revealing that Camilla would be Queen and not Princess Consort as they had planned to keep that under wraps until Charles became King. It hasn't worked and it's been a huge blunder.

So now let us be under no illusion. Charles will be King. Camilla will be Queen. And long may they reign over us.
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  #688  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:01 PM
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I agree that that Camilla will de jure be Queen, as the rightful wedded spouse of The King. Like now, she is de jure Princess of Wales, being the rightful wedded spouse of The Prince of Wales.

But de facto, she is only always and everywhere, officially and unofficially, 'known as' The Duchess of Cornwall. The fact that both on the official site of the monarchy as on the site of The Prince of Wales, still can be read: "It is intended that The Duchess of Cornwall will use the title HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne."

Yes, 'intended', but still it are no murmurings during an interview, it is written black on white on official websites and outspoken in official statements. That makes me doubt about the future de facto situation.

This makes me think about the Netherlands, where the intention is that the spouse of the Sovereign will officially be styled HRH The Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, no matter the gender of the spouse. Will Charles, who wants to adapt monarchy to the Third Millennium, streamline the styles too, in an attempt to make it more in line with today's egalitarian views?

Such a step would however set a precedent for the wife of William and his successors...
  #689  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:04 PM
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It's the Charles II problem. You don't let parliament change the monarchy when it suits you because inevitably, they'll change it when it doesn't.
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  #690  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:15 PM
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BeatrixFan,

again, I recall no such Panorama programme, and that has been contradicted by the spokeswoman for the Dept of Constitutional Affairs. I think you're getting confused - the Act would be required to strip Camilla of her title as Queen, not to create her Princess Consort. No Acts are needed to create titles, just letters patent.

What was "revealed" at the time was the fact that without legislation Camilla would be Queen. All posters are agreed upon this point, I think.

Quote:
so the title [Princess Consort] will have to be created by an act of parliament.
Have you any proof of this to contradict the statement of the Dept of Constitutional Affairs which instead stated legislation was needed to strip Camilla of the title of Queen?

For sure, Charles will be King and Camilla will be Queen. But it is what Camilla will be known as that concerns us all.
  #691  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:20 PM
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The Panorama programme was presented by Jonathan Dimbleby and you can watch it again here;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/4303210.stm

Nobody is stripping Camilla of the title of Queen. She will still be Queen but she will be known as Princess Consort if the legislation goes through and it needs to go through because the title doesnt exist!!! It doesnt exist, it isn't there, it is not in our mortal realm, it doesn't know the light, it is a pipe dream, a plan, a suggestion - it is not one of her lesser titles now and will not be until it is created by an Act of Parliament and we were were told this by the Lord Chancellor, by people from the Department of Constitutional Affairs and by Royal aides. So no, not all posters agree with you because what you're saying is wrong. I've tried side-stepping the issue and being polite but you're not getting the message. You are wrong. An Act of Parliament IS needed for her to be Princess Consort. End of.
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  #692  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:48 PM
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Well, it's obvious that people would ask questions about this Princess Consort stuff as soon as they mentioned it. While most Britons probably don't know (or care all that much) about the difference between the Princess of Wales/Duchess of Cornwall situation and the Queen Consort/Princess Consort situation, enough people do know the difference that someone was bound to raise the issue.

Maybe the negative response to John Major's comment about a separated Diana being crowned Queen just had them so spooked that they weren't thinking straight. But this whole business is just ridiculous. They've painted themselves into a corner in a room where it was obvious before they started that there weren't any doors or windows or even a fireplace in that corner.
  #693  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:53 PM
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As Frothy said, we all agree that Camilla will be Queen and personally I would hate to see the day when she, being a Queen, would use a lesser title.
But I see no obstacles for Camilla to be known as the Princess Consort. Not be Princess Consort, just be known as such.

I think there are no rules in Britain that forbid anyone from using any title they want, unless they are impersonating someone. So Camilla could choose to be known as the Princess Consort, just as I could choose to be known as Princess of Armenia, when I am in Britain.

I don't want that to happen. But theoretically it can happen.
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  #694  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:55 PM
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Well, I'm pretty certain Australia would agree to the legislation required so there's at least one country

Its all very interesting.
  #695  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
I think there are no rules in Britain that forbid anyone from using any title they want, unless they are impersonating someone. So Camilla could choose to be known as the Princess Consort, just as I could choose to be known as Princess of Armenia, when I am in Britain.
You can't use a title you don't have and Camilla would be using a title she didn't have in place of her actual title. You can't choose to be known as Princess of Armenia in Britain - you wouldn't be allowed into the UK unless you had an Armenian version of the Deed Poll. For example, I'm changing my name via deed poll here and it's made very clear that although I'm going to be using a new name, I cannot legally be that name unless it's changed by an act of parliament but I can be known as that name. However, if I become an MP etc etc, I have to use my actual name with any titles I have. Well, that's the same for Camilla. She could be known socially as whatever she wanted to be known as but in all legal documents etc, she'd have to be cited as HM Queen Camilla and that's where it gets confusing so it's either do it properly through parliament or don't do it.
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  #696  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
You can't use a title you don't have and Camilla would be using a title she didn't have in place of her actual title. You can't choose to be known as Princess of Armenia in Britain - you wouldn't be allowed into the UK unless you had an Armenian version of the Deed Poll. For example, I'm changing my name via deed poll here and it's made very clear that although I'm going to be using a new name, I cannot legally be that name unless it's changed by an act of parliament but I can be known as that name. However, if I become an MP etc etc, I have to use my actual name with any titles I have. Well, that's the same for Camilla. She could be known socially as whatever she wanted to be known as but in all legal documents etc, she'd have to be cited as HM Queen Camilla and that's where it gets confusing so it's either do it properly through parliament or don't do it.
You've just ruined all my hopes of passing as Royalty in Britain!
Thanks for explaining, I certainly agree it would be much easier and would save loads of confusion if Camilla will be known under the title she will legally have - the Queen.
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  #697  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:33 PM
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Britain has enough old Queens to last us a lifetime without our Armenian friends posing as Duchesses and Princesses. Name changing and titles is such a complex issue - I'm finding that out. The paper work is huge for me so it'd be titanic for Camilla.
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  #698  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:36 PM
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BeatrixFan,

Let us be absolutely clear. An act of Parliament is NOT needed to create her Princess Consort whatsoever, and I have offered you proof of that from a government department spokeswoman who is concerned with just this matter. You're wrong, the Government says you're wrong, and the Royal Family also say you are wrong. End of.
  #699  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
BeatrixFan,

Let us be absolutely clear. An act of Parliament is NOT needed to create her Princess Consort whatsoever, and I have offered you proof of that from a government department spokeswoman who is concerned with just this matter. You're wrong, the Government says you're wrong, and the Royal Family also say you are wrong. End of.
They why has BeatrixFan presented evidence saying the contrary? How could Parliament NOT be involved in this?


Aren't you the person, when discussing your "source", who stated that you couldn't divulge who they are? I don't know if that counts as "proof".
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  #700  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:58 PM
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I've linked to sources: one from the relevant Govt dept and the other the Royal Family's website! A government department trumps Panorama. I'm watching the show as we speak and it is tosh - for example, if you agreed with what was in this show you would be saying the marriage itself was illegal! Despite the Lord Chancellor stating this marriage is fully legal, the Panorama "expert" says it's nevertheless not! I hardly think most of us on this thread think that her correct title is Mrs. Parker-Bowles.
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