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  #361  
Old 09-05-2006, 10:35 AM
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Elspeth,

Most regrettably I think there will be such legislation. But you could quite easily remove the monarch as the head of the C of E without disestablishing it; the Archbishop of Canterbury would then be the head. There have been a few articles in the British press about it (the possible substitution of the Archbishop for the King).
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  #362  
Old 09-06-2006, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Avalon,



Unless I am mistaken, the only legislation that would be required would be for the Princess Consort not to be queen.

For her to legally be Queen but to be known as Princess Consort would not require legislation, I think?

Does somebody know differently?

In any case, there is nothing "supposed" about the Duchess of Cornwall's future as Princess Consort. Buckingham Palace has announced it. They are the authority.

After all, have we not posted ad infinitum that Lady Louise is legally, technically, HRH Princess Louise of Wessex - and yet no legislation has been passed, she is simply known as Lady Louise (including on TRF thread headings). It is, I believe, an exact paralell.

There is a difference between the scenarios you mention and Camilla being Princess Consort.

Camilla using the title Duchess of Cornwall is fine as she is using the female form of a title that Charles holds. Charles has been Duke of Cornwall since the early hours of the 6th February, 1952. Camilla is using one of his titles.

Louise is the daughter of an earl and thus is Lady Louise. She may be entitled, as the male line granddaughter of a monarch to be HRH but she is also a Lady as are all the daughters of earls e.g. Lady Diana Spencer.


The title Princess Consort doesn't actually exist at the moment and therefore would require legislation to bring it into being.

That is the problem.

BP has used the word 'intention' with regard to Camilla's title leaving open the possibility of her using some other title.


When the question of her future titles was raised in Parliament in 2005 the reply was the she will be Queen and that legislation will be needed to deny her that title.


Not using a more senior title when given a choice is not the same as using a title that currently doesn't exist and having to have it created for you.

That is the difference between Camilla and Louise's present situations and Camilla's future situation.
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  #363  
Old 09-06-2006, 08:31 AM
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It's not just the fact the title of Princess Consort doesn't exist. The real issue is Camilla will be Queen and cannot be styled as a Princess of the UK. Legally, Parliament would have to remove her rank to allow Charles to create her a princess of the UK.

Presently, she is a princess of the UK by marriage and has styled herself after one of her husband's peerages. She holds equal rank as the wife of the heir.

This would not be the case with Princess Consort as she would hold a lesser rank than Queen, which is unprecedented and controversial.
  #364  
Old 09-06-2006, 09:46 AM
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But would it - the title - not hold an equal precedence to that of a Prince Consort and shall she not remain as is the case with all wives or husbands of the sovereign, 'the' supporting figure which at the end of the day shall be her number one priority anyhow. Whether officially (we are, most of us, aware of the lagality's of her title upon Charles's accession) known as Queen or not, Camilla will be the first lady of the land and 'if' any legislation is passed, then she would take precedence over any other member of the royal family apart from the King, just like a Queen Consort, although bearing the lesser style of Majesty and titled as a Princess of the United Kingdom.

So, in all but the style and title of Majesty and Queen, she will still be the King's consort and shall hold a rank (newly established if so) in accordance to that of the Sovereign's wife.

Please dont misinterpret what I am saying as I perfectly understand what is being said by the participants of this discussion
  #365  
Old 09-06-2006, 10:28 AM
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But when was there ever a royal Earl? Never, right, except as a lesser title?

Can somebody point me to where it states that legislation is needed to create new titles?

Legislation may well be needed to deny the rank of queen, but that is not what we are discussing. We assume she is legally queen but will be known as something else.

I want to see where legislation is required for her to choose to use the style of Princess Consort.
  #366  
Old 09-06-2006, 10:44 AM
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Actually HRH Princess Consort gives me an impression that Charles will have more than one wife at the same time and then he needs different titiles for his wives. Since Camilla is Charles's sole lawful wife now, she should be Queen when Charles inherits the throne. King's wife is Queen and we should keep the precedent. It is unreasonable to pass a legislation to deny Camilla's right to be called Queen Consort and then create her as HRH Princess Consort. Law making should not benefit only one person but a group of people. People should respect second wife's lawful rights.
  #367  
Old 09-06-2006, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Elspeth,

Most regrettably I think there will be such legislation. But you could quite easily remove the monarch as the head of the C of E without disestablishing it; the Archbishop of Canterbury would then be the head. There have been a few articles in the British press about it (the possible substitution of the Archbishop for the King).
i don't know alot of english history but i'm pretty sure more than one archbishop has lost his head (literally) for such thoughts.
politians come and go (how many prime ministers has the queen met) but the institution of the monachy is constant. politics mixing in family business imo is sickening and counter productive. When charles becomes king, camilla will be queen. period-call her whatever you want (princess consort sounds stupid imo) but they need to just accept she is queen. stop trying to get votes while hurting people who don't deserve it.
before i get blasted, in my defense i love the royal family and all this just seems to be raking over ashes that should be allowed to grow cold. )
  #368  
Old 09-06-2006, 01:02 PM
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There is another precedent, too, for somebody 'being known' for a title they do not hold, an invented title: HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. No letters patent were issued, nor was legislation passed, allowing HRH the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester to assume the first-name style of a Princess of the blood royal; the Queen said she would be known as it, could style herself as it, and the thing was done - and Princess Alice was Princess Alice until her death.

This is what I mean when I say that the current orthodoxy that legislation would be required for the queen to be known as Princess Consort and styled as merely Royal Highness is quite foundless. Buck House knows what it is doing when it says she will be known as Princess Consort. Without action from Charles to stop it, she will be.

Nobody should be in any doubt that I admire the Duchess of Cornwall and want to see her a true Queen, which she will not be unless so styled. I want to see her Princess of Wales and Queen of England. I am dismayed by the actions of the Prince of Wales over her title and style and I am looking to him to set it right.
  #369  
Old 09-06-2006, 03:02 PM
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British law is such that it will have to go through parliament if they want to call Camilla anything but Queen Consort.

If she is called anything but Queen Consort, I believe that there would be outrage from the Kings subjects.
  #370  
Old 09-06-2006, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale
But would it - the title - not hold an equal precedence to that of a Prince Consort and shall she not remain as is the case with all wives or husbands of the sovereign, 'the' supporting figure which at the end of the day shall be her number one priority anyhow. Whether officially (we are, most of us, aware of the lagality's of her title upon Charles's accession) known as Queen or not, Camilla will be the first lady of the land and 'if' any legislation is passed, then she would take precedence over any other member of the royal family apart from the King, just like a Queen Consort, although bearing the lesser style of Majesty and titled as a Princess of the United Kingdom.

So, in all but the style and title of Majesty and Queen, she will still be the King's consort and shall hold a rank (newly established if so) in accordance to that of the Sovereign's wife.

Please dont misinterpret what I am saying as I perfectly understand what is being said by the participants of this discussion
It's her husband's rank that matters from a legal point of view. Camilla is the legal wife of Prince Charles and shares his rank. Once he becomes King, she is Queen Consort and first lady of the land. You cannot be a Princess if you are legally Queen without Parliament intervening with an Act.
  #371  
Old 09-06-2006, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
But when was there ever a royal Earl? Never, right, except as a lesser title?

Can somebody point me to where it states that legislation is needed to create new titles?

Legislation may well be needed to deny the rank of queen, but that is not what we are discussing. We assume she is legally queen but will be known as something else.

I want to see where legislation is required for her to choose to use the style of Princess Consort.
Legislation is required because there is no constitutional precedent for the King's wife being anything but Queen Consort. The wife of the King is Queen and cannot hold a lesser rank as a princess of the UK because the marriage would be morganatic. As was clarified in 1936, there is no such thing for The Sovereign unless Parliament agrees to pass an Act allowing it.

For members of the royal family, the will of the Crown determines their style, rank and titles. The Sovereign is fount of honour. Legislation is not required because there is no constitutional law governing the style or title of members of the royal family. It is within the gift of the Sovereign.
  #372  
Old 09-06-2006, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
There is another precedent, too, for somebody 'being known' for a title they do not hold, an invented title: HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. No letters patent were issued, nor was legislation passed, allowing HRH the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester to assume the first-name style of a Princess of the blood royal; the Queen said she would be known as it, could style herself as it, and the thing was done - and Princess Alice was Princess Alice until her death.
It is not the same thing. Legally, she was Lady Alice Montagu-Scott as the daughter of a Duke, became HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester upon marriage to a son of the sovereign, was HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester as a widow, and was granted the style of Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester by consent of The Queen when her son married.

After her husband's death, Alice was still a Royal Highness and Princess. The Queen allowed her to style herself a princess of the UK as if she was the daughter or male-line granddaughter of a sovereign, which is fine because she was the widow of a prince of the UK.
  #373  
Old 09-06-2006, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
It is not the same thing. Legally, she was Lady Alice Montagu-Scott as the daughter of a Duke, became HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester upon marriage to a son of the sovereign, was HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester as a widow, and was granted the style of Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester by consent of The Queen when her son married.

After her husband's death, Alice was still a Royal Highness and Princess. The Queen allowed her to style herself a princess of the UK as if she was the daughter or male-line granddaughter of a sovereign, which is fine because she was the widow of a prince of the UK.
And that was very much within the traditional lines of styles, as there were two possibilities for the Dowager Duchess, as she was the mother of the next duke: being HRH The Dowager Duchess (quite old-fashioned!) or HRH Alice, Duchess of Gloucester (which sounds as if she was divorced). So allowing her to call herself HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester was a way to recognize her "value" within the RF without breaking traditions. The Queen didn't make her into HRH "The" Princess Alice....)
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  #374  
Old 09-06-2006, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
It's her husband's rank that matters from a legal point of view. Camilla is the legal wife of Prince Charles and shares his rank. Once he becomes King, she is Queen Consort and first lady of the land. You cannot be a Princess if you are legally Queen without Parliament intervening with an Act.
So pretty much like I stated

Someone mentioned outrage? Dear, I hope not. If there is, surely it will be the traditionalist factions who are as intolerable to change as the IHA of Japan. Traditions are wonderful things, please dont get me wrong, but sometimes they are meant to change or at least, be modified in a way that is believed to be appropriate to the circumstance(s) or indavidual(s) they involve. Or at least thats my take on it.lol.

Whether Queen or Princess Consort, Camilla shall be styled and titled in accordance to what is appropriate for the monarch's wife. And really, the longer it is until that day, the greater likeliness Camilla shall have of remaining HM the Queen.

A question to branchg though...

If an act/legislation does pass, does this mean that the title shall remain after Camilla's death? So say that if Kate (or whoever) marry's William, then she shall also be known as HRH the Princess Consort or shall she indeed be HM the Queen? I would think that the use of Princess Cosnort shall only be for Camilla's purpose and shall be placed in abeyance upon her passing.

Thanks
  #375  
Old 09-06-2006, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Nobody should be in any doubt that I admire the Duchess of Cornwall and want to see her a true Queen, which she will not be unless so styled. I want to see her Princess of Wales and Queen of England. I am dismayed by the actions of the Prince of Wales over her title and style and I am looking to him to set it right.

She is opting to use one of Charles's other titles as her own, out of respect to the memory of Diana, who had been the Princess of Wales. She IS the Princess of Wales, by virtue of being married to the Prince of Wales. So it's not like they told her, "You can't be this, use something else." I think that was a personal choice she made.

If that was a personal choice she made, what do you want Charles to do? Force her to adopt the style Princess of Wales?
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  #376  
Old 09-06-2006, 05:32 PM
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Branch, as you know, I dispute your assertion that there is a Prince X Duke of Y title (it's just Duke of Y). But let us not have that dispute again on this thread.

Quote:
Legislation is required because there is no constitutional precedent for the King's wife being anything but Queen Consort. The wife of the King is Queen and cannot hold a lesser rank as a princess of the UK because the marriage would be morganatic. As was clarified in 1936, there is no such thing for The Sovereign unless Parliament agrees to pass an Act allowing it.
Again, there is no question that Camilla would not legally be Queen Consort. The question is not the title but the style. She could legally be queen and yet styled as a Princess.

You also gloss over the title of Princess Alice. Whether she was a princess by marriage is immaterial. To grant her use of her own first name and 'princess' is to make her a Princess of the UK, own right - except no such law was passed and not even letters patent were granted.

Simply, the Queen decided to grant the title/style.

Legislation is not required for Camilla to use the style and lesser title of HRH the Princess Consort. Legislation is only required to deny her the rank of queen. She may choose to use her lesser style and a title granted her by the King.

Legislation will not be required for this. Buckingham Palace knows what it is about.
  #377  
Old 09-06-2006, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Legislation is not required for Camilla to use the style and lesser title of HRH the Princess Consort. Legislation is only required to deny her the rank of queen. She may choose to use her lesser style and a title granted her by the King.

Legislation will not be required for this. Buckingham Palace knows what it is about.
In a way I guess you're right. But think of the image the new king Charles would present to his subjects if he allowed for his wife to be less then queen.

I mean, it was okay that the heir to the throne on marrying his former mistress (whilst having been the center of more than one scandal) decided to not flaunt his new wife as the new "Princess of Wales" but as the "Duchess of Cornwall". It was better than nothing and in fact a big triumph for Charles and Camilla to have succeeded so far.

But for a king Charles (or George) to be married to a mere Princess Consort - now that sounds too much like a lady's companion in former times - more than a servant, of course, genteel, yes, but not really an accepted "lady" of society. But if the king cannot make the woman he loves and legally married (!)into a his "lady wife" then who can? It would be an outrageous show of helpnessness and submission to the media, a syncope of self-belittlement, something not to be taken into account for even one moment. Even if the dead Diana has proven to be larger than life: she can't take a place that was never hers but want just an option for her. And her fans (which includes me!) can't ask for auch an old mechanism like the British monarchy to bow forever their values for the sake of public relations. IMHO, of course.

As for The Prince of Wales: a lot of people honour him and his wife Camilla because these two had the decency to let the late Diana, princess of Wales be "Charles' princess" forever. The same people won't thank and honour king Charles if the king (!) humbles himself (and both Diana and Camilla) on making Camilla "king Charles' princess" when she is in fact HM the Queen (Consort). IMHO.
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  #378  
Old 09-06-2006, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale
If an act/legislation does pass, does this mean that the title shall remain after Camilla's death? So say that if Kate (or whoever) marry's William, then she shall also be known as HRH the Princess Consort or shall she indeed be HM the Queen? I would think that the use of Princess Cosnort shall only be for Camilla's purpose and shall be placed in abeyance upon her passing.
It's a very good question because the minute Parliament passes an Act formally stripping the Queen Consort of her rank and title, a constitutional precedent has been created legalizing morganatic status for the wife of the King.

I doubt very much this will ever come to pass. The Prime Minister would have to receive the consent of 16 Crown Commonwealth nations in addition to support from both sides of the bench in Parliament to pass this type of legislation.

In my opinion, the whole thing would be ridiculous and a fatal blow to the monarchy.
  #379  
Old 09-06-2006, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Frothy
You also gloss over the title of Princess Alice. Whether she was a princess by marriage is immaterial. To grant her use of her own first name and 'princess' is to make her a Princess of the UK, own right - except no such law was passed and not even letters patent were granted.

Simply, the Queen decided to grant the title/style.

Legislation is not required for Camilla to use the style and lesser title of HRH the Princess Consort. Legislation is only required to deny her the rank of queen. She may choose to use her lesser style and a title granted her by the King.

Legislation will not be required for this. Buckingham Palace knows what it is about.
A woman who marries a son or grandson of the sovereign becomes a princess of the UK by right of her marriage. Her style is taken after her husband's name, if she was not born a princess herself, and she is titled by any peerages he may hold. Her precedence flows from her rank as Her Royal Highness, not a duchess or countess as the wife of a peer ("HRH The Duchess of Gloucester"). She is both a princess of the UK and a duchess.

When Princess Marina married The Duke of Kent, she was styled HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent because she was born a princess of Greece and Denmark. When Alice married The Duke of Gloucester, she was styled HRH The Duchess of Gloucester. When Marie-Christine married Prince Michael of Kent, she was styled HRH Princess Michael of Kent. All three women are princesses of the UK through marriage and their precedence is higher than a peeress in her own right or by marriage.

In the case of Lady Diana Spencer, she was HRH The Princess of Wales (in addition to all of her secondary peerages as the wife of the heir to the throne) and Diana, Princess of Wales after divorce. Although technically no longer a princess of the UK or HRH, The Queen granted Diana precedence equal to what she enjoyed while married on state and national occasions. In addition, she retained her royal lozenge with a stylized D over a coronet, which is only granted to the children of the sovereign, and was addressed as Princess Diana by the Palace.

When Charles married Camilla, she automatically became HRH The Princess of Wales just like Diana was. Out of respect to Diana's position as the mother of the future king, Camilla chose to be styled as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay. She holds equal rank to her husband.

Once Charles ascends the throne, Camilla automatically becomes HM The Queen. She is Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not a princess of the UK. Legally, she cannot style herself HRH The Princess Consort because she is not a princess and The King has to make her one. How do you make a Queen Consort a princess?

The only way is to ask Parliament to pass legislation stripping her of her rank and title so The Sovereign can issue letters patent creating her a princess of the UK in her own right with precedence ahead of all the princesses of the blood in line of succession to the throne.

There is a very big difference here in styling yourself by one of your existing titles without affecting your rank as a princess of the UK and assuming a lesser rank as the King's consort when you are already Queen.

Hope this helped!
  #380  
Old 09-06-2006, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
It's a very good question because the minute Parliament passes an Act formally stripping the Queen Consort of her rank and title, a constitutional precedent has been created legalizing morganatic status for the wife of the King.

I doubt very much this will ever come to pass. The Prime Minister would have to receive the consent of 16 Crown Commonwealth nations in addition to support from both sides of the bench in Parliament to pass this type of legislation.

In my opinion, the whole thing would be ridiculous and a fatal blow to the monarchy.
Thanks for you reply branchg

Although we respectfully disagree on the matter, the likeliness of such a legislation is probably very small.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
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