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  #421  
Old 05-21-2012, 04:57 AM
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O.k. So I am at a loss. Camilla has to curtsey because she is not royal as does Catherine and Charlene. But Charlene has to curtsey to Camilla because she is married to the heir to the throne? But what about Albert? He is the sovereign of Monaco. He is not a king but he is a ruler. That would put Charlene in a higher position wouldnt it? Im so confused. So what is the protocol in a situation like this?
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  #422  
Old 05-21-2012, 05:06 AM
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O.k. So I am at a loss. Camilla has to curtsey because she is not royal as does Catherine and Charlene. But Charlene has to curtsey to Camilla because she is married to the heir to the throne? But what about Albert? He is the sovereign of Monaco. He is not a king but he is a ruler. That would put Charlene in a higher position wouldnt it? Im so confused. So what is the protocol in a situation like this?
Camilla, Kate and Charlene are now very much royals, by marriage.
The protocol is actually pretty simple (for most European countries):

- Camilla has to curtsey to all those who are of higher rank than she is. That includes all Monarchs and their spouses (such as King Harald and Queen Sonja of Norway), as well as Heirs Apparent to the Throne (such as Crown Princess Victoria or Prince Felipe). She doesn't have to curtsey to wives of other Crown Princess (such as Crown Princess Maxima) because they are her equals. Everyone else has to curtsey to Camilla.

- Kate has to curtsey to all those who are of higher rank. That includes all Monarchs and their spouses (such as Prince Albert and Charlene), all Crown Princes and their spouses (such as Crown Prince Haakon and Crown Princess Mette-Marit), all younger sons of a Monarch and their spouses (such as Prince Laurent and Princess Claire of Belgium), the Monarch's daughters (such as Princess Anne), and sometimes the Monarch's grandsons (but not their wives).

- Charlene only has to curtsey to Monarchs (such as Queen Elizabeth) but not their spouses (such as Prince Philip) who are her equals.


I am completely at a loss why would Charlene curtsey to Charles and Camilla, why Camilla wouldn't curtsey to Charlene and Albert, but would curtsey to Crown Princesses of Romania and Thailand, and why Kate curtseyed to the Duke of Gloucester. Basically, as someone mentioned in this thread, those rules aren't carved in stone and royals have relative freedom of choice. Mostly, they are guided by common sense and respect; it would be quite preposterous, for example, to expect Kate to curtsey to Prince Christian of Denmark should they meet antimony soon, although the boy does outrank Kate at this point.

Charlene chose to curtsey to Charles and Camilla out of respect, same as Kate and Duke of Gloucester, or Camilla and Crown Princess of Thailand.
Alternatively, there might have been so many royals around that female royals got a bit confused and just decided to curtsey to everyone to be on the safe side.
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  #423  
Old 05-21-2012, 05:07 AM
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I think even the royals got confused yesterday
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  #424  
Old 05-21-2012, 07:40 AM
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Exactly, Lumutqueen. There obviously were so many royals, some reigning, some not, some with HRH, others without etc. I think it would've confused most people.

In addition, I'll bet there were some royals who weren't entirely sure who some of their fellow guests were because they so rarely meet.

I don't think we need to hunt for reasons as to why such and such curtsied to one person but not another. It's pretty obvious several of them weren't sure what the protocol was and decided to bow/curtsey to keep on the safe side. Better too much curtseying than too little.
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Old 05-21-2012, 07:54 AM
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EIIR , I agree with you they have only one minute or less at that very moment and sometimes such as Charlene who never met some royals before they curtsied because the Royal looks older etc..
In this forum you have plenty of time to discuss what happen in a second but as said EIIR, better too much than too little.
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  #426  
Old 05-21-2012, 08:48 AM
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Charlene curtsied to both Charles and Camilla. Here's a video of it.

Home - ITNSource News - click on Royal - - it's under Jubilee Banquet at Buckingham Palace.

Fascinating video. After watching it I was impressed with yet again how important it is for someone in Charles' position (male or female) to have a spouse beside them whom they love, who loves them and is there to support them 'in the crush'. How impossible these functions would be with anyone less by one's side. In an interview in the US a year or so ago Charles made mention of this and this video drove it home.

Watching Camilla deliver all those curtsies made me realize that there in one other reason to decide not to marry into a royal family. Ha!

Obviously, Charles was not doing a curtsy - but he didn't even seem to be doing a bow - or was he? It was hard to see because mostly the camera was trained on Camilla. Later: I do see a head bow - that's it.

Regarding Charlene's curtsy to Charles and then Camilla - It struck me that they were at 'Charles' place', in a word, so probably a curtsy to the 'owner of the castle' one is dining in seemed appropriate. Then when Camilla received the curtsy from Charlene, it made no sense for her to curtsy back - Camillia was basically 'saving' the situation, perhaps? To curtsy back would have been awkward for her young guest. I could see any number of reasons Albert decided that Charlene would curtsy - because surely he would have discussed it with Charlene beforehand, don't you think? I agree with some who have suggested its also in deference to age - and also I would think in deference to 'length of service' - makes sense.

Lastly - the energy around Albert's entry and exit is sooooo American - yep. And yet so very continental, too - Albert took Camilla's hand - watch him gaze into her eyes while he holds her hand - what a charmer!
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  #427  
Old 05-21-2012, 09:42 AM
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Even Italian press wrote about the " inconvenient" guests at the Queen's Jubilee Luncheon.
Londra, è polemica sugli invitati «scomodi» che siedono al tavolo della regina - Corriere.it
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At the same time I wonder why prince Aga Khan was absent from the ceremony.
He is a religious leader, not a monarch. I've always wondered how the title "prince" came into the picture. Anyone know (without me having to do a bunch of research).
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:27 AM
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I know that Queen Victoria bestowed the title of Highness on the Aga Kahn but I'm not sure as for the rest.
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  #429  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Camilla, Kate and Charlene are now very much royals, by marriage.
The protocol is actually pretty simple (for most European countries):

- Camilla has to curtsey to all those who are of higher rank than she is. That includes all Monarchs and their spouses (such as King Harald and Queen Sonja of Norway), as well as Heirs Apparent to the Throne (such as Crown Princess Victoria or Prince Felipe). She doesn't have to curtsey to wives of other Crown Princess (such as Crown Princess Maxima) because they are her equals. Everyone else has to curtsey to Camilla.

- Kate has to curtsey to all those who are of higher rank. That includes all Monarchs and their spouses (such as Prince Albert and Charlene), all Crown Princes and their spouses (such as Crown Prince Haakon and Crown Princess Mette-Marit), all younger sons of a Monarch and their spouses (such

as Prince Laurent and Princess Claire of Belgium), the Monarch's daughters (such as Princess Anne), and sometimes the Monarch's grandsons (but not
their wives).

- Charlene only has to curtsey to Monarchs (such as Queen Elizabeth) but not their spouses (such as Prince Philip) who are her equals.

I am completely at a loss why would Charlene curtsey to Charles and Camilla, why Camilla wouldn't curtsey to Charlene and Albert, but would curtsey to Crown Princesses of Romania and Thailand, and why Kate curtseyed to the Duke of Gloucester. Basically, as someone mentioned in this thread, those rules aren't carved in stone and royals have relative freedom of choice. Mostly,
they are guided by common sense and respect; it would be quite preposterous,
for example, to expect Kate to curtsey to Prince Christian of Denmark should they meet antimony soon, although the boy does outrank Kate at this point.

Charlene chose to curtsey to Charles and Camilla out of respect, same as Kate and Duke of Gloucester, or Camilla and Crown Princess of Thailand.
Alternatively, there might have been so many royals around that female royals
got a bit confused and just decided to curtsey to everyone to be on the safe
side.
Noooooooooo!!! The only person who gets curtseyed to is a HM by a HRH.

HRHs don't curtesy or bow to one another, doesn't matter if they are crown princes or princesses, they are all HRHs and of equal rank. Camilla will never have to curtesy to Kate if both become Queen. The fact that various HRHs do is a mark of respect not because they have to eg HRH Prince Consort Henrik gets curtseyed to by his HRH daughters in law but they don't have to. CP Mette-Marit curtseyed to CP Victoria but she didn't have to, they are of equal rank.

On the other hand the Dutch royals don't bow or curtesy to one another Queen Julianna abolished bowing and curtseying because she didn't like it.
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  #430  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:48 AM
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Obviously, Charles was not doing a curtsy - but he didn't even seem to be doing a bow - or was he?
To all heads of state and their consorts, Charles observed protocol and bowed his head.

It was interesting to see Camilla curtsey to the Crown Princess of Romania.
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  #431  
Old 05-21-2012, 10:58 AM
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All this discussion about bobbing and dipping up and down makes me want to watch one of my favorite movies "Pride and Predjudice" again. Seems like during this era everyone bowed and dipped to everyone they met. All I know is if I had to do any kind of a curtsey ever, I'm so klutzy I'd fall over face first on someone's shoes. :)

Lots of discussion has been going on in the bowing and curtseying thread too.
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  #432  
Old 05-21-2012, 11:41 AM
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Noooooooooo!!! The only person who gets curtseyed to is a HM by a HRH.

HRHs don't curtesy or bow to one another, doesn't matter if they are crown princes or princesses, they are all HRHs and of equal rank. Camilla will never have to curtesy to Kate if both become Queen. The fact that various HRHs do is a mark of respect not because they have to eg HRH Prince Consort Henrik gets curtseyed to by his HRH daughters in law but they don't have to. CP Mette-Marit curtseyed to CP Victoria but she didn't have to, they are of equal rank.

On the other hand the Dutch royals don't bow or curtesy to one another Queen Julianna abolished bowing and curtseying because she didn't like it.
I'm afraid that is not entirely correct.
A Head of State, whether an Imperial, Royal or Serene Highness automatically outranks all other non-Monarchs. Prince Albert thus holds precedence over Prince Charles, even if he is only a Serene Highness, whereas Charles is a Royal Highness. Similarly, Crown Princess Masako (an Imperial Highness) is ranked equal to Camilla, even though the latter is a Royal Highness.

Royal Highnesses do very much curtsey to each other, depending on their position and rank. Kate always curtsies to Camilla, Princess Claire of Belgium - to Crown Princess Maxima of the Netherlands; it all depends on appropriate protocol and etiquette rules.

Crown Princess Mette-Marit and Princess Victoria are not of equal rank; Mette-Marit's rank is equal to Prince Daniel, whereas Victoria's - to Crown Prince Haakon. Woman to woman, Victoria does outrank Mette-Marit.
On the other hand, when Mette-Marit curtsied to Camilla, she really didn't have to because as consorts of their respective country's crown princes, they are of equal rank.


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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
All this discussion about bobbing and dipping up and down makes me want to watch one of my favorite movies "Pride and Predjudice" again. Seems like during this era everyone bowed and dipped to everyone they met. All I know is if I had to do any kind of a curtsey ever, I'm so klutzy I'd fall over face first on someone's shoes. :)
Back then, a woman would curtsey to all men upon introduction and/or bidding goodbye. Similarly, men would bow to all women. Obviously, I mean men and women of the same rank. A noble or gentry would not bow or curtsey to "lower" classes, unless he/she was exceptionally polite, or, alternatively, wanted to insult (a cold bow/curtsey was as good as a slap back then).
Love Pride and Prejudice as well, at least the original one (with Colin Firth and Jennifer Ehle).
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  #433  
Old 05-21-2012, 02:04 PM
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Thank you all for your input. It was and does still remain slightly confusing. I suppose to be on the safe side I would have curtsied to everyone as well. I just thought that not being born royal even though you are married to one still makes you the low man on the totem pole and it would be logical that you would curtsey to all that are born royal. Well I suppose it is something to study up on. Thanks everyone. :)
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  #434  
Old 05-21-2012, 02:22 PM
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In the UK a proper bow is not much more than a nodding of the head. Bowing from the waste is incorrect. The fact that the proper bow is so subtle can make it easy to miss.

This is what a bow executed correctly looks like in the UK:

Prince William bows to Queen Elizabeth II
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:33 PM
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Thank you all for your input. It was and does still remain slightly confusing. I suppose to be on the safe side I would have curtsied to everyone as well. I just thought that not being born royal even though you are married to one still makes you the low man on the totem pole and it would be logical that you would curtsey to all that are born royal. Well I suppose it is something to study up on. Thanks everyone. :)
One thing I try to remember is that in the UK, wives take on the titles and styles of their husbands so normally a HRH would be endowed on a wife that marries a HRH and such. The one exception I can think of was the Duchess of Windsor. It was stated specifically in her case that she would not be granted a HRH.
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:47 PM
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Thanks Osipi. I will remember that. I suppose that helps some.
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Old 05-21-2012, 03:56 PM
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I was hoping there would be a pic of Queen Margarethe stepping outside the castle to have a smoke or maybe on the balcony of the palace for an after dinner smoke.
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  #438  
Old 05-22-2012, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
All this discussion about bobbing and dipping up and down makes me want to watch one of my favorite movies "Pride and Predjudice" again. Seems like during this era everyone bowed and dipped to everyone they met. All I know is if I had to do any kind of a curtsey ever, I'm so klutzy I'd fall over face first on someone's shoes. :)

Lots of discussion has been going on in the bowing and curtseying thread too.
Oh, I do adore that movie, and the curtseys are executed with such elegance. Makes me feel like a clumsy cow on ice these days. Like you, I'd be sprawled out on the floor after attempting a curtsey, which would not be so good. I think I'll stick with a bow, out of desire to avoid disgracing myself.

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I'm afraid that is not entirely correct.
A Head of State, whether an Imperial, Royal or Serene Highness automatically outranks all other non-Monarchs. Prince Albert thus holds precedence over Prince Charles, even if he is only a Serene Highness, whereas Charles is a Royal Highness. Similarly, Crown Princess Masako (an Imperial Highness) is ranked equal to Camilla, even though the latter is a Royal Highness.

Royal Highnesses do very much curtsey to each other, depending on their position and rank. Kate always curtsies to Camilla, Princess Claire of Belgium - to Crown Princess Maxima of the Netherlands; it all depends on appropriate protocol and etiquette rules.

Crown Princess Mette-Marit and Princess Victoria are not of equal rank; Mette-Marit's rank is equal to Prince Daniel, whereas Victoria's - to Crown Prince Haakon. Woman to woman, Victoria does outrank Mette-Marit.
On the other hand, when Mette-Marit curtsied to Camilla, she really didn't have to because as consorts of their respective country's crown princes, they are of equal rank.



Back then, a woman would curtsey to all men upon introduction and/or bidding goodbye. Similarly, men would bow to all women. Obviously, I mean men and women of the same rank. A noble or gentry would not bow or curtsey to "lower" classes, unless he/she was exceptionally polite, or, alternatively, wanted to insult (a cold bow/curtsey was as good as a slap back then).
Love Pride and Prejudice as well, at least the original one (with Colin Firth and Jennifer Ehle).
You and I have the same thought regarding P&P from '95. The only televised version of the book that is acceptable, in my eyes. Anyhow, thank you so much for all your explanations regarding the curtsey protocol. It's mighty confusing, and I know for a fact, that if I were in Catherine's situation, I'd be curtseying left and right, to make sure I didn't miss anyone that I wasn't supposed to miss (whew...it's a good thing indeed that I'm not in that position, since I think I'd make a fool out of myself with or without the curtseying).

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Thank you all for your input. It was and does still remain slightly confusing. I suppose to be on the safe side I would have curtsied to everyone as well. I just thought that not being born royal even though you are married to one still makes you the low man on the totem pole and it would be logical that you would curtsey to all that are born royal. Well I suppose it is something to study up on. Thanks everyone. :)
I agree with you regarding the confusion. No matter how many times I read the explanations of the protocol, I walk away just a tad confused.

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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
One thing I try to remember is that in the UK, wives take on the titles and styles of their husbands so normally a HRH would be endowed on a wife that marries a HRH and such. The one exception I can think of was the Duchess of Windsor. It was stated specifically in her case that she would not be granted a HRH.
Thank you for the explanation. It's easier to remember it this way.
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  #439  
Old 05-23-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quite. It is very simple: royalty is a caste, and a very exclusive one at that; they are different, and they have their own set of rules. Within their private circles, former monarchs such as Kings Michael and Simeon (deposed by the communists) and Constantine (effectively deposed by a military junta) are accorded sovereign status, although the manner of their deposition is irrelevant. They may be former Kings but are treated by their own kind as reigning Kings.

The protocol of the royal caste holds that individual ranking is based on one's date of accession. Thus in the formal photograph to commemorate the Jubilee luncheon King Michael (1927 and 1940) sat on the Queen's right, and King Simeon (1946) sat on her left. King Constantine (1964) was next to King Michael and the Sultan of Brunei (1967) was next to King Simeon. And so on. The King of Tonga (2012) took up the rear (but dead centre for reasons of balance as he is very tall), between the Crown Prince of Serbia and the Crown Prince of Thailand.
King Constantine was deposed following a democratically conducted referendum, in December 1974, six months after the fall of the Junta.
In general, once a king, a former monarch retains her/his status but without territorial designation.
In the case of King Constantine, he was anointed by the Church. Thus, even if he had abdicated, he would still be referred to as a king.
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Old 05-23-2012, 05:52 PM
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With regard to Constantine, why is he the only deposed monarch to have the ex- prefix? I've never heard ex-king Simeon or ex-King Michael. Sorry if this has been asked elsewhere.
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