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  #81  
Old 04-22-2010, 05:50 PM
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The marriage requirements are in Gustav's grandfather's will. The Prussians and the Leiningens have already tried to overturn similar requirements in the wills of Kaiser Wilhelm II and the late Prince Emich zu leiningen. (The wills are treated as every will as the wills were made out after the end of monarchy.) Thus, there are already 2 precedents against Gustav's chances of winning .. and I think he's aware that the will cannot be overturned. He cannot marry Carina and remain the heir. But if he does not marry her, he can remain the heir, and prepare the next heir, which would be the line of Prince Bernhart.
Carina may not be close to her sister.. Princess Anne did not attend William's baptism.
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Unless one knows the specifics regarding the relationship between Carina and her sister (and her family) as a whole, aren't we pretty much speculating?

We don't know if she knew or not about the tragic circumstances of her brother in laws death...we don't why she didn't attending her neice's christening..we are just guessing and assuming the worst about hte personality of someone we don't know...or am I missing something?

Furthermore, it does appear that Gustav and Carina can marry but give up the title and fortune...but the question is why should they? Isn't it his birthright? I am not trying to malign anyone's heirtage or go off on a tangent...but I find the he must marry an Aryan to be a little off center and dare I say it...meanspiritied. Would this not be a problem if it wasn't Carina who he wanted to marry? Even if he loses this battle or Carina...I would think that this needs to be removed for future generations. Someone has to fight the battle...why not Gustav?
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  #82  
Old 04-22-2010, 05:57 PM
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Liselot's first husband was John Moitozo. He committed suicide in 2006.
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You haven't answered my question. HOW do you know this? The news stories STILL haven't mentioned the wife's name. How do you know this is her in-laws? How do you know that her first husband died? Otherwise, this seems like gossip, IMO. Would you please tell us how you know this information?
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  #83  
Old 04-22-2010, 07:56 PM
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Welcome Marlene! I enjoy your blog as well!

2 questions if you can answer I'd appreciate it:

I believe that the law in Germany now allows one to marry in church but not necessarily a Civil Marriage. If Gustav does this, will he still be able to keep his inheritance and pass it on to his children?

Also, if he breaks with Carina, marry per his Grandfather's will, then divorces, can he then marry whomever he chooses?
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  #84  
Old 04-22-2010, 08:41 PM
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what ever happen she is 40 very difficult to have kids at this age, i know not impossible with the help of science but may be she does not want kids, who knows but still I would rather he would take her instead of the will, this is what my grandfather did, he scape with my grandmother dispite the family opisition becasue of the social level, otherwise today i would not be here! ( just i must admite i would not mind to have their fortune today, but he choose love and I adimire him for that )
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  #85  
Old 04-22-2010, 11:24 PM
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The incident was on the 15th, the day before the Danish party. Carina elected to not only remain in Denmark (when other travel options were available) but to attend public events. That's tasteless.

We're also dealing with a very wealthy family here; a train to points south would have been easy to arrange, and private jet transport readily available to those in that income bracket. Althought I don't know Queen Margrethe personally, she appears to me to be the type of person who not only would say "Please, go be with your family," but would probably ask her staff to find private transport such as a Gulfstream to ferry the woman to her sister. Again, I'd like to point out the extreme wealth we are talking about here; this isn't your basic traveler, having to stand in line at Heathrow and glumly stare at the flight schedules.

Partying away while your sister is laying out her husband and comforting her babies is chilling. Just chilling.

The murder happened before 7:30 am on Thursday, April 15, 2010, as that is the date and time that Mrs. Jones found her husband's body and called the police. That would be 4:30 pm in Copenhagen, the day before the festivities for the Queen began.
The volcano exploded on the 15th, which is why the Swedes, Norwegians, etc. couldn't make it to the theatre performance on the 15th. No one was flying out of Europe that day, even if they had a private jet (which I'm not sure the Danish royals actually have). It simply wasn't safe. And I don't know that a train to the south was easy to arrange, even with money - this was the worst travel chaos Europe has ever seen, including 9/11 when all flights were grounded due to the World Trade Center attacks. Plus, a train from Denmark to, say, Rome would take almost 24 hours, and it would have been really hard to find a flight once she got there. Even if the Danes had a private jet, odds are it wasn't in Rome but in Denmark, and just because she could have paid more for a ticket doesn't mean she would have gotten one. Money can't always fix this kind of stuff. And there's very little Carina could have done had she gotten to America.

I really don't think it's fair to blame her for not rushing to the States. However, she could very easily have simply not attended the party. I think it would have been more appropriate for her to just stay in her and Gustav's rooms while he went alone, so I agree with you that going on and partying was tasteless.

By the way ashelen, I really like your story.
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  #86  
Old 04-23-2010, 01:01 AM
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Thank you Maura724! for one way I admire my grandfather(farfar)his decicion of marrying my grandmother(farmor) because in those days he could not marry a commoner like Fred did and he choose love and I really I can not imagine how did he handled his life with no money for love I know it was very hard from living in a castle to lives in the srteets and bring up 3 kids but still it has some magic in the air, sometimes I think I would have love to inherit his wealth and his style of life but probably if he had chosen money I would not be here or I would not be the person I am today may be one day everyting turn around and we - i mean me , my husband, my daughter and hopfully my descendats- can go back to denmark and get back the honour that he lost for love.
Certenly all this thing between Gustav and Carina I do not see a real love, I hope I am wrong!
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  #87  
Old 04-23-2010, 10:54 AM
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... this was the worst travel chaos Europe has ever seen, including 9/11 when all flights were grounded due to the World Trade Center attacks.
In the aftermath of the World Trade Center attacks, all planes were grounded except private jets. The Bin Laden family in the United States were whisked away from NY in a small fleet of private aircraft, generally taking off from Teterboro or MacArthur, in the hours and days after the attacks.

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Plus, a train from Denmark to, say, Rome would take almost 24 hours, and it would have been really hard to find a flight once she got there. Even if the Danes had a private jet, odds are it wasn't in Rome but in Denmark, and just because she could have paid more for a ticket doesn't mean she would have gotten one. .
When I speak of private jets, I am speaking of private aircraft owned by individuals and corporations, not subject to the purchase of a ticket. They are commonly "lent" out to friends and family or leased for short-runs. Any of the major corporations based in Denmark would have had one available (most more than one!) and they have the advantage of not having to go aloft into the airstream that contained the ash. For instance, BoConcepts could have lent their G-4 to - someone - with a flight plan to fly below the ash-stream with a transfer to available public air travel - perhaps St. Petersburg. Where there is a will (no pun intended!) there is a way, particularly in this income bracket. The fact that other Royals did not make it could have had as much to do with public appearance (being grounded with their "people" for instance) as being actually grounded.

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And there's very little Carina could have done had she gotten to America..
I disagree respectfully, Maura. The point of being with someone who is bereaved isn't necessarily to do anything, it's just to be there to share the grief. For a sister to not even make the effort, or even to give off the appearance of an effort, appears to me to be saying that "I have better things to do, and better people to do them with."

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However, she could very easily have simply not attended the party. I think it would have been more appropriate for her to just stay in her and Gustav's rooms while he went alone, so I agree with you that going on and partying was tasteless.
Most definitely. Even if (as the BB story seems to imply) she received the news just before leaping aboard the bus to the party, she and Gustav could have easily just disembarked with everyone else, moved quietly inside the facility and requested an immediate and uneventful departure. To continue to attend further events (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) is even more vulgar.

Another newspaper has reported the story:

Ekstra Bladet - Mord satte dæmper på dronningens fest
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  #88  
Old 04-23-2010, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
In the aftermath of the World Trade Center attacks, all planes were grounded except private jets. The Bin Laden family in the United States were whisked away from NY in a small fleet of private aircraft, generally taking off from Teterboro or MacArthur, in the hours and days after the attacks.
Wrong. If you consult the 9/11 report, you'll see that the bin Laden family -- those who chose to leave the U.S. -- left via a chartered Ryan Air flight that made stops in Boston, Washington, Orlando, and Los Angeles. This flight took place 8 days after 9/11, after U.S. airspace was fully re-opened. Here's a source for my info: Plane Carried 13 Bin Ladens (washingtonpost.com)

Also, note that AIRSPACE was closed. Private jets did NOT fly.

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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
When I speak of private jets, I am speaking of private aircraft owned by individuals and corporations, not subject to the purchase of a ticket. They are commonly "lent" out to friends and family or leased for short-runs. Any of the major corporations based in Denmark would have had one available (most more than one!) and they have the advantage of not having to go aloft into the airstream that contained the ash. For instance, BoConcepts could have lent their G-4 to - someone - with a flight plan to fly below the ash-stream with a transfer to available public air travel - perhaps St. Petersburg. Where there is a will (no pun intended!) there is a way, particularly in this income bracket. The fact that other Royals did not make it could have had as much to do with public appearance (being grounded with their "people" for instance) as being actually grounded.
Wrong again. As after 9/11, the AIRSPACE was closed, so no traffic moved. Even military jet flights (at any altitude) were grounded. Here's the source for that: The Associated Press: Ash cloud has jet fighters grounded in Europe

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I disagree respectfully, Maura. The point of being with someone who is bereaved isn't necessarily to do anything, it's just to be there to share the grief. For a sister to not even make the effort, or even to give off the appearance of an effort, appears to me to be saying that "I have better things to do, and better people to do them with."

Most definitely. Even if (as the BB story seems to imply) she received the news just before leaping aboard the bus to the party, she and Gustav could have easily just disembarked with everyone else, moved quietly inside the facility and requested an immediate and uneventful departure. To continue to attend further events (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) is even more vulgar.
It is completely unfair to presume to know how ANYONE should behave in such a situation. We don't know the sisters' relationship, we don't know the options for transportation, we don't when and how Carina heard the news, and so on. We also don't know what happened subsequent to the gala.

It's worth pointing out that the brother-in-law who was just killed married Carina's sister only a year or two ago. For all we know, Carina may have met him only once or twice. That's not a connection that would create high drama in my life.

I don't understand why people have such an axe to grind against Carina. She's not "the other woman" who forced anyone else out. She and Gustav seem to keep to themselves, except when they attend family events, so it's not as if she's out in the public annoying anyone. And, by all indications, she appears to have not only Gustav's love, but the support of his parents and the Danish royal family.

I think it's only fair to give her the benefit of the doubt that she lives her life in a way that suits her and those she loves. Because, frankly, to do otherwise is nothing more than gossip and casting our own prejudices against her.
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  #89  
Old 04-23-2010, 06:07 PM
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It's worth pointing out that the brother-in-law who was just killed married Carina's sister only a year or two ago. For all we know, Carina may have met him only once or twice. That's not a connection that would create high drama in my life.
I'm actually rather flabbergasted that your measure of the worth of a marriage (and widowhood) is in its time span alone, and that by inference, the decedent is hardly worth the time of Gustav's girlfriend, and hardly worth mourning in general. Do please provide the date of the marriage as well as the dates of birth for their two children (the third and oldest being her child from her first deceased husband) to back this up.

As to everything else in your post, it has two strong flavors: attack, and filtered data. You may private message me for first-hand information about flights that did take place both after the attacks on the World Trade Center (please note: World Trade Center = NY) and jet travel after the volcanic eruption - provided that you significantly moderate your tone. Or better yet, perform the primary research by using source data such as the agencies governing airspace wherein flight plans and manifests are filed (as opposed to quoting media which is re-quoting reports; at that point, it's third to fourth hand.) At this point, however, that discussion is wildly off-topic, and I was right there in the wagon with you on the "Journey Away From Topic," so fill my plate with a helping of "mea culpa" as well.

I note no gossip going on in these past postings. We have presented facts and expressed our opinions based on those facts. It is my belief that everyone has been respectful of each other (well, up until a few mintues ago) and been very specific as to which were facts and which were opinions. Surely, you don't place yourself in a position of where you believe you have governance over our opinions - do you?

Finally, since the basis of your post is that we are all prejudiced folk with an axe to grind, please provide the data that supports that.
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  #90  
Old 04-23-2010, 07:50 PM
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I agree with Not a Pretender; Carina at the least, if not both she and Gustav, should had bowed out and stayed at Schoss Berleburg (or at a Danish Castle if they were already in Denmark) with taste. If she never met her recently deceased brother in law, it was distasteful and self serving for her to smile on cue at every camera.

Don't get me wrong, if I fell in love with a Prince, I would do what would be required to become his wife, but I would not wait around for years and be a "pretend princess" for the glamour shots. It cheapens the title of "Princess" IMHO. The sad probablilty is that he will never give up the money and title, and if he holds on til death, the Headship of the House and Schloss and money still goes to his cousin Bernhart or his son.
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  #91  
Old 04-23-2010, 08:20 PM
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I'm actually rather flabbergasted that your measure of the worth of a marriage (and widowhood) is in its time span alone, and that by inference, the decedent is hardly worth the time of Gustav's girlfriend, and hardly worth mourning in general.
Well, you can get over being flabbergasted, because that's not what I said. I said Carina may not have even met the man for than a few times, given the short time her was married to her sister. SHE is not the widow.
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Do please provide the date of the marriage as well as the dates of birth for their two children (the third and oldest being her child from her first deceased husband) to back this up.
I don't know the date of the marriage, but I do know that since the previous husband killed himself in February 2006, they weren't married more than a few years. (If you care to know the DOB of their children, look them up yourself -- I haven't referred to them.) My source for the first husband's death is: Billed-Bladet - Chok i kongehuset: Carina Axelssons svoger myrdet
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
As to everything else in your post, it has two strong flavors: attack, and filtered data. You may private message me for first-hand information about flights that did take place both after the attacks on the World Trade Center (please note: World Trade Center = NY) and jet travel after the volcanic eruption - provided that you significantly moderate your tone. Or better yet, perform the primary research by using source data such as the agencies governing airspace wherein flight plans and manifests are filed (as opposed to quoting media which is re-quoting reports; at that point, it's third to fourth hand.)
I am attacking your assertions, which are groundless and for which you offer no sources whatsoever. I'm sorry if you take that personally, but if you're going to make baseless claims, be prepared to defend them. As to "filtered" data, I have provided you with resources from the Associated Press and the Washington Post. If you would like to back up your assertions with ANY reliable source, please do so.
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At this point, however, that discussion is wildly off-topic, and I was right there in the wagon with you on the "Journey Away From Topic," so fill my plate with a helping of "mea culpa" as well.
I don't think it's off-topic at all. You're presenting things as "facts" that attempt to support your opinions of Carina and Gustav, and they don't stand up to scrutiny. That creates a false impression of these people, which is a disservice to them -- and it's against the policy of this forum, as I understand it.
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I note no gossip going on in these past postings. We have presented facts and expressed our opinions based on those facts.
You have NOT presented facts in this instance, you've asserted things that aren't correct and called them facts.
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It is my belief that everyone has been respectful of each other (well, up until a few mintues ago) and been very specific as to which were facts and which were opinions. Surely, you don't place yourself in a position of where you believe you have governance over our opinions - do you?
I've offered factual, resource-supported responses to your assertions, which were wrong. I did not attack you personally. I don't find it very respectful (of the board members or the people being discussed) when people assert things based on unsupported assertions.
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Finally, since the basis of your post is that we are all prejudiced folk with an axe to grind, please provide the data that supports that.
Once again, you're miscasting what I said. I asked why some people in this thread seem to have a need to grind on Carina. In my opinion -- although I think a review of quite a few comments in the last 20 or 30 posts in this thread would support it -- people are really slamming Carina for reasons that aren't entirely clear. As far prejudice, I said that not giving Carina the benefit of the doubt -- and I don't think that many people have done that -- amounts to casting our own prejudices onto her.
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  #92  
Old 04-23-2010, 09:13 PM
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Timing of death and gala

One other thing that might be worth considering in this whole debate about why Carina attended the gala is the timing of how information came out.

According to the local news reports, Carina's sister called the police at 7:30 AM to report the shooting; her husband was declared dead at the scene later. (Source: New Details: Sheriffs Investigate Murder, Suicide - KION - Monterey, Salinas, Santa Cruz - News Weather)

Denmark is 9 hours ahead of California, which means that the sister didn't call the police until 4:30 PM Copenhagen time.

At that time, the poor woman would have been busy dealing with her children, a dead husband, a dead father-in-law, the tragedy, the police, emergency responders, and reporters. In fact, as the local news story reports, the investigation at the house was continuing throughout the day.

But, for the sake of argument, let's assume she called Carina by 8 AM California time, which would have been 5 PM Copenhagen time. (Seems improbable, but who knows?)

As the pictures from the gala show, the guests were arriving in daylight, so the event must have started in the early evening at the latest. By the time Carina might have received a call, she and Gustav probably would have been dressed and ready for the event, if not on their way to it. (At least I'm assuming that they're not quick-change artists who can get fully dressed up for a white-tie event in less than an hour.)

At that point, what can they do?

-- airspace is closed, so they can't fly out. (The fact that world leaders couldn't fly to the Polish funeral two days later would seem to show that NO ONE was flying.)

-- train might be a possibility, but they would have had to take a a very long trip to southern Europe, where they might or might not have been able to get out. (And, I have no idea if there even is a train leaving from Copenhagen at night to go to southern Europe.)

-- driving might have been an option, but that would have meant many, many hours on the road to get anywhere flights were leaving.

-- even hanging on the phone to support her sister would have been unlikely, since the sister almost certainly had her hands full with everything else going on.

It seems to me that going to the gala would have been a perfectly reasonable decision. Get their minds off the tragedy, don't draw attention away from the queen, don't create a lot of speculation about why they weren't there, and sit through a concert and consider their options.

Far from being coldhearted about the death, that would have been polite to the queen and about all they could do.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:13 PM
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I understand that day may be go but not the following days! and really refring gustav I think he will never married her, one day he will meet soembody younger married and have kids ad damp karina! i think she is not clever enough to stay with him, but just is my opinion
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Old 04-23-2010, 11:58 PM
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Carina and Gustav are adults and perfectly able to make decisions on their own. To chastise them for how they decided to proceed with the evening after they assumedly received the tragic news implies that they are somehow not quite capable of making appropriate decisions. To stop what they were are doing would in no way have helped her sister not would I expect her sister to questions why Carina did not change her plans for the evening.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:56 AM
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This does not appear to be a woman upset over her sister's lost. And, again, she hit her camera cue each and every time.

Billed-Bladet - the festivities' most beautiful dresses

photo courtesy of Billed-Bladet
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:00 AM
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Aren't we making assumptions that she knew about her sister's tragedy prior to the event. Was there anyone in the room with her when she received the call, and she shrugged it off and said, What the Heck? I am dressed already?

Does any one know for a FACT when and where she was when she heard about her sister's husband? If not, then all of this is just your opinion....which you are entitled to but let's just keep it real that its your opinion. I hardly think we will know all the facts regarding this.
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:49 AM
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This does not appear to be a woman upset over her sister's lost. And, again, she hit her camera cue each and every time.

Billed-Bladet - the festivities' most beautiful dresses

photo courtesy of Billed-Bladet
This is just one photo taken in a second. Why make the conclusion that Carina isn't upset?

What about this photo: http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...ark/carina.jpg
Can you say the same thing?

Once again, no one knows when she learned of the tragedy.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:30 PM
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Can you? As it has been stated that conclusions should not be made by one photo (there were more than one) you can't make a conclusion about this as, again, she was there!

I still say that it was tasteless for her and Gustav to attend!
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:47 PM
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The first day they have the excuse that maybe they didn't know. but the next days?
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:51 PM
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But again, are you aware of a conversation that Carina had with her sister that we are not aware of?

My point is...one shouldn't make judgements without knowing all the facts.
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