The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #181  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:45 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,776
I think it is only tradition that the heir apparent is known as Crown Prince, so that Christian's title would technically be King Frederik's decision as well.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:56 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 12,725
No, the Law of Succession states very clearly that the Monarch cannot change the title of or bypass the crown prince/ss.
Everybody else, yes. But not the crown prince.

- Presumably that was to avoid a future civil war, in case there was a dispute about who was to get on the throne.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:48 PM
Queen Claude's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: USA, United States
Posts: 967
I am referring to Frederik's grandchildren through Isabella and Josephine.

If things go as expected, Christian's children will be HRH Prince/ss X.

Based on the titles and styling of Joachim's children, Vincent's (male line) children will be HH Prince/ss Y.

Will Isabella and Josephine's (female line) children also be HH Princes and Princesses?

ETA:
Are you all saying that things are not yet codified and/or based on the preference of the current monarch?
Reply With Quote
  #184  
Old 02-15-2018, 04:18 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 12,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
I am referring to Frederik's grandchildren through Isabella and Josephine.

If things go as expected, Christian's children will be HRH Prince/ss X.

Based on the titles and styling of Joachim's children, Vincent's (male line) children will be HH Prince/ss Y.

Will Isabella and Josephine's (female line) children also be HH Princes and Princesses?

ETA:
Are you all saying that things are not yet codified and/or based on the preference of the current monarch?
I'm saying that the Danish monarch is the undisputed head of the family and as such also the de facto judge of the family for that matter.
In theory the monarch can strip any member of the DRF of their title, except for the crown prince m/f. That persons title, place in the line of succession and when that persons steps in on behalf of the monarch is protected by law.

Okay, in 25 years Frederik is king.
All his children by now each have two children, who because their are children of royal are also princes/ses.
The same thing applies to Joachim's children, each have two royal children.
That's 16 royal grandchildren, plus Joachim and Fredrik's 8 children. Joachim, Frederik, Mary and our Marie themselves, that's 4 royals. Then we presume that the children are all married to spouses who also have a royal title, that's 8 more.
That's altogether 36 royals milling around in Denmark in 25 years from now!
That's an unacceptable high number, so that number has to be curbed, and that decision is up to the monarch.
So we should not be surprised if Joachim's children will loose their royal title upon marriage, simply as a way to keep the number down.
It's been done before, when royals married "beneath their station".
Nowadays it's much more brutal, because it's up to the monarch to strip them of their titles, not "the system".

It will not remove their place in the line of succession, that's stated by law. But there is really no reason why #19 in line for the throne should have the title of princess to Denmark. The chances of that princess to ever getting near to the throne, even standing in as Rigsforstander is remote.

So Frederik will have some unpleasant decisions to make at some point.
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 02-15-2018, 05:57 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,463
Previously titles were not passed on through the female line - unless direct heir to the throne. So, is there are formal rule that anyone descending from a prince or princess will be a prince or princess him/herself, if not, why do you expect that Isabella's, Josepine's, and Athena's children will also be princes and princesses? Especially since the Monpezat title was limited to the male line...
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:04 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 12,725
Why shouldn't they?

I think it would be seen as very odd if Isabella's children were not given royal titles while Vincent's would. There would be an uproar here in DK!
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:10 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: ., Germany
Posts: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Why shouldn't they?

I think it would be seen as very odd if Isabella's children were not given royal titles while Vincent's would. There would be an uproar here in DK!
But then why did they choose to handle the Monpezat titles differently and limit them to the male line? I never quite understood that...
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:14 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 12,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iolanthe View Post
But then why did they choose to handle the Monpezat titles differently and limit them to the male line? I never quite understood that...
Nor have I.
Perhaps it was to please PH. He was pretty old fashioned in many ways.
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:40 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
No, the Law of Succession states very clearly that the Monarch cannot change the title of or bypass the crown prince/ss.
Everybody else, yes. But not the crown prince.

- Presumably that was to avoid a future civil war, in case there was a dispute about who was to get on the throne.
The sovereign cannot bypass anyone in the line of succession, given that the order of succession is established by the Act of Succession.

Looking at the Act of Succession (pp. 36-37, PDF here), I don't see any proviso that the monarch may not change the crown prince's title.
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:54 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 12,725
I was not clear.

It was the title I meant.
The bit about the crown prince who cannot be bypassed, should have been kept separately in my post.
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:55 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,463
The easiest solution would probably be to only make Christian's children royal highnesses and not the children of his siblings. Although Vincent's children would be earls and countesses of Monpezat and Isabella's and Josephine's children would have their respective father's surname. Alternatively, the grandchildren in both male and female line would be highnesses and prince(ss), however, which surname would be passed on to Isabella's and Josephine's children by a son? Would they end up with the surname of Isabella's and Joseohine's husbands (so does it just skip one generation)?
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 02-15-2018, 07:03 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 12,725
Your answer would be as good as anyone's.
We shall see in 25 years if we are both still here.
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 02-15-2018, 07:12 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Your answer would be as good as anyone's.
We shall see in 25 years if we are both still here.
I guess this question is faced by most royal families these days with the change to equal succession and countries/monarchies are handling it diffrently, so it will be interesting to see what option the Danes pick and whether they still support that decision one or two generations later (which we might not live to see); the Belgians turned from their new ways pretty quickly...
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 02-15-2018, 07:20 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I was not clear.

It was the title I meant.
The bit about the crown prince who cannot be bypassed, should have been kept separately in my post.
Thanks for the clarification.

But it seems to me that the Act of Succession would not hold back Queen Margrethe from changing Frederik's title from Crown Prince to Prince, for example, as the change of title would not have any impact on Frederik's place in the line of succession.
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 02-15-2018, 07:27 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 12,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thanks for the clarification.

But it seems to me that the Act of Succession would not hold back Queen Margrethe from changing Frederik's title from Crown Prince to Prince, for example, as the change of title would not have any impact on Frederik's place in the line of succession.
Except that the title of crown prince has a specific meaning in regards to who is to be regent and so on.
It's of course theoretical, because attempting to demote Frederik to a mere prince, would lead to very stern political warnings and lead to a public demand for an abdication. Even if it was legally possible, which I actually doubt.
QMII herself had the title of The Successor, but only because there was a possibility that her parents would have a son.
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 02-15-2018, 07:44 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,776
I agree that it is theoretical - my discussion was only about the legal possibility. As far as I can see, the laws say nothing about the title of Crown Prince; both the constitution and the regency act use the word Thronfølgeren in place of Kronprinsen.

Of course, the Queen would not attempt changes to titles if the government were opposed.
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:04 AM
MARG's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 9,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Except that the title of crown prince has a specific meaning in regards to who is to be regent and so on.
It's of course theoretical, because attempting to demote Frederik to a mere prince, would lead to very stern political warnings and lead to a public demand for an abdication. Even if it was legally possible, which I actually doubt.
QMII herself had the title of The Successor, but only because there was a possibility that her parents would have a son.
The UK is the same I think. Princess Elizabeth was only ever the heir presumptive and never Princess of Wales and access to the disposition and running of the Duchy of Cornwall.

While the law of succession has become gender neutral, the Aristocracy has not which is just plain wrong. Why should a woman and her daughter move out of the family pile leaving the entailed goods (jewels) to some hick from Australia whom they've never met.
__________________
MARG
"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:26 AM
FasterB's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 1,430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Except that the title of crown prince has a specific meaning in regards to who is to be regent and so on.
It's of course theoretical, because attempting to demote Frederik to a mere prince, would lead to very stern political warnings and lead to a public demand for an abdication. Even if it was legally possible, which I actually doubt.
QMII herself had the title of The Successor, but only because there was a possibility that her parents would have a son.
Not only due to that, but also because here in Denmark (at least before the change of the AoS in 2005) a Crown Princess is married to a Crown Prince.
__________________
Where charity and love are, God is there.
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 02-16-2018, 05:57 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 4,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
The easiest solution would probably be to only make Christian's children royal highnesses and not the children of his siblings. Although Vincent's children would be earls and countesses of Monpezat and Isabella's and Josephine's children would have their respective father's surname. Alternatively, the grandchildren in both male and female line would be highnesses and prince(ss), however, which surname would be passed on to Isabella's and Josephine's children by a son? Would they end up with the surname of Isabella's and Joseohine's husbands (so does it just skip one generation)?
That is what is already done now and is usually the case in danish RF. Only the children of the Heir are Royal Highness, the children of younger sons are Highness. The question is if the children of Vincent and his siblings will also be Prince/Princess.
__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 02-16-2018, 07:10 AM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
That is what is already done now and is usually the case in danish RF. Only the children of the Heir are Royal Highness, the children of younger sons are Highness. The question is if the children of Vincent and his siblings will also be Prince/Princess.
Both suggestions I made deviate from the current practice that only male-line grandchildren are highnesses (next to making the heir's children royal highnesses). The first by not making any grandchildren (other than by future direct heirs) princes and princesses (but only give them their father's surname or other titles - without the style of highness), the second by extending male-line to female-line.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
christian, danish law, isabella, mary: crown princess of denmark, royal dinner services


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Suggested changes or additional features RhapsodyBrat Forum Announcements and Admin 51 07-13-2011 11:59 AM
General News & Information for Prince Albert and Charlene Wittstock Zonk Current Events Archive 459 07-01-2011 01:13 PM




Popular Tags
alqasimi aristocracy armenia belgian royal family castles charles of wales countess of snowdon countess of wessex crown crown prince hussein crown prince hussein's future wife crown princess victoria current events cyprus danish history denmark duchess of sussex duke of cambridge duke of sussex dutch history earl of wessex french revolution friendly city genealogy germany greece headship henry v house of bourbon house of glucksburg house of grimaldi house of orange-nassau house of saxe-coburg and gotha kiko king philippe lady louise mountbatten-windsor lithuanian castles marriage mbs meghan markle monaco christening monarchist monarchy monogram naples nobel 2019 norwegian royal family official visit palaces potential areas prince harry prince of wales prince peter princess royal queen mathilde rania of jordan romanov family savoy saxony shakespeare south africa south korea spanish royal state visit sweden swedish history swedish royal family swedish royalty united kingdom usa


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:19 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises
×