The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > Royal House of Denmark > Current Events Archive

Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #421  
Old 07-11-2014, 07:07 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,060
Prins Joachim er stadig på boligjagt - Royale | www.bt.dk
According to BT this info from H&N is not correct and was denied by the court.
But apparently Joachim sold the Schackenborg Castle, so he has enough money now.
__________________

  #422  
Old 07-11-2014, 10:22 AM
Duke of Marmalade's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
TRF Author
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Posts: 11,557
Yes, and it's tax-free to boot. I find this all a bit dodgy, sorry. It doesnt leave the best of impressions of the royal house.
Prinsen skrattar hela vägen till Köpenhamn | Kvällsposten
__________________

  #423  
Old 07-11-2014, 01:52 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,250
Hmmm seems a mystery to me, I can understand that maintaining such a large house is difficult but I wonder how hard Joachim really tried. That being said I also wonder how much of a say he had in the first place over whether or not he lived there. Its the money side that seems to raise issues of morality.
  #424  
Old 07-11-2014, 03:42 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,777
Had a closer look at the more serious articles. And that may lead to a more nuanced view.

Was it a bail-out or a pull-out? A bit of both, I think.

At around ten years Joachim was told he was to inherit Schackenborg from the Schack family, the then owners of Schackenborg being childless themselves and other relatives of the family not wishing to take over.
In other words Joachim was never asked whether he wanted or was even interested in being a gentleman farmer.

In 1993 Joachim took over Schackenborg, which turned out to have been neglected for many years, was hopelessly oldfashioned and in serious need of a major renovation. The agricultural part of the estate was also in serious need of investments and then he also inherited a debt of 20 million DKK,
As Joachim's personal fortune must have been very limited, his parents had to help him financially, that's no secret. Nor is it a secret that this led to a split between the DRF and the Schack family.

Last year Schackenborg the estate, for the first time in years had a solid surplus of 400.000 DKK. (Usually the surplus is after the management i.e. Joachim and our Marie, have got their "salary").
He also had a loan in Schackenborg the estate for 40 million DKK, supposedly to pay for investments but also running costs of the estate. - We must keep in mind that investmens and loans are tax deductable. Joachim do not pay tax of his apanage and personal expenditure, but he pay tax of his estate and investments.

We must also keep in mind that the divorse from Alexandra was very costly for Joachim.

Scackenborg the manor and estate was recently valued at 130 million DKK, not counting livestock, machinery and other assets, but only the value of the land and buildings.
The new foundation, which very much consists of a number of Joachim's very wealthy friends took over the manor and land for 100 million DKK, provided Joachim paid off the debt of 40 million DKK. On top of that Joachim returned 13 million DKK, which was a part of a public wedding present for which he renovated parts of the manor.
In other words: the foundation have taken over a renovated manor, a modernized farm and lands and buildings worth more than 130 million DKK, for what is de facto 47 million DKK. That is a serious bargain!
The foundation is also created for "the common good" of the public, which means further tax deductions, making this investment by Joachim's friends even more palatable.

Apart from that Joachim still owns land and buildings in the area. The value is uncertain but conservative estimates puts the value in the tens of millions of DKK.
That means that Joachim instead of having to struggle to a considerable degree (and how much can be debated since he apparantly didn't have to sell off other assets in order to keep Schackenborg) now is free of any debt and he is at the very least, repeat very least, worth some 70 million DKK personally. That is very serious money!

With four children who by law has the right to an equal share of the inheritance, Joachim has ensured that all his children now can have a comfortable life after his death. - It is after all a problem to share the value of Schackenborg into four parts without having to sell the estate eventually anyway. Even two parts would be crippling. Because those children who do not want to have anything to do with Schackenborg will have to be bought out.

The court has confirmed that QMII for a long time has been kept fully informed and most likely gave her OK to the proceedings. Whether that was in her capacity as the head of the DRF or as a mother who helped her son is unclear. Perhaps both.

We must also keep in mind that Joachim, nor the DRF, as such has a particular personal affiliation with Southern Jutland. The DRF has rarely lived outside of the greater Copenhagen area for at least the past 500 years. Gråsten and Marselisborg manors and the hunting lodge in Trend are temporary residences.
Joachim is a patron of the foundation behind Schackenborg and as such he has apparantly been given free access to come and live there when he wants to. Probably during holidays. It will of course remain to be seen how much time his family will actually spend there.

The story about his two youngest children needing to remain in one insitution or school, rather than pendling between two, is in my opinion secondary and actually more of a bonus. There are schools in Southern Jutland, also schools of high standard, albeit some distance away from Schackenborg. The better schools are obviously located in the major cities, so Copenhagen is an obvious choice for a family like Joachim's to settle. On a personal level I can easily understand the argument about considering the needs of your children.

It is very much speculated and to a considerable degree expeted that Joachim and Marie will take over considerably more public duties in the future. With M&F de facto being the regent couple already now, and with the Regent Couple being in semi-retirement (certainly in regards to PH) that must be considered a logical move. It will after all be some twenty years before M&F's children can take over in earnest.

So looking at the issue as emotionaly detached as possible, Joachim has made a very sound choice. It will, at least for a period make him unpopular, but then Joachim has never been particular popular and a glance at his bank account will probably be a comfort...

Was it wise? IMO? - You bet! He has spend twenty years building up Schackenborg and he is now reaping the fruits. What was the alternative? Keep struggling? Going bankrupt? - Knowing that there would be a more than serious risk of Schackenborg having to be sold anyway after his death.

Was it moral? IMO? - Why not? Just because he's royal why shouldn't he be allowed to ensure his future and not least the future of his children financially?
We must keep in mind that Joachim's dynasty is now only one generation or perhaps just one marriage away from being commoners. It is very likely that most of Joachim's children and certainly grandchildren will be reduced to counts/countesses of Montpezat.
I cannot blame him for planning for that eventuallity.

Is he deserting Southern Jutland? IMO? - Yes. Just keep in mind: He was never asked whether he wanted to settle there in the first place.
It is a deep pity Joachim left Schackenborg, when you look at it from outside Copenhagen. Because the royal affilliation is important, perhaps more today than previous because Copenhagen is no longer the absolute centre of Denmark.
Unfortunately we will have to wait another 20-25 years before we may expect a royal family to settle outside Copenhagen. And that family will probably be one of M&F's children.
I think it would be a very nice touch if the DRF, and perhaps especially the Regent Couple, (since they don't have young children) were to visit the rest of the country and also live (Gråsten and Marselisborg) more often than they do now.

Am I disappointed that J&M leave Schackenborg? Yes, a little. It would have been nice to have members of the DRF living outside of Copenhagen and they did mean a lot to the locals. I also realise howeve that it was perhaps utopian to think that a member of the DRF, who are comparatively poor, to be able economically to live at a manor.
Perhaps Schackenborg will quietly be taken over by the state and in time become another residence, because in 25-30 years from now they may be an acute shortage of homes for junior members of the DRF.
  #425  
Old 07-11-2014, 08:41 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bridgetown, Barbados
Posts: 663
I also wonder if Prince Joachim has to re-pay his parents now since they would have helped him financially in the early years when Shackenborg had a 20 million dollar debt. I would also imagine that his parents helped him financially when he got divorced from Princess Alexandra.

So not only would Joachim have to re-pay the 40 million debt but debts to his parents as well.

Wasn't it stated by QMII that the crown princely family will take over Grasten eventually? I wonder how soon that would happen now that Joachim and his family are leaving Shackenborg?
  #426  
Old 07-11-2014, 09:55 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Philadelphia, United States
Posts: 3,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post

The new foundation, which very much consists of a number of Joachim's very wealthy friends took over the manor and land for 100 million DKK, provided Joachim paid off the debt of 40 million DKK. On top of that Joachim returned 13 million DKK, which was a part of a public wedding present for which he renovated parts of the manor.
In other words: the foundation have taken over a renovated manor, a modernized farm and lands and buildings worth more than 130 million DKK, for what is de facto 47 million DKK. That is a serious bargain!
The foundation is also created for "the common good" of the public, which means further tax deductions, making this investment by Joachim's friends even more palatable.

And people say there's no longer any influence that accrues to being royal!
  #427  
Old 07-12-2014, 04:01 AM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
I also wonder if Prince Joachim has to re-pay his parents now since they would have helped him financially in the early years when Shackenborg had a 20 million dollar debt. I would also imagine that his parents helped him financially when he got divorced from Princess Alexandra.

So not only would Joachim have to re-pay the 40 million debt but debts to his parents as well.

Wasn't it stated by QMII that the crown princely family will take over Grasten eventually? I wonder how soon that would happen now that Joachim and his family are leaving Shackenborg?
That is not impossible or it might be deducted from his inheritance, which means that he after the deaths of the Regent Couple might have ended up with very little. That's not a concern for him now.

M&F will indeed take over Gråsten, but as they are bound to do that anyway it's a question whether they will take over before the death of QMII.
Personally I don't think they'll live that much at Gråsten.
They are very fond of Trend and I will imagine they will keep coming there often, while Gråsten and Marselisborg will be visited less often than now.
  #428  
Old 07-12-2014, 06:25 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bridgetown, Barbados
Posts: 663
Thanks Muhler! Is there any idea how much the regent couple are worth in terms of money and assets?
  #429  
Old 07-12-2014, 07:40 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,777
I've heard a figure around 50 million DKK. How accurate that is I don't know, but it seems very plausible to me.
  #430  
Old 07-13-2014, 01:02 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 628
I've always found the story of how Joachim inherited Shackenborg to be strange. Besides the point brought up by others regarding how young he was when the decision was made for him, I don't understand how the royal family didn't realize what a money pit the place was before it was given to their son. Even without the top notch financial advisors they had access to, wouldn't they, I don't know, actually have a look around the place, ask some questions, do some research prior to accepting the offer?

I know that rationally Joachim can't be expected to remain in a place and spend his life doing something that's not working for him on a personal or financial level. That being said, I feel there is something a little off putting about this situation, although I can't put my finger on why.
  #431  
Old 07-13-2014, 07:33 AM
Fox's Avatar
Fox Fox is offline
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 47
There are very different opinions on the matter.

I'm too a bit confused.

Mik Schack says he didn't want the place due to debts. And as the heir he had to pay tax of the value of the property if he enherited.

I can imagine that when Joachim got the properties as a gift, he was excepted from paying tax of the value due to his status as a royal. But that is only my guess.

But if my guess if right, then it was a whole other situation for Joachim. He also got several millions in a gift from a collection amongst the danes when he married Alexandra. And the restoration was mainly paid out of these money.

The latest critisism is that he actually received the properties without any debts and now he has sold it for 100 mio kroner. I don't know whether that is true.
  #432  
Old 07-13-2014, 09:01 AM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,777
It is true.
Schackenborg was very neglegted.

The debt at the time was 20 million DKK. Such debt (or more correctly a loan) in property is made public and is verifiable.

The public gift amounted to 13 million DKK, which was indeed used to restore the manor, but not all of it. That amount has been paid back to the foundation. - Something Joachim actually didn't have to, since the money was used on the manor and didn't go into his own pocket.

Mik Schack has stated recently that he fully understands Joachim. Mik Schack certainly didn't have the means either to run Schackenborg, let alone restoring it.

As for the alarm bells not ringing back in 1993: Well, perhaps the DRF trusted the Schacks not to leave a manor that was in such a sorry state?
I imagine the Schacks hardly had the means to do something about the place either and so did nothing and said nothing. No wonder it came to a rift...
  #433  
Old 07-14-2014, 03:41 PM
Fox's Avatar
Fox Fox is offline
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 47
Gråsten is owned by the state but Queen Ingrid got the right to use it when she and Frederik married.

I'm guessing the right to use Gråsten will be passed down from Queen Margrethe to Frederik.
  #434  
Old 07-17-2014, 03:12 AM
iceflower's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: , Germany
Posts: 32,737
.

Time to close this thread. Thanks for all your contributions!
The new thread can be found here.
__________________

__________________
**** Welcome aboard! ****
Closed Thread

Tags
general news of prince joachim, general news of princess marie, general news thread, prince joachim, prince joachim and princess marie, princess marie, princess marie at fashion shows


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
General News about Joachim, Marie and Family Part 4: July 2014 - iceflower Prince Joachim, Princess Marie and Family 292 11-05-2016 09:55 AM
General News about Frederik, Mary and Family 12: August 2013 - July 2014 dazzling Current Events Archive 601 07-17-2014 03:04 AM
Prince Joachim & Princess Marie visit Lyon, France: January 24-25, 2011 dazzling Prince Joachim, Princess Marie and Family 34 01-28-2011 06:35 AM
General News about Joachim, Marie and Family 2: August 2009 - January 2011 dazzling Current Events Archive 401 01-08-2011 01:25 AM
General News about Joachim, Marie and Family 1: December 2007 - August 2009 isabelle 53 Current Events Archive 399 08-17-2009 04:08 PM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style countess of wessex's eveningwear coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events danish royal family duarte duchess of cambridge e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece jean kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess madeleine fashion princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes fashion queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania royal fashion september 2016 spanish queen state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:26 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises