Sarah, Duchess of York Current Events 17: June 2011-December 2013

[Kataryn]

On another note, why can't somebody in a higher position be friends with a servant or someone who works for them; it seems like prejudice and distasteful to say the invisible line should never be crossed and never treat a servant as nothing else but that.

It is a very old custom and will not be anachronistic as long as there are people: the very idea of friendship means some sort of equality which is difficult to achieve as long as one orders the other around. Normally a situation like that with two different scenarios interchanging at different times (master-servant, friend-friend) leads to a different view of where they stand at different times. And that must not but in most cases leads to trouble eventually. Which prudent people best avoid.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I don't think servants have to be "bossed" around. You cantreat someone well and ask them can they do this as opposed to go so this. I have been friends and had relationships with bosses and teachers where the first part of the relationship wasn't equal as you say. I just think this idea of servants can't be people and can't be treated as anything more but a servant is archaic.

 

[PrinceS]

Thanks for the reply! A follow-up question for anyone on the forum.

I remember reading a long time ago that the Duke of Windsor insisted that servants call his wife "Your Royal Highness". I realize Sarah's situation is different, but I'm wondering how servants in Royal Lodge address her? "Your Grace", "Your Royal Highness", "Madame"?

 

[Baroness of Books]

Well, Sarah's no longer a royal highness as a result of their divorce and I doubt Andrew would insist on her being referred to as such. I would think perhaps "ma'am" would do.

 

[nascarlucy]

Prince Andrew insisted that they call Sarah her royal highness when they were married to each other as a matter of respect as I think anyone in his position would. Now that they are divorced as has been stated, he probably doesn't insist on it. I doubt that she's called Sarah.

Royalty and servants are on two different levels. It's not the same thing as a relationship between a boss and his workers or a teacher his/her students. In all of these relationships one has authority over the others but if the student leaves the class, leaves school or the employee quits or goes to another job, the relationship would change. The relationship depending on many factors could become more equalized. This would be you're average person.

This would never be the case with royalty and servants as the balance of power and position would be the issue. I would imagine it's best if it's kept that way.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Must be a British thing because I completely disagree, you can find friendship anywhere no matter what class you come from. With the way you talk it would be impossible for anyone who is royalty to find a friend because the status' will not be equal. I also seem to remember Princess Margaret falling in love with a servant, and in other situations where the relationship between servant and whoever they were serving was closer than the relationship with their own family; and some of those actually did occur in England so I suppose this attitude isnt just a British thing. Sarah found one bad apple, doesnt mean she should never consider another servant her friend.
As to what Sarah is addressed as, it can't be HRH so I would assume Miss Ferguson.
There have been some in this thread who have theorized that Sarah's silence could be attributed to the BRF holding the Turkey thing over her head and finally forcing her to shut up; I wonder how long such a situation could last?

 

[PrinceS]

I would assume Miss Ferguson.

Funny that you mention that. I thought of that after I posed my question and then remembered reading that her last name became ", Duchess of York" after her divorce.

So I'm guessing (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that it would technically be OK to call her "Ms. , Duchess of York". She wouldn't be "Your Ladyship", right?

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Miss Duchess of York? Would she really go by that? After I made my post I thought perhaps she would be Miss York, it wouldn't be confusing with her daughters who would be referred to as HRH right?

 

[Kataryn]

Miss Duchess of York? Would she really go by that? After I made my post I thought perhaps she would be Miss York, it wouldn't be confusing with her daughters who would be referred to as HRH right?

It's an interesting and difficult question. As she herself is not reverting back to Miss Ferguson, but sticks to Sarah, Duchess of York she will use the title as part of her name somehow. So no Mrs. MOuntbatten-Windsor for her either. Probably she can be addressed as "Duchess" and then as "Ma'am"?

 

[PrinceS]

Probably she can be addressed as "Duchess" and then as "Ma'am"?

Thanks for that clarification, Kataryn. Actually, I think Oprah Winfrey called her "Duchess" in Finding Sarah.

And if the Yorks remarry when things change in Andrews family she would then revert back to "Your Royal Highness" and it would be inappropriate to refer to her as "Sarah" anymore. Is that right?

(It's a bit confusing but I think it's starting to make sense now)

 

[Artemisia]

As former wife of a peer, Sarah is entitled to use according title and style (Sarah, Duchess of York) until she remarries. She was in fact a Royal Highness for a brief period after her divorce and until 1997 when the Queen issued Letters Patent regarding the former wives of British Princes.

If Andrew and Sarah remarry (to each other), Sarah would automatically become Her Royal Highness, The Duchess of York. The only way Sarah could be stopped from using the title of Royal Highness is if the Sovereign of the time issues Letters Patent depriving her of the style; although it is unlikely to happen, it is not impossible - George VI issues similar Letters Parent in regards to the Duchess of Windsor (who would otherwise automatically be a Royal Highness and British Princess by marriage).

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Yes Sarah is DoY, but if she is called Miss___ what fills in the blank, I for one know that she will always be DoY in a similar way that Diana was PoW after the divorce. For me the question what if anything fills in the blank after Miss __.

 

[Baroness of Books]

Right, there's no denying that she's Duchess of York, but I think as Kataryn had mentioned, calling her Duchess initially and then "ma'am" afterward might be fitting. Personally, I think "Duchess" is awkward-sounding, but it's less formal, I think, than "ma'am," though I think the latter's also a correct form of address.

 

[Artemisia]

Ma'am is correct form of address not only for Duchesses, but also for virtually any royal and noble lady, from the Queen to a Viscountess.

Strictly speaking, the proper form of address to a Duchess (whether in her own right, wife, former wife, or a dowager) is Your Grace, so I'd assume that's how Prince Andrew's staff refers to Sarah now. For the duration of her marriage to Prince Andrew, Sarah - as a Royal Peeress (by marriage), would have been referred to as Your Royal Highness first, and Ma'am thereafter.

 

[NGalitzine]

Sarah is not Her Grace in the same way that she is not HRH. Her Grace is a style that applies to Duchesses and Dowager Duchesses but not to the ex wives of dukes. I think Sarah would have to be satisfied with being Ma'am.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

Yes Sarah is DoY, but if she is called Miss___ what fills in the blank, I for one know that she will always be DoY in a similar way that Diana was PoW after the divorce. For me the question what if anything fills in the blank after Miss __.

Sarah will never again be known as "Miss". She has been a married woman who has divorced. Miss is reserved for women who have never been married, unless they prefer to be known as "Ms.", meaning undisclosed marital status, once only used for business but now used everywhere.

She should only be known as Sarah, Duchess of York, the former Sarah Ferguson, unless she remarries.

 

[Artemisia]

Sarah is not Her Grace in the same way that she is not HRH. Her Grace is a style that applies to Duchesses and Dowager Duchesses but not to the ex wives of dukes. I think Sarah would have to be satisfied with being Ma'am.

Sarah isn't a Royal Highness because Letters Patent issued by the Queen in 1997 removed the right of former wives of the British Princes to use the title; for a brief period after her divorce and before the 1997 Letters Patent Sarah was indeed a HRH. The style of Your Grace is used to address non-royal dukes and their spouses; there is no law or rule (that I know of) that forbids the use of the style for former wives of dukes. Sarah is former wife of a Duke; since her higher style of Royal Highness was removed from her, she has to use the "lower" style of Grace.

Ma'am is probably the most used form of address for all royal and noble ladies, so logically it should be often used when addressing Sarah as well.

 

[ladongas]

Debrett's

Here's what Debrett's has to say about addressing the former wife of a duke:

The recommended (social) style of address is as follows:

Beginning of letter Dear Duchess

End of letter Yours sincerely

Envelope Jillian, Duchess of Hamilton

Verbal communication Duchess

Invitation Jillian, Duchess of Hamilton

Description in conversation The Duchess of Hamilton

List of Directors or Patrons Jillian, Duchess of Hamilton

Place card Jillian, Duchess of Hamilton

Legal document Jillian Duchess of Hamilton

*If the former wife of a duke subsequently remarries she adopts her style of address from her present husband. Thus if Jillian, Duchess of Hamilton, marries Mr Cuthbert Robinson she becomes Mrs Cuthbert Robinson.






Address the Former Wife of a Duke - Form of Address, authoritative guide to Addressing Wives of Dukes

 

[iceflower]

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Sarah, Duchess of York, pictured in London on May 3, 2012.



** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 ** Pic 3 **

 

[principessa]

The Duchess of York goes on trial in Turkey over secret orphanage documentary

Duchess of York goes on trial in Turkey over secret orphanage documentary | GlobalPost

What do you think how the sentence will be? Freedom or prison?

 

[Princess of Durham]

I'm curious as to why Sarah seems to find it necessary to hold the hand of the person with whom she is walking. It looks rather silly at this point when it's her daughters, but really strange when it is some other adult.

 

[sndral]

Trial of Duchess of York begins in Ankara

Another article about the trial, w/ a bit of explanation about the extradition request - which may explain why Sarah has not been doing her usual jetting around to other countries.

Re: the handholding, I've seen that in some countries it is the norm for adult women (usually close friends or siblings) to hold hands in public - but I've never thought this to be the case in Britain - my guess would be that she grabbed the helper's hand when she saw/passed close to the flashes of the cameras. Nice to see a longer skirt length - but what's up w/ the white bandages on her feet, again?

 

[Mermaid1962]

I think that she'll be sentenced to prison. As far as I can see, she did what she's accused of doing. There was no attempt by the documentary makers to hide the identities of the children--which seems to have been the law which had been broken. There should have been more research done on Turkish law before this documentary was screened. While I don't think there's any possibility that Sarah will "do time"--given that the British government won't extradite her--I do think that Sarah might have learned a hard lesson from this. I think that the others who made the documentary are responsible as well.

The Duchess of York goes on trial in Turkey over secret orphanage documentary

Duchess of York goes on trial in Turkey over secret orphanage documentary | GlobalPost

What do you think how the sentence will be? Freedom or prison?

 

[NGalitzine]

I really don't know what outcome to hope for. A conviction that would pretty much mean she cannot leave the UK so she could be kept on a short leash, or an acquittal that would mean she could leave the UK.

 

[Baroness of Books]

I have a feeling she'll be sentenced to prison in absentia, so it might very well be the short rein confined to the UK.

 

[Artemisia]

Purely PR wise, this is actually a win for Sarah and a definite lose for Turkey.
Convicted or not, Sarah will be seen as something of a martyr, a person who is prosecuted for trying to aid helpless children and highlight their plight.
Turkey, on the other hand, will be seen a bully who, instead of resolving the issues presented in the documentary, chose to instead prosecute those who showed their failures. A really bad move on the part of the Turkish officials; it's not as though there is actually any chance Sarah will be de facto sentenced. All this trial will achieve is negative publicity for the country.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Agreed. Turkey appears as a backward country that is trying to censor images of suffering children. Sarah appears both courageous and martyr-like in comparison.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

NGalitzine mentioned that a conviction would mean she cannot leave the UK; if that happens would she not be able to leave for a few months, a year, years, or as long as her prison sentence.
Just to play Devil's Advocate, but most orphanages throughout the world suck and need some serious reforms. From the little I know of what is going on it appears Sarah is in trouble for showing the faces of minors on tv.

 

[Artemisia]

I think it would be more accurate to say that if convicted, Sarah is unlikely to travel to the countries that have extradition treaties with Turkey. If she ever wanted to, Sarah would be, for example, more than welcome to visit Armenia at any time without any fears of extradition.

Apart from showing faces of minors on TV, Sarah is also accused of a false declaration (of her plans for the visit) and trespassing into a Government institution. However, the main issue from Turkey's point of view is undoubtedly the less than flattering portrayal in the documentary. Turkey has some incredibly strict laws regarding "insults" towards the state. It is enough to mention their Article 301, which saw Nobel prize recipient Orhan Pamuk being prosecuted ex post facto for daring to comment on one of the more sensitive topics in Turkey's history.

 

[Princess BellyFlop]

Agreed. Turkey appears as a backward country that is trying to censor images of suffering children. Sarah appears both courageous and martyr-like in comparison.

Maybe to some, but to others she looks more like a fake looking for publicity. I just no longer believes in her sincerity towards any cause except her own personae