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  #341  
Old 10-12-2016, 06:08 PM
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Yes!

In my desperate fantasies Europe and the rest of the world are paying no attention at all to this truly awful farce of an election. But of course they are!

I have friends who have been chatted up by visiting tourists who wonder how it all came to this. Lord knows how the U.S. will recover, and how future generations will look back on it.

Appalling.
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  #342  
Old 10-12-2016, 06:53 PM
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I certainly think this Presidential election is one out of the box. I've been following it with great interest with members of my family, but then, I love politics! It seems to be rolling towards a foregone conclusion at the moment, thank God, but in the future I can imagine several books, by both journalists, political pundits and constitutional historians about what's transpired in the last twelve months.
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  #343  
Old 10-12-2016, 07:05 PM
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It's all just very unseemly and simply shows politics and politician-wannabes in an extremely bad and undignified light. The role of any head of state is a serious and grave matter and, without a doubt, the conduct of all heads of state or proposed head of state should always be without reproach.

I do wish the role of president was not a political one!
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  #344  
Old 10-12-2016, 07:27 PM
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In 1992 when the Democratic presidential candidate appeared on late night TV and expounded on the benefits of boxers vs. briefs underwear and what his personal preferences were, I was horrified. But I consoled myself with the thought that surely that was as low as discourse in American politics was likely to go...ever.

Fast forward to 2016 with a candidate for the office of President of the United States reassuring the electorate, nay a global audience, about the size of his genitalia during a televised debate .

It's simply not possible to overstate how disgusted and ashamed I am with the quality and caliber of candidates for president that we have to choose from in 2016.
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  #345  
Old 10-12-2016, 09:19 PM
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Who needs a Head of State that does nothing of importance. Who needs a Head of State that is a foreigner, as in the case of Canada and Australia, among other. Elections may be difficult, this one is bizarre, but no more bizarre than Brexit. We will get through it. And who needs a head of state that is just born to the position, good or bad. We have had good presidents and some bad ones, but at least they had the tough job. They didn't linger in office for 50 years or so. And you could touch them. And remember Charles spoke of being a tampon, he will be a head of state one day.
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  #346  
Old 10-12-2016, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Who needs a Head of State that does nothing of importance. Who needs a Head of State that is a foreigner, as in the case of Canada and Australia, among other. Elections may be difficult, this one is bizarre, but no more bizarre than Brexit. We will get through it. And who needs a head of state that is just born to the position, good or bad. We have had good presidents and some bad ones, but at least they had the tough job. They didn't linger in office for 50 years or so. And you could touch them. And remember Charles spoke of being a tampon, he will be a head of state one day.
I was with you till the tampon thing. I don't think the tampon thing will stop Charles being a good head of state. As I understand it, Bill Clinton is still generally regarded as having been a good president, despite his somewhat odd views as to what constitutes sexual relations, and he's not the only president who had an affair/affairs. I don't think that sort of stuff is relevant to a person's ability to be a good politician/head of state, but we here in Australia tend not to care much about what our politicians do in their private lives.

There are heads of state that have a big role in the running of a country, and heads of state that have a limited role that is largely ceremonial. I favour for us a republican model based on the Westminster system, which is what we have already, with a largely ceremonial head of state like they have in Ireland, and that is a very different model from the US one. I think the ceremonial role carried out by the 'minimalist' heads of state is still important, but I don't think it should be given to someone for life just because they were born to it.
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  #347  
Old 10-12-2016, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Who needs a Head of State that does nothing of importance. Who needs a Head of State that is a foreigner, as in the case of Canada and Australia, among other. Elections may be difficult, this one is bizarre, but no more bizarre than Brexit. We will get through it. And who needs a head of state that is just born to the position, good or bad. We have had good presidents and some bad ones, but at least they had the tough job. They didn't linger in office for 50 years or so. And you could touch them. And remember Charles spoke of being a tampon, he will be a head of state one day.
"Nothing of importance" might not be earth-shattering activities, but head of state duties have to be done by someone: greeting ambassadors, hosting state dinners and visits, and being a general cheerleader for the country.

There is no inherent reason why the US method (combining head of state and head of government into one elected partisan political job) has to be used, and there are plenty of reasons why the head of state job should be separate from the head of government job, and at least nonpartisan.

Does over $1 billion need to be spent every 4 years to pick someone to host state dinners? No. Should a head of state be attacking and insulting the large portion of the population that did not vote for him or her? No. That's how we do it in the US, however.

I vote for the British or Canadian, or even the German, head of state model, not the US's.
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  #348  
Old 10-13-2016, 10:54 AM
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No thank you. I like having the option of voting out an Administration every four years if I choose to.

The idea of my tax dollars being used to support the incredibly lavish lifestyle of people I neither like nor respect-not to mention their occasionally very unsatisfactory spouses- for the entirety of their lives and mine simply because of an accident of birth is not my idea of a good time.

As I posted before, as a history lover I am fascinated by the idea of monarchy and I love reading about aristocratic and Royal Europe.

But I feel incredibly blessed that I am American born and that so were my parents and grandparents. I love our country (triumphant, glorious but often ugly history) and I love our system of Government as imperfect as it is.
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  #349  
Old 10-13-2016, 11:10 AM
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Anyone who fears that by becoming a republic we would condemn ourselves to a presidency held by a perpetual succession of superannuated politicians - at the moment presumably a choice between Heath, Kinnock, Thatcher and Major - is an optimist.

The alternative nightmare scenario looks not to the European model but to the American, where the essentials for election to the presidency appear to be ruthless ambition, access to vast wealth, reckless promises of patronage and preferment, effective control of a big slice of the media and a plausible TV manner.

We don’t know when we are well off.


Gordon Medcalf, The Independent, 10th September 1997.
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  #350  
Old 10-13-2016, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by CSENYC View Post
"Nothing of importance" might not be earth-shattering activities, but head of state duties have to be done by someone: greeting ambassadors, hosting state dinners and visits, and being a general cheerleader for the country.

There is no inherent reason why the US method (combining head of state and head of government into one elected partisan political job) has to be used, and there are plenty of reasons why the head of state job should be separate from the head of government job, and at least nonpartisan.

Does over $1 billion need to be spent every 4 years to pick someone to host state dinners? No. Should a head of state be attacking and insulting the large portion of the population that did not vote for him or her? No. That's how we do it in the US, however.

I vote for the British or Canadian, or even the German, head of state model, not the US's.
What I've bolded actually made me go back to my newsfeed here and find something that I hadn't realized before because, frankly, neither candidates are addressing it at all and the focus has been on sexual innuendos and supposed abuses and locker room talk that's happened years and years ago. Its been said that now its even going to be fired up even more with the Trump campaign quoted as saying they're going to make Bill Clinton look like a Bill Cosby even.

The issue that these candidates should be focusing on is something that actually should concern each and every American. The neediest Americans will be short $100 billion in delayed tax refunds at a time when they're really counting on it. Chaos may ensue, an issue neither presidential candidate is addressing.

Impending Y2K-like chaos neither candidate is addressing - AOL Finance

To be absolutely honest and its my own opinion is that I would much prefer a head of state that represents all of the American people outside of politics and party platforms and lobbyist groups and special interest groups that our present head of state has the ability to listen to, heed and act on if he so chooses. The only thing that the USA has that represents all Americans is our flag. A quote from Abraham Lincoln says it best. "Government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish from the face of the earth".

I'd much prefer a living, human being that represents that.
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  #351  
Old 10-13-2016, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post


No thank you. I like having the option of voting out an Administration every four years if I choose to.

The idea of my tax dollars being used to support the incredibly lavish lifestyle of people I neither like nor respect-not to mention their occasionally very unsatisfactory spouses- for the entirety of their lives and mine simply because of an accident of birth is not my idea of a good time.

As I posted before, as a history lover I am fascinated by the idea of Monarchy and I love reading about aristocratic and Royal Europe.

But I feel incredibly blessed that I am American born and that so were my parents and grandparents. I love our country (triumphant, glorious but often ugly history) and I love our system of Government as imperfect as it is.

In all modern European kingdoms, voters have the opportunity to vote out a government periodically if they choose to do so. The monarch doesn't run the government or the administration as you put it, so I don't understand your point.

On your second point, the amount of money European taxpayers pay to support the "lavish lifestyle" of royal families is about the same or less than we pay in republics to support the president and former presidents. Most of the money is actually used to pay the staff of the Head of State and to pay for security and maintenance of official residences.

Furthermore, I am pretty convinced there are proportionally far more people who dislike their "presidents and their despicable wives" than people who dislike their kings and queens. The reason for that is quite simple actually: the president is a partisan politician and, naturally, anyone who supports another party or disagrees with his policies will dislike him; the monarch, on the other hand, doesn't belong to any party and doesn't set any public policy, so he/she is above political controversy and, therefore, tends to be far more popular.
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  #352  
Old 10-13-2016, 11:49 AM
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Thatcher knew

Those who imagine that a politician would make a better figurehead than a hereditary monarch might perhaps make the acquaintance of more politicians.


Baroness Thatcher, November 1995.
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  #353  
Old 10-13-2016, 11:51 AM
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Point taken mbruno, but I still fail to see how having an American figurehead monarch/dynasty who lives large on the taxpayer dime for life while doing little more than wearing ancient crown jewels well and cutting ribbons would be superior to the electoral process that has served us more than well for over 200 years, as imperfect as it us.

Even more curious is that if our system of government and it's leaders are so "despicable" why have millions upon millions literally risked their lives to cross our borders (legally and illegally) and live here from the beginning?

Why are they still doing so as we speak?

One of the many brilliant things about being an American is that no one who prefers to live under a constitutional monarch is ever forced to remain here.

Anyone who prefers another system of government over our own is free to leave and do so.

[The only thing that the USA has that represents all Americans is our flag. A quote from Abraham Lincoln says it best. "Government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish from the face of the earth".

I'd much prefer a living, human being that represents that.]

No one has ever stated it more perfectly than the great Abraham Lincoln Osipi...thank you.
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  #354  
Old 10-13-2016, 11:52 AM
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Mbruno, I agree with your post.

Also, for Moonmaiden's post, my tax dollars are spent to support a President who lives lavishly--in some respects much more lavishly than European royalty (i.e., the President has his or her own plane, goes on lavish vacations, etc.).

I could deal a lot better with a jerk as a head of state if the head of state was born into the position, rather than a jerk who was elected by "the other side". If the jerk is born into the position, then all of us are stuck with it. With an elected jerk, half the country loves the person and the person taunts the other half of the country, and only "my side" is afflicted with the situation.

Then again, I'm not a member of either of the two major parties, so the taunts and insults by recent heads of state haven't been targeted at me; they're still offensive, though.

Moonmaiden23, our form of government hasn't necessarily served us as well as other forms of government could have. Just because it hasn't completely broken down--yet--doesn't mean that it's immune from improvement.
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  #355  
Old 10-13-2016, 12:20 PM
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And since you are so dissatisfied with the way your tax dollars are spent on the "jerks" elected by the people, what is preventing you from emigrating? A Cold War type barbed wire wall?

Of course not.
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  #356  
Old 10-13-2016, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Who needs a Head of State that does nothing of importance. Who needs a Head of State that is a foreigner, as in the case of Canada and Australia, among other. Elections may be difficult, this one is bizarre, but no more bizarre than Brexit. We will get through it. And who needs a head of state that is just born to the position, good or bad. We have had good presidents and some bad ones, but at least they had the tough job. They didn't linger in office for 50 years or so. And you could touch them. And remember Charles spoke of being a tampon, he will be a head of state one day.
Are gestures that represent a nation's remembrance of events and tragedies past, its acknowledgement of the forgotten, its respect for the services, its recognition of achievements & successes, its gratitude and its honouring of the meritorious of no importance?

When an elected politician pins on a medal, cuts a ribbon, lays a wreath, attends a funeral, or visits a disaster scene, factory, charitable organisation or a children's hospital, s/he has his/her sights on the opinion polls and re-election.

When a Monarch - or his/her representative - does it, s/he does it as a living symbol on behalf of the nation. Simultaneously, s/he is freeing up the elected politician to do the job s/he was elected to do, i.e. fix the economy, unemployment, healthcare....

We're talking about two totally different "jobs". Each has value.
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  #357  
Old 10-13-2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Point taken mbruno, but I still fail to see how having an American figurehead monarch/dynasty who lives large on the taxpayer dime for life while doing little more than wearing ancient crown jewels well and cutting ribbons would be superior to the electoral process that has served us more than well for over 200 years, as imperfect as it us.

Even more curious is that if our system of government and it's leaders are so "despicable" why have millions upon millions literally risked their lives to cross our borders (legally and illegally) and live here from the beginning?

Why are they still doing so as we speak?

One of the many brilliant things about being an American is that no one who prefers to live under a constitutional monarch is ever forced to remain here.

Anyone who prefers another system of government over our own is free to leave and do so.

[The only thing that the USA has that represents all Americans is our flag. A quote from Abraham Lincoln says it best. "Government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish from the face of the earth".

I'd much prefer a living, human being that represents that.]


No one has ever stated it more perfectly than the great Abraham Lincoln Osipi...thank you.
I just feel I need to clarify that when I wrote the bolded part that were my words quoted by Moonmaiden23, I was speaking in favor of having an apolitical head of state for the USA.
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  #358  
Old 10-13-2016, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post


And since you are so dissatisfied with the way your tax dollars are spent on the "jerks" elected by the people, what is preventing you from emigrating? A Cold War type barbed wire wall?

Of course not.
What a nasty attitude: "accept the US as-is or leave".

That's a recipe for disaster for the US. I hope that you didn't tell people who fought for civil rights and progress what you just told me.

Countries should be open to change.
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  #359  
Old 10-13-2016, 01:59 PM
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In fact CSENYC, I think the men, women and children who faced police dogs and fire hoses in the Deep South during the Civil Rights movement are as much American heroes as soldiers who lost their lives in 1776 to make the American colonies a free and democratic Republic. I think they are as heroic as the men and women who fought and died the Civil War to guarantee that the Bill of Rights declaration that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL was not contradicted by the monstrous system of chattel slavery.

Meanwhile the monarchists of Europe during that conflict were rooting for America to implode in order to confirm their conviction that government of the people and by the people could not work.

I wonder what the people who fought and died in those wars would have to say about your apparent belief that all their blood was spilled in vain, and that kings and queens are best after all?

I don't think are system is perfect, very far from it. I do think there is always room for change.

Just not the kind you and yours are advocating.
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  #360  
Old 10-13-2016, 02:20 PM
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In fact CSENYC, I think the men, women and children who faced police dogs and fire hoses in the Deep South during the Civil Rights movement are as much American heroes as soldiers who lost their lives in 1776 to make the American colonies a free and democratic Republic. I think they are as heroic as the men and women who fought and died the Civil War to guarantee that the Bill of Rights declaration that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL was not contradicted by the monstrous system of chattel slavery.

Meanwhile the monarchists of Europe during that conflict were rooting for America to implode in order to confirm their conviction that government of the people and by the people could not work.

Sorry to disagree again, but France, which was an absolute monarchy contrary to England, actually aided and supported the American revolution, and so did Spain (another absolute monarchy at the time). In fact, if it were not for French intervention, the American colonists would never have forced Britain to accept US independence.

Also, I find it hard to reconcile the myth that the American Revolution was about "men being created equal" with the reality of African slavery and native American genocide. In fact, blacks and native Americans probably fared much better in neighboring Canada under the protection of the British crown than in the American republic.
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