What happened to Rania's empowerment of women?

[Roshanah]

Since the premise is Allah will be taking care of those who do not follow his laws on judgement day, does it not defy his powers by taking his "laws" and assurance he will take care of those not following them into a human being's hands and killing someone else? I would think this would be far more sacriligeous as it seeks to place oneself as the arbiter of what is just. I don't understand the rationale here but, then again, I don't see any honor in murder.

Nope, have to agree this is a no brainer. Murder, in anyone's name, is wrong. KA and others in power in the ME may have to stand up to those who are conducting "honor killings." But change must begin somewhere. If not now, when? I can't believe anyone within these Forums truly thinks this is a good thing and I am optimistic enough to hope others will not simply be content with saying "nothing can be done" and leave it at that. I sincerely hope a leader with moral courage will emerge and bring about needed reforms.

Oh, and I know all about "customs." But just because something is a "custom" does not in and of itself make it tolerable. The world is full of stories about horrid, senseless "customs" which mercifully have been taken on and overturned by those who can discern and support "right" from eggregious wrong.

What I meant was that Honour Kilings originate from the premise that If a Muslim (although at times the male has been unpunished) has conducted sexual relations outside of Marriage, in Islam this is seen a a major sin aka Haram act. In the East the act can actually shame a family and place them into perminent destitution. That's how it is. No offence meant. I'm not saying that I agree with the extremes that some of them have gone to, but one has to realise that in a place where there isn't a welfare infrustructure as is in the West, if they loose their good name that's it for them not just destitution but in certain past cases is has been worse. Murder OBVIOUSLY is dishonourable, but what you have to understand is that in CERTAIN cases a girl has robbed her family of their good name due to her unguarded behaviour. As such certian families have suffered by ways I cannot explain.

I never said that what is customery is tollerable, I'm merely saying that the East is founded upon a different infrsutructure and as such, change cannot be expected in the same way as it is within the West. Also, I'm not criticising the West by any means.

Finally, I must also politely point out that, If a person in the West chooses to have sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage, by legal statutes nothing comes of it. But try to imagin that your way of life, means of income and marrying in the future to a good person from a good family solely depended upon the state of one's virginity, one would view it differently.

Allah S.W.T. is most gracious, most merciful and oft forgiving indeed, but if a person breaks what is stated within the Qur'an and DOES NOT REPENT of it, only in this case Allah shan't be so to such a person (we are just referring to Muslims right now) Imagine a society based upon sex only within marriage and there was no other way to be, if one was rebellious and one paid for it by the most severe terms and one's family had to take the burden. If you were in that situation how would you feel about it then.

It's not just Islam either, Judaism has the same stance, also Mary Mother of Jesus when she was with Child the Jewish community threattend to stone her because they thought she had had sex before marriage. Even today Most Jewish families run by the same code hence they teach their children to save themselves until marriage.

It's not my saying that's the way it is, I'm saying read the Qur'an and the Torah and you'll see what I mean, if one was born into a society where such a Law exists and is upheld no matter what, one cannot expect to change the infrustructure by complely uprooting it and replacing it with another over time.

Don't twist my words and say that I think that Honour killings are fine and that's it , I'm saying sometimes (percieved rightly or wrongly) it has for some families been necessary and for others an excuse. If you don't understand what I'm saying after this than I can't say anymore about it. Oh and by the way the post originally was giving the background to Honour Killings and nothing more.

Oh and if you lived in Jordan like my friends do, a girl has to be a virgin when she marries (excluding if she is a divorcee or other extenuating circumstances) because if she isn't then serious matters would have arisen from it. I say again if you came from such a region you would understand. Also just because one person says it's deemed an atrocity doesn't necesssarily mean it is. ie homosexuality is deemed by monotheistic religious texts and religions to be an abomination, yet modernity and seperating the powers of church and state say to hell with it and allow it but when it suits them they claim they are of the aforementioned religions.

2nd in Oriental culture for example if a person lies to their familiy ie if they said they married when they didn't and the family made preperations etc inc publicising it to guests and then were told the truth the Parents would deem that as dishonour (even lets say it was done for a valid reason) it would be judged the same. Although some whould say the daughter or son of the family made a mistake and that's that, in Oriental culture it's seen as a LOT more than that and the Son or Daughter of the family would be excommunicated.

Pardon me for being so blunt, you come from a culture where this is not the case, and are judging the East by the standards of your culture. Not everywhere is the same, therefore the remedy to the "problems" or issues won't be the same.

As I said before in previous post No offence meant, I wonder if anyone read the no offence bit?

 

[Roshanah]

Actually in the West a father defintely has to pay to maintain the child. It is called child support and it is strictly enforced (just ask Batman who visited Buckingham Palace)

That's only if the Child was born in wedlock. Have you read the notes that accompany the British Passport Application? There is where I read it. That if a Child was born OUT OF WEDLOCK then the Father isn't legally obliged to pay maintenance to the Child. The Child support Agency does enforce it but only when the Child is born within Wedlock. Speaking from personal knowledge, unless you know of a situation where there was a exception to the case.

 

[Roshanah]

In my opinion, the West is complicit through its ignorance, but this is a very complicated issue, one that few in the West have even heard about. People can't be expected to know everything about everything in the world. In the end, KA, as absolute monarch, is most accountable for the present situation, for he is in a singular position to change it.

Well said Papillon!

 

[Roshanah]

Hello Roshanah, welcome to TRF. I agree Rania isn't QN, she's her own individual person, and shouldn't be compared to anyone else.

Thank you for welcoming me Sommone!

 

[Reina]

WEll I can tell you that ain't so in the U.S. There are plenty of cases where a child is born out of wedlock and the dad has to pay child support or risk jail time. Actually it is the law.

That's only if the Child was born in wedlock. Have you read the noted that accompany the British Passport Application? Ther is where I read it from. That if a CHild was born OUT OF WEDLOCK then the Father isn't legally obliged to pay maintenance to the Child. The CHild support Agency does enforce it but only when the Child is born within Wedlock. Speaking from personal knowlidge, unless you know of a situation where there was a exception to the case.

 

[Roshanah]

WEll I can tell you that ain't so in the U.S. There are plenty of cases where a child is born out of wedlock and the dad has to pay child support or risk jail time. Actually it is the law.

I know it is in the USA and know of the law suit that brought it about in terms of making it law too and I respect that.

 

[maryshawn]

I agree completely. I just get tired of women bearing the brunt of these punishments......in any country or circumstance. I keep hoping some leader will step forward and take a really strong stand on the issue but am also aware that it is pragmatically difficult to balance retaining power and influence and institute meaningful reforms. But one can hope.....

I don't imply anyone here supports any of this. And I don't understand the going after the family and plunging them into poverty--so that was interesting to read. Can any leader institute meaningful change or is this truly something that is simply beyond solving? I'm starting to wonder. Battling a "mindset," as you put it so aptly, is an enormous task indeed.

The problem with honour killings is that you're not just dealing with a horrible crime but a whole mindset.
The fact is there are too many people out there that think a woman should be murdered for her misdemeanours while the man is left unpunished. It's not just a Jordanian problem or a muslim problem but is one that will take years to eliminate becuase it involves changing the very way people think and the beliefs they hold.

 

[maryshawn]

But can he without risking his power? How many people have this mindset in Jordan--roughly speaking? 50%, 25%.....fewer, more? I honestly don't know.

Well said Papillon!

 

[maryshawn]

I'm not trying to judge anyone, least of all you. I don't pretend to understand honor killings; just happen to find them deplorable. And I think we all have common ground there. And, more than that, I'm wondering if change is possible? After reading about this being a "mindset," and I think it is, how does any one leader or group of them begin to change such when it is being taught at school or home? I have done a lot of thinking about this today and wonder if KA or anyone has the wherewithall to stop this or at least make it an offence which carries such serious punishment people would think twice.....Can his regime withstand such change? Which goes back to my sincere question: How many people, roughly, do we think believe/support honor killings?

What I meant was that Honour Kilings originate from the premise that If a Muslim (although at times the male has been unpunished) has conducted sexual relations outside of Marriage, in Islam this is seen a a major sin aka Haram act. In the East the act can actually shame a family and place them into perminent destitution. That's how it is. No offence meant. I'm not saying that I agree with the extremes that some of them have gone to, but one has to realise this in a place where isn't a welfare infrustructure as in the west, if they loose their good name that's it for them not just destitution but in certain past cases is has been worse. Murder OBVIOUSLY dishonourable, but what you have to understand is that in CERTAIN cases a girl has robbed her family of their good name due to her unguarded behaviour. As such certian families have suffered by ways I cannot explain.

I never said that what is customery is tollerable, I'm merely saying that the East is founded upon a different infrsutructure and as such, change cannot be expected in the same way as it is within the west. ALso, I'm not criticising the West by any means.

Finally, I must also politely point out that, If a person in the West chooses to have sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage, by legal statutes nothing comes of it. But try to imagin that you way of life, means of income and marrying in the future to a good person from a good family solely depended upon the state of one's virginity, one would view it differently.

Allah S.W.T. is most gracious, most merciful and oft forgiving indeed, but if a person breaks what is stated within the Qur'an and DOES NOT REPENT of it, only in this case Allah shan't be so to such a person (we are just referring to Muslims right now) Imagine a society based upon sex only within marriage and there was no other way to be, one was rebellious and one paid for it by the most severe terms and one's family had to take the burden. If you were in that situation how would you feel about it then.

It's not just Islam either, Judaism has the same stance, also MAry Mother of Jesus when she was with Child the jewish community treattend to stone her because they thought she had had sex before marriage. Even today Most jewish families run by the same code hence they teach their children to save themselves untilmarriage.

It's not my saying that's the way it is, I'm saying read the Qur'an and the Torah and you'll see what I mean, if one was born into a society where such a LAw exists and is upheld no matter what, one cannot expect to chang the infrustructure by complely uprooting it and replacing it with another over time.

Don't twist my words and say that I think that Honour killings are fine and that's it , I'm saying sometimes (percieved rightly or wrongly) it has for some families been necessary and for others an excuse. If you don't understnad what I'm saying after this than I can't say anmore about it. Oh and by the way the post originally was giving the background to Honour Killings and nothing more.

Oh and if you lived in Jordan like my friends do, a girl has ot be a virgin when she marries (excluding if she is a divorcee or other extenuating circumstances) because if she isn't serious matters would have arisen. I say again if you came from such a region you would understand. Also just because one person says it's deemed an atrocity doesn't necesssarily mean it is. ie homosexuality is deemed by monotheistic religious texts and religions ot be an abomination, yet modernity and seperating the powers of church and state say to hell with it and allow it but when it suits them they claim they are of the aforementioned religions.

2nd in Oriental culture for example if a personlies to their familiy ie if they said they married when they didn't and the family made preperations etc inc publicising it to guests and thenwere told te truth the Parents would deem that as dishonour (even lets say it was done for a valid reason) it would be judged the same. Although some whould say the daughter or son of the family made a mistake and that's that, in oriental culture it's seen as a LOT more than that and the Son or Daughter of the family wouldbe excommunicated.

Pardon me for being so blunt, you come from a culture where this is not the case, and are judging the East by the standards of your culture not everywhere is the same, therefore the remedy to the "problems" or issues won't be the same.

As I said before in previous post No offence meant, I wonder if anyone read the no offence bit?

 

[Little_star]

"That's only if the Child was born in wedlock. Have you read the noted that accompany the British Passport Application? Ther is where I read it from. That if a CHild was born OUT OF WEDLOCK then the Father isn't legally obliged to pay maintenance to the Child."

Sorry to prove you wrong but all absent fathers have to pay support in the UK and the only grounds not to is lack of funds. Although the CSA has been riddled with problems and scandal.

"Can any leader institute meaningful change or is this truly something that is simply beyond solving? I'm starting to wonder. Battling a "mindset," as you put it so aptly, is an enormous task indeed."

I think to give up so easily would be an injustice to the thousands of women who are murdered. However i do think that changing the law will make littledifference, these practices will still continue, it'll just be behind closed doors where nobody knows the truth. Keeping this issue in the public forums is the best oprion at this time, letting the evil perpetrators know it will no longer be tolerated is a start.

 

[Roshanah]

"That's only if the Child was born in wedlock. Have you read the noted that accompany the British Passport Application? Ther is where I read it from. That if a CHild was born OUT OF WEDLOCK then the Father isn't legally obliged to pay maintenance to the Child."

Sorry to prove you wrong but all absent fathers have to pay support in the UK and the only grounds not to is lack of funds. Although the CSA has been riddled with problems and scandal.

"Can any leader institute meaningful change or is this truly something that is simply beyond solving? I'm starting to wonder. Battling a "mindset," as you put it so aptly, is an enormous task indeed."

I think to give up so easily would be an injustice to the thousands of women who are murdered. However i do think that changing the law will make littledifference, these practices will still continue, it'll just be behind closed doors where nobody knows the truth. Keeping this issue in the public forums is the best oprion at this time, letting the evil perpetrators know it will no longer be tolerated is a start.

That's not true, have you lived in East London, or other parts of London and the reality is that they DON'T pay. Not because I say so because it's common knowledge that 's why single parent beniitis at a premium especially in East and South London. Fact. Had you read the British Passport Application Form Notes you would have seen what I did because it says it there. Obviously you didn't.

You were talking about changing the Law, well the Law of Islam is perfect and needsnot to be changed because Allah created it. I'm not talking about the additions such as the Sunnah I mean just what Allah S.W.T. says. Also there have been cases where Muslimah have been wrongfully accused and murdered, for their killers they should meet the same fate. However as regards those who willfully do it knowing that Allah S.W.T. says it's wrong and they STILL do it (especially if from a financially challenged family) knowing that their family's especially from rural areas where they mightn't be educated will be made destitute because they couldn't just tell the man that they wanted to have 'fun' with them but only WHEN they are married.

If the girl is (only in this instance) so much in the need for fun and she can't wait and chooses to remain oblivious to the consequences in Shari'ah, what does she expect . I re-itterate only in this instance otherwise it would be wrong.

 

[Roshanah]

"That's only if the Child was born in wedlock. Have you read the noted that accompany the British Passport Application? Ther is where I read it from. That if a CHild was born OUT OF WEDLOCK then the Father isn't legally obliged to pay maintenance to the Child."

Sorry to prove you wrong but all absent fathers have to pay support in the UK and the only grounds not to is lack of funds. Although the CSA has been riddled with problems and scandal.

"Can any leader institute meaningful change or is this truly something that is simply beyond solving? I'm starting to wonder. Battling a "mindset," as you put it so aptly, is an enormous task indeed."

I think to give up so easily would be an injustice to the thousands of women who are murdered. However i do think that changing the law will make littledifference, these practices will still continue, it'll just be behind closed doors where nobody knows the truth. Keeping this issue in the public forums is the best oprion at this time, letting the evil perpetrators know it will no longer be tolerated is a start.

Did you also`see the CSA's actions duringthe 80's? there you'd find another story.

 

[Little_star]

"That's not true, have you lived in East London, or other parts of London and the reality is that they DON'T pay"

I hate to disappoint you but Britian is a big country and alot of us don't live in London. It's a shame that's the only part of Britian you seem to be knowledgeable of is east London as it's under-developed in many parts and quite deprived. Perhaps that is why you know of cases of people from that area who haven't paid.

"Had you read the British Passport Application Form Notes you would have seen what I did because it says it there. Obviously you didn't."

Perhaps you should look at the Child Support Agency's website, that will provide you with the info you seem to want.
http://www.csa.gov.uk/newcsaweb/index.asp

"You were talking about changing the Law, well the Law of Islam is perfect and needsnot to be changed because Allah created it."

Firstly, Where did I say the Law of Islam needed to be changed? Secondly where does the Law of Islam say a woman may be brutally murdered by her family?

"If the girl is (only in this instance) so much in the need for fun and she can't wait and refuses to remain oblivious to the consequences in Shari'ah, what does she expect . I re-itterate only in this instance otherwise it would be wrong. "

I can't quite believe you have the audacity to question other people's morals when you seem to be advocating murder!?

 

[Reina]

Thanks again for your explanation. I am glad you are upfront about this issue. But I have read about how cloistered society can be when it is like this. DOn't get me wrong, I believe ppl should wait till they get married to have sexual relations. In fact, in the church we are taught to wait until marriage and to not fornicate. However, ppl do make mistakes and fall into sin. Increasingly, churches are realizing this and providing services to help single parents. But most importantly they are providing love, non-judgment, understanding, and encouragement to get back in the Word and draw closer to Him. But in order to prevent ppl from fornicating and other sins or to get out of that and other sins is that we are teaching them what the Word says and encouraging them to have a relationship w/ Christ. The church is talkign about these issues upfront, so ppl will know the Biblical stance on these types of issues. It definitely helps alot.
Now it seems that although fornication and other sins are discouraged in Muslim society, don't you think that it will only lead the young ones into other ways of doing sinful stuff. Such as different types of relations that might not break the hymen, homosexuality, getting surgery to replace the hymen, etc? I wonder what the religious ppl have to say. And what about if a girl is rape and most of the time she is blamed. She gets killed, but it wasn't her fault. Now, personally I don't think the issue of honor killings will ever get solved b/c it is too fundamental in belief and creed. But I hope some ppl will realize what's up and behave better in regards to this issue. Of course not everyone does it. But even if one was killed as a result of honor killings would be too much. But I think what would definitely help is love, especially love coming from religious authorities and the community.

What I meant was that Honour Kilings originate from the premise that If a Muslim (although at times the male has been unpunished) has conducted sexual relations outside of Marriage, in Islam this is seen a a major sin aka Haram act. In the East the act can actually shame a family and place them into perminent destitution. That's how it is. No offence meant. I'm not saying that I agree with the extremes that some of them have gone to, but one has to realise this in a place where isn't a welfare infrustructure as in the west, if they loose their good name that's it for them not just destitution but in certain past cases is has been worse. Murder OBVIOUSLY dishonourable, but what you have to understand is that in CERTAIN cases a girl has robbed her family of their good name due to her unguarded behaviour. As such certian families have suffered by ways I cannot explain.

I never said that what is customery is tollerable, I'm merely saying that the East is founded upon a different infrsutructure and as such, change cannot be expected in the same way as it is within the west. ALso, I'm not criticising the West by any means.

Finally, I must also politely point out that, If a person in the West chooses to have sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage, by legal statutes nothing comes of it. But try to imagin that you way of life, means of income and marrying in the future to a good person from a good family solely depended upon the state of one's virginity, one would view it differently.

Allah S.W.T. is most gracious, most merciful and oft forgiving indeed, but if a person breaks what is stated within the Qur'an and DOES NOT REPENT of it, only in this case Allah shan't be so to such a person (we are just referring to Muslims right now) Imagine a society based upon sex only within marriage and there was no other way to be, one was rebellious and one paid for it by the most severe terms and one's family had to take the burden. If you were in that situation how would you feel about it then.

It's not just Islam either, Judaism has the same stance, also MAry Mother of Jesus when she was with Child the jewish community treattend to stone her because they thought she had had sex before marriage. Even today Most jewish families run by the same code hence they teach their children to save themselves untilmarriage.

It's not my saying that's the way it is, I'm saying read the Qur'an and the Torah and you'll see what I mean, if one was born into a society where such a LAw exists and is upheld no matter what, one cannot expect to chang the infrustructure by complely uprooting it and replacing it with another over time.

Don't twist my words and say that I think that Honour killings are fine and that's it , I'm saying sometimes (percieved rightly or wrongly) it has for some families been necessary and for others an excuse. If you don't understnad what I'm saying after this than I can't say anmore about it. Oh and by the way the post originally was giving the background to Honour Killings and nothing more.

Oh and if you lived in Jordan like my friends do, a girl has ot be a virgin when she marries (excluding if she is a divorcee or other extenuating circumstances) because if she isn't serious matters would have arisen. I say again if you came from such a region you would understand. Also just because one person says it's deemed an atrocity doesn't necesssarily mean it is. ie homosexuality is deemed by monotheistic religious texts and religions ot be an abomination, yet modernity and seperating the powers of church and state say to hell with it and allow it but when it suits them they claim they are of the aforementioned religions.

2nd in Oriental culture for example if a personlies to their familiy ie if they said they married when they didn't and the family made preperations etc inc publicising it to guests and thenwere told te truth the Parents would deem that as dishonour (even lets say it was done for a valid reason) it would be judged the same. Although some whould say the daughter or son of the family made a mistake and that's that, in oriental culture it's seen as a LOT more than that and the Son or Daughter of the family wouldbe excommunicated.

Pardon me for being so blunt, you come from a culture where this is not the case, and are judging the East by the standards of your culture not everywhere is the same, therefore the remedy to the "problems" or issues won't be the same.

As I said before in previous post No offence meant, I wonder if anyone read the no offence bit?

 

[Savita]

How many more lives will have to be sacrificied in Jordan in order for ppl to revolt against this ridiculuous law dead against human rights?

 

[Roshanah]

Hello Roshanah, welcome to TRF. I agree Rania isn't QN, she (Rania) is her own individual person, just like QN, and they shouldn't be compared to one another. I changed this because I don't want anyone misinterpreting my post.

I know exactly what you mean, misinterpretation of posts is irritating. Good Job Sommone!

 

[papillon]

How many more lives will have to be sacrificied in Jordan in order for ppl to revolt against this ridiculuous law dead against human rights?

Exactly, Savita. Some of us don't see this as a cultural, East/West, or religious issue, but one of basic human rights.

 

[Reina]

The thing is is that you have to look at it the way the the ppl who commit the human rights violations see it. If they see it as a religious, societal/cultural, whatever way of handling things than that is the way I see it. ANd so one has to be a bit more realistic and see it through their eyes. I think campaigns to bring light to these issues will definitely help, but for the most part-no.
Maybe I am wrong about this philosophy. But real change starts at home. ANd until the very ones who are exposed to honor killings upfront call for change, there will be little change. That is no matter how much want it or try for it. I think this issue is a matter of the heart and then mind. Only God can change those.

Exactly, Savita. Some of us don't see this as a cultural, East/West, or religious issue, but one of basic human rights.

 

[Roshanah]

"That's not true, have you lived in East London, or other parts of London and the reality is that they DON'T pay"

I hate to disappoint you but Britian is a big country and alot of us don't live in London. It's a shame that's the only part of Britian you seem to be knowledgeable of is east London as it's under-developed in many parts and quite deprived. Perhaps that is why you know of cases of people from that area who haven't paid.

"Had you read the British Passport Application Form Notes you would have seen what I did because it says it there. Obviously you didn't."

Perhaps you should look at the Child Support Agency's website, that will provide you with the info you seem to want.
http://www.csa.gov.uk/newcsaweb/index.asp

"You were talking about changing the Law, well the Law of Islam is perfect and needsnot to be changed because Allah created it."

Firstly, Where did I say the Law of Islam needed to be changed? Secondly where does the Law of Islam say a woman may be brutally murdered by her family?

"If the girl is (only in this instance) so much in the need for fun and she can't wait and refuses to remain oblivious to the consequences in Shari'ah, what does she expect . I re-itterate only in this instance otherwise it would be wrong. "

I can't quite believe you have the audacity to question other people's morals when you seem to be advocating murder!?

First of all Little_star, I have knowledge of many parts of England. Britain isn't a country it is a Continent made up of England, Scotland, Wales and the Channel Islands etc. I learnt that whilst going to school, in this country. I've lived in Essex county, London and now I live in Devonshire County, my mother worked as a security and Bodyguard within the music industry, she travelled all over Britain hence my knowledge of the UK. So no my knowledge isn't restricted to East London.

I'm not disappointed I am FULLY aware that not everyone lives in London and no East London is underdeveloped. Although parts of East London are financially diprived.

The CSA may have changed it's stance recently but the Passport Application form Notes (which was what I was referring to) say another thing. Also to put a finer point on it, when I was applying for my British passport and read the notes as One ought to, I came accross the aforementioned statement and was apalled.

Referrence was made with regard to the Law being changed as we were referring to Islamic ruling upon the matter, one thought that the you were referring to Shari'ah. As you've just said that is not what you said nor inferred, appologies.

Of course NOWHERE in Shari'ah says that it is right for a Girl to be murdered by her family, I never said so.

In conclusion, I've NO audacity, so lets stop the name calling right now . I'm not questioning ANYONE'S morals, I was merely highlighting certain facts of past incidents and using those as an example when elabourating upon the matter. As you read my post, you would have also noticed that I said more than 5 TIMES in the post that I DO NOT CONDONE MURDER BUT ONE CAN UNDERSTAND IT IF ONE WERE A MEMBER OF THE FAMILY FACED WITH SUCH DIRE CIRCUMSTANCES, THEN ONE COULD UNDERSTAND THEIR ACTIONS. AT NO POINT did I say that I agreed with them. I do wish more attention was paid to that part of the post.

I also said that if one came from such a society, one would judge differently THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT ONE WHO COMES FROM SUCH A REGION WOULD AGREE WITH IT.

I'm from the East and in such a culture, HONOUR comes before many things and at times everything (Rightly or wrongly.) Hence the severe penalties. I also said that if a person from such a culture WAS AWARE of Shari'ah's stance with regards to Chastity and the severe consequences for flouting such and she STILL went against it, then she cannot expect lenience. I'm not saying it's right but if you come from such an region, one learns that there are things, which are NOT done. If one persists and does them, not saying that it's right but one knows what to expect. BY NO MEANS did I nor am I inferring or saying that Shari'ah says that it's right to kill a girl whom has flouted such a law (knowingly or not.) Obviously if she were ignorant of such knowledge, then clemency and education would be necessary.

You whilst reading my post would have also noticed that I said that I don't agree with the extremes the the family members have gone to. I also said that If a girl had been wrongfully accused, irrespective of circumstance and was brutally murdered, then the same punishment should be meted out to the poor Girls murders. Therefore they WOULDN'T get away with wrongfully accusing girls. I say again for what must me between the 6-10 TIME I DO NOT ADVOCATE MURDER. So in future don't accuse me of that which I didn't say nor infer and if you've misread a part of my post then at least have the curtacy to apollogise because you've metaphorically speaking painted me out to be a narrow minded, complicitous Eastern Woman as regards the matter. Even though you didn't say it, it was inferred. please correct the statement if, that was not what you were either saying or inferring.

 

[Roshanah]

The thing is is that you have to look at it the way the the ppl who commit the human rights violations see it. If they see it as a religious, societal/cultural, whatever way of handling things than that is the way I see it. ANd so one has to be a bit more realistic and see it through their eyes. I think campaigns to bring light to these issues will definitely help, but for the most part-no.
Maybe I am wrong about this philosophy. But real change starts at home. ANd until the very ones who are exposed to honor killings upfront call for change, there will be little change. That is no matter how much want it or try for it. I think this issue is a matter of the heart and then mind. Only God can change those.

Ameen! Well Said!

 

[papillon]

The thing is is that you have to look at it the way the the ppl who commit the human rights violations see it. If they see it as a religious, societal/cultural, whatever way of handling things than that is the way I see it. ANd so one has to be a bit more realistic and see it through their eyes. I think campaigns to bring light to these issues will definitely help, but for the most part-no.

No you don't. Nothing that is wrong in this world would ever change if everyone had to see things in the same way as the wrong-headed people. I have worked in this field for a long time, and there are definitely very established, tried and true techniques that can be applied to change hearts and minds. I think part of the crime in this is that there is little to no funding to plan and implement them for this particular issue. Far more money is spent in a single year trying to get people to change their attitudes about Coca Cola than is spent on correcting this human rights abuse.

Maybe I am wrong about this philosophy.

I think you are.

But real change starts at home. ANd until the very ones who are exposed to honor killings upfront call for change, there will be little change. That is no matter how much want it or try for it. I think this issue is a matter of the heart and then mind.

But there are people in Jordan who have been working on this and calling for change. That train left the station at least a decade ago. Activists, attorneys, journalists, members of the JRF. There has been a cry from within.

 

[Reina]

But I am mainly talking about the people, not the elite group. If the people, especially the tribes, aren't willing to change than how will this issue change? I am sorry, and I am still learning about the world. I really don't think this issue can drastically improve. I really don't see how much can change. And although the Royal family has jumped on the bandwagon against honr killings, I don't see much voice about it now.

 

[papillon]

But I am mainly talking about the people, not the elite group. If the people, especially the tribes, aren't willing to change than how will this issue change? I am sorry, and I am still learning about the world. I really don't think this issue can drastically improve. I really don't see how much can change. And although the Royal family has jumped on the bandwagon against honr killings, I don't see much voice about it now.

Sorry, this is an extremely complex issue, and I don't have time to train you, Reina. But there are established methods of changing hearts and minds, and they have to do with how information and beliefs are disseminated (usually originating with just a few thought leaders) and capitalizing on that with sound, empirically-based, systematic, well-executed campaigns. The JRF is not out front on this. From what I've seen, they only respond when the activists, attorneys, and journalists exert pressure. Lately, they haven't been exerting much pressure, though.

 

[Reina]

Here is a really interestin article about this issue and how it relates to Jordan. From the Middle Eastern Quarterly

"Honor" Murders – Why the Perps Get off Easy
by Yotam Feldner

http://www.meforum.org/article/50

 

[Reina]

I guess it will have to start with one step at a time. YEs this is a very complex issue. Thank God for those who are taking the time to deal with it.

Sorry, this is an extremely complex issue, and I don't have time to train you, Reina. But there are established methods of changing hearts and minds, and they have to do with how information and beliefs are disseminated (usually originating with just a few thought leaders) and capitalizing on that with sound, empirically-based, systematic, well-executed campaigns. The JRF is not out front on this. From what I've seen, they only respond when the activists, attorneys, and journalists exert pressure. Lately, they haven't been exerting much pressure, though.

 

[madonna23]

why are honor killings so common in jordan?? i mean, what is it about the society that increases the number as compared to other Islamic countries? it can't be the tribal society because that sort of society is common accross the middle east and north africa. is it just because the media reports it more?? i don't think even that is true...

can someone tell me why...maybe there is not even a reason for this but maybe a jordanian knows or someone can offer a theory.

 

[Reina]

I thought it was a problem in other countries too. DOn't think that it is not true. EVen Prince Ghazi bin Mohammed wrote about the tribes and honor killings in his book, The Tribes of Jordan, so there is some credible evidence.

 

[papillon]

why are honor killings so common in jordan?? i mean, what is it about the society that increases the number as compared to other Islamic countries?

According to UN estimates, globally there are approximately 5000 "honor" killings per annum. Accurate statistics are difficult to come by, however, since many of them are disguised as suicides or unreported. Somewhere between 800 and 900 of them occur in Pakistan, so it has the highest number. Jordan, however, has one of the highest per capita rates at about 20 to 25 per annum on a population base of significantly less than six million.

Pakistan actually has stricter legislation in place for dealing with these crimes now, though, so maybe we will see a deterrent effect from that. Jordan, however, still has three penal code articles on the books--Articles 97, 98 (the one most often used), and 340--that offer great leniency, and these are what permit the perpetrators to get off so easily.

 

[Sean.~]

Now it seems that although fornication and other sins are discouraged in Muslim society, don't you think that it will only lead the young ones into other ways of doing sinful stuff. Such as different types of relations that might not break the hymen, homosexuality, getting surgery to replace the hymen, etc? I wonder what the religious ppl have to say.

Papillion has articulated herself on this honour killings subject matter masterfully several times now, and I (as you may deduce from earlier posts) am in complete agreement with her.

I just wanted to add, however, that the "sins" you mention are not considered as such by many. Morality is subjective, and not everyone shares your particular brand.

I know many gay posters here (and I'm sure there are many) would find your position offensive. Bottom line here is that morality is subjective & there is no universal moral code.

 

[papillon]

Papillion has articulated herself on this honour killings subject matter masterfully several times now, and I (as you may deduce from earlier posts) am in complete agreement with her.

I just wanted to add, however, that the "sins" you mention are not considered as such by man. Morality is subjective, and not everyone shares your particular brand.

I know many gay posters here (and I'm sure there are many) would find your position offensive. Bottom line here is that morality is subjective & there is no universal moral code.

Sean, thank you!!! I have missed your voice on the JRF threads.

And I concur with your comments about morality. Sometimes the tone on this forum is awfully high handed.