Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Absolutely! They speak the language, adopted the faith and either fought with or trained (until King Constantine's time) in the Greek Armed forces. Besides they also settled their tax liabilities to the Greek State.
That is more than some other citizens of the country can claim.

I concur with the above!
One thing I cannot understand, though, is why King Constantine doesn't comply with the name-adoption issue and have it all behind him. They are as Greek as anybody else. Besides, according to Isocrates (not Socrates but Isocrates) whoever has received Greek education and shares the Greek culture is Greek - period!

In fact, I believe strenuously that it is the strong magnetism that the Greek culture and locale exert upon him that make King Constantine feel so home-sick [like every Greek who lives abroad, no matter how rich or how famous and successful he/she may be].

He is free, anyway, to live in Greece permanently irrespective of the surname adoption. King Constantine was the King of the Hellenes for ten years, and still is and shall always be King. The latter thing cannot change whether he adopts a surname like Glucksburg or not. It is felt, therefore, that now that animosities have settled, it is high time that he took the initiative and settled the issue himself.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Glucksburg is not surname, it is the name of a German territory, in this territory was born a title of nobility, this title of nobility served to identify the descendants of the first Prince of Glucksburg .The Greek politicians use this name as Family surname but it is not surname. The surname is the surname that had the first Prince of Glucksburg, this is the problem, nobody know what surname had this Prince before of title nobility((Gluckssurg)

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Princess Olga, the daughter of Prince Michael of Greece.
see:
Princess Olga (pre-marriage)
Prince Aimone and Princess Olga of Savoy-Aosta (post-marriage)

I am not well versed in the topic.
My understanding though is that the only case in the history of (the second) Greek Monarchy (1863 - 1974) of a commoner getting elevated to princely status was that of Madame Aspasia Manos who, by royal decree by King Constantine I (who following the death of his son King Alexander, re-ascended to the Throne) was created HRH The Princess Alexandra of Greece and, automatically, the newborn girl, issue of the marriage, became HRH The Princess Alexandra of Greece (the later Queen of Yugoslavia).

In line with the above, I understand that, although Prince Michael was married in or around 1965 at the Royal Palace and in the presence of the Royal Family, his mariage did not carry "constitutional validity". In result, he resigned his rights in the Line of Succession and his bride was and remains, Madame Marina Karellas - nothing less and nothing more than that. In this setting how can any issue of this marriage be styled as prince/princess. Can someone throw some light here?

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

There is no disagreement on what you are saying, but any royal family, in the end and traditionally, goes by what the name of the royal house is. Am I wrong here? For example the Norwegian royal family use Glucksburg, the Spanish royal family use Borbon y Borbon and the British ones, Windsor.
Although it is none of my business, or anybody else's for that matter, to tell King Constantine which name to adopt, should he adopt one (and this would NOT change his status - he is King and shall always be King), the whole non-issue that was unfortunately elevated to an issue by both sides, would be eliminated and everybody would live happily therefater.

 

[mariazil]

Good morning and Happy Holidays to everyone! It is true that Glucksbourg is the name of a German territory but it is also true that the surname Borbon y Borbon is King Juan Carlos΄surname only. The next generation, that is Prince Felipe and Infantas, are Borbon y Grecia, which means that their mother΄s surname is Grecia(of Greece).

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

The Norwegian royal family members use Glucksburg as their surname. This confirms that this specific princely house's small city-origin has been, and is being, used in lieu of surname - which is in the tradition of many Germanic city-states, county-states etc etc.

Queen Sofia was born a princess of Greece. Of Greece (y Grecia, in her case) was not and is not a surname, it denotes country of provenance. Besides, her father, grandfather and great-gragdfather were not kings of Greece, but kings of the Hellenes, denoting the people they ruled, in distinction from the land.

 

[mariazil]

You are right of course, they were kings of the Hellenes, and Glucksburg could be used as a surname. I just think they do not want a German surname, that΄s all. It bothers them not to have a Greek surname, that is why they cling to of Greece...
Perhaps they should do what the British moharch did when he changed the Royal Family΄s German surname to Windsor...

 

[Odette]

It is true that Prince Michael resigned his rights to the succesion on the Greek throne but he retained his title ( his birthright) and as such his two daughters carry the titles of Princesses of Greece. His marriage was approved by the King but because it was unequal it was morganatic.
I can see nowhere that Mme Marina Karella was elevated to a Princess although all social magazines refer to her as Princess Marina of Greece.

BTW I just finished the book of Alexandros & Aspasia and I agree about the elevation of Mme Aspasia Manos to HRH after the birth of her little daughter. I tend to believe the reason she became HRH was to extend the title to the King's grandaughter and provide Mme Manos with the standing she earned as a widow of K Alexandros.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

It is true that Prince Michael resigned his rights to the succesion on the Greek throne but he retained his title ( his birthright) and as such his two daughters carry the titles of Princesses of Greece. His marriage was approved by the King but because it was unequal it was morganatic.
I can see nowhere that Mme Marina Karella was elevated to a Princess although all social magazines refer to her as Princess Marina of Greece.

Indeed, such marriages are (called) morganatic. I did not use the term, on purpose however, because in Greece (according to the then Constitutions), children and grandchildren of Kings, except for the Heir, had no constitutional/legal standing or constitutional role to play, and were not recipients of Civil List etc etc. Thus, their existence was limited arbitrarily to functions of style, reverence etc, but not of substance.

On the other hand, considering that the Royal World is an international community with its own rules, it is important to remember that old-standing royal or princely houses have historically respected, at a minimum, the Gotha protocol, which deals extensively with such matters and, inter alia, addresses (rightly or wrongly) differently the offspring of morganatic marriages unless otherwise handled by Acts or Decrees by a Royal or princely House Head (as in the case of Mme Manos, princess Alexandra and many others in history).

Last but not least, and from an entirely technical/scientific/historical perspective, one may argue that either Mme XYZ who married prince ABC became a princess in which case the issue are also princes/ses or that she remains a commoner/noblewoman in which case the offspring is at best a noble personage (usually a count/ess but not a prince/ss).

 

[Kai29]

Will the wife of Prince Nicolaos be a Royal Highness?!

 

[Warren]

She will take her husband's style and title and so will be HRH Princess Nikolaos of Greece.

It is highly unlikely that she will be created a Princess in her own right although some media will probably refer to her after marriage as "Princess Tatiana" which she technically won't be. In the same manner, Crown Prince Pavlos's wife is rightfully titled "Crown Princess Pavlos" and not "Princess Marie Chantal".

 

[BELTRANEJA]

If "Greece" can not be surname because it is a place, Glucksburg can not be surname in Greece because it is other place, it is in Germany, and formerly here had a title of nobility , it was Prince Glucksburg. In Norway is posible that the places can be surname, and in other States...But if in Greece can not be surname places, Glucksburg can not be it , the surname will be surname that had the first Prince of Glucksburg, but nobody know who was him?...

NOW, the surname of Constantine in Greece is "Greece"

In Greece, I think that the places can be surname if the person is not nationality of Greece.Constantine is nacionality of Denmark, in Greece his surname is "Greece" ( in danish or english).

If he would have the greek nacionality, he could not use "Greece" and "Glucksburg" as surname, becuase in Greece it is not surname, it are places..

 

[Stefan]

She will take her husband's style and title and so will be HRH Princess Nikolaos of Greece.

It is highly unlikely that she will be created a Princess in her own right although some media will probably refer to her after marriage as "Princess Tatiana" which she technically won't be. In the same manner, Crown Prince Pavlos's wife is rightfully titled "Crown Princess Pavlos" and not "Princess Marie Chantal".

But before woman who married into the greek Royal Family where styled by their own name like Princess Alice of Greece, née Princess of Battenberg or Princess Marie of Greece, née Princess Bonaparte. And they where never created Princesses in their own right.

 

[Warren]

But if in Greece can not be surname places, Glucksburg can not be it , the surname will be surname that had the first Prince of Glucksburg, but nobody know who was him?...

Friedrich Wilhelm (1785-1831), born Hereditary Prince of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck became the first Duke of Glucksburg in 1825 and took the title of Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg.
He was of the House of Oldenburg. Since there was no official surname, Oldenburg comes closest.

But before woman who married into the greek Royal Family where styled by their own name like Princess Alice of Greece, née Princess of Battenberg or Princess Marie of Greece, née Princess Bonaparte. And they where never created Princesses in their own right.

Not strictly comparable as both Princess Alice and Princess Marie were Princesses in their own right before their marriages.
By contrast, Tatiana will acquire the title of Princess [Nikolaos] through her marriage.

 

[mariazil]

Within Greece, they were officially called Princess Andrew, Princess George and so on, at least that is how they are mentioned in History books, biographies and so on. Mind you, very few commoners had married into the Greek royal family back then, so almost every Princess had come from a royal or noble background but was of course using her husband's name at least within Greece.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Your statements are correct.

By the way, in addition to Mme Aspasia Manos, there is one more case of a female* commoner marrying into the Greek Royal. American millionaire Mrs. Leeds married prince Christopher of Greece, son of King George I and father (through his second marriage to Francoise d' Orleans) of prince Micahel of Greece. Although, initially, prince Christopher resigned his rights to the throne, it was his brother, King Constantine I, who reinstated him and Mrs. Leeds was created HRH Princess Anastasia of Greece. However, she died soon and there was no issue.

Thus, the only case, of a female commoner marrying into the GRF that was elevated to princess and had issue, was that of Mme Manos. It should be remembered though that Mme Manos was married to a King and it would have been very embarrassing for the issue, to remain a commoner (besides the issue of creating a noble woman would be out of question since modern Greece never had and never recognized nobility).

*Insofar as male commoners marrying into the GRF we have the childless marriage of Admiral Ioannides to princess Marie.


On another note, it was stated above that the wife of the prince Paul (Pavlos) is not a princess in her own right and this is correct.
More precisely, her title is HRH The Princess Diadoch (Diadoch = Heir) and not Crown Princess Pavlos.

In a similar case, that is, when George II was king and Prince Paul the diadoch, he and his wife, Frederika of Hanover, were referred to, in the Press, history books, Court Circulars etc as His Royal Higness The Diadoch, Her Royal Highness The Princess Diadoch.

Practically, of course, since the monarchy is now defunct, she can be called anything her father-in-law has designated.

 

[mariazil]

You summed it up beautifully, that was exactly my point.
As to Marie-Chantal, there must be a press release from the time she married prince Paul, precising her title if any, mustn t there?

I should also add that another male commoner married into the Royal Family, besides Admiral Ioannides, was Richard Brandram who was married to princess Catherine.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I should also add that another male commoner married into the Royal Family, besides Admiral Ioannides, was Richard Brandram who was married to princess Catherine.

Yes, yes, of course!!! I beg your pardon for my error.

 

[cupito]

I fo not think she is a "royal highness" or can even be considered a crown princess since there no Greek crown since before her birth. The Greeks have sent 2 royal houses packing (Bavarian house of Wettelsbach was first)

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I think the situation of Prince Michael is very similar to the Princess Catherine, she had to give up her title of Princess of Greece when she married Richard Brandram,she was daughter of kings and Miguel resigned in 1965, if the daughters of Princes Michael are Princess of Greece, the son and grandchildren of Princess Katherina are princes of Greece
and this is not so,

 

[mariazil]

The Princess' son and grandchildren could never be princes of Greece because according to the Greek law children bear their father΄s surname and title and not their mother΄s. Princesses of Greece could never transmit their title to their children even within an "equal" marriage: Princess Irene became the Duchess of Aosta and therefore her son is an Italian prince, Princess Marina became the Duchess of Kent and her offspring are princes of Great Britain and so on. That is why Paul Brandram only bears his father΄s surname.

Now for prince Michael, he only renounced to his rights to the throne of Greece when he got married, (at the time he was third in line after princesses Alexia and Irene), he never lost his style as HRH prince Michael of Greece and Denmark so his daughters have the style of H.H.R.R.H.H., princesses Olga and Alexandra of Greece and Denmark, but of course they have no right to the succession to the(hypothetical) throne. I must add here, that both the princesses are extremely discreet when visiting Greece, which happens very often, and when princess Olga was married last year in Patmos, Greece, the Greek media barely mentioned the event. As to prince Michael's wife, I know she uses her own name professionally, on royal occasions she is Marina Karella, princess Michael of Greece and Denmark.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I think the situation of Prince Michael is very similar to the Princess Catherine, she had to give up her title of Princess of Greece when she married Richard Brandram,she was daughter of kings ......

Insofar as princess Katherine was concerned, she was always referred to as princess Katherine by the Greek Royal Family, that is, both before and after her marriage. However, she had to give up her title as princess of Greece, only in relation to the United Kingdom and in order to become a British citizen. In fact, by an act of King George VI, I believe, and after she paid a fee (she recalled later jokingly), she was reduced to the standing of a Duke's daughter as Lady Brandram in a fashion similar to the case of the Battenberg princes (who were reduced to noblemen) when they assumed British nationality.

Now for prince Michael, he only renounced to his rights to the throne of Greece when he got married, (at the time he was third in line after princesses Alexia and Irene)

This is true. More precisely, at the time, he was 4th in line of succession after princess Alexia, princess Irene and prince Peter, son of prince George of Greece and Marie Bonaparte (Napoleon) although questions had been raised in 1964-5 about prince Peter's rights since he had been married to a commoner.

.... he never lost his style as HRH prince Michael of Greece and Denmark so

This is true

.... his daughters have the style of H.H.R.R.H.H., princesses Olga and Alexandra of Greece and Denmark, but of course they have no right to the succession to the (hypothetical) throne.

This is uncertain since their father's marriage was morganatic and his spouse was never elevated to princess by royal decree [as was the case of Aspasia Manos and Mrs. Leeds] or letters patent etc. As you point out, however, at this juncture all the above are irrelevant.

I must add here, that both the princesses are extremely discreet when visiting Greece.

The daughters of prince Michael are virtually unknown in Greece. To the same extent, for instance, the Greek people have no clue that King Juan Carlos first cousin's daughter, a full Borbon princess, is married to Mr. Markos Nomikos and lives permanently in Greece.

As to prince Michael's wife, I know she uses her own name professionally, on royal occasions she is Marina Karella, princess Michael of Greece and Denmark.

At the time of prince Michael's wedding, in Athens, it was announced through the Court's Circular that his spouse would be known (just) as Marina Karella. In Greece, she has always been known and referred to as Marina Karella, both professionally and socially.

 

[mariazil]

Thanks for clearing things out. I wasn΄t that sure myself about Marina Karella and their daughters were so often referred to as "princesses of Greece and Denmark" by the press(French and Spanish mostly) that I thought this was right. And of course you were right about prince Petros, I had completely forgotten about him...

 

[stef]

I agree with Vlaha Karatsokaros ,Prince Peter was in line of succession before the Prince Michael.Marie Karella, had no title of Princess.

 

[snowflower]

I tend to believe that King Konstantine allowed Prnce Michael's daughter to be styled as Princes Olga and Princess Alexandra of Greece more in a honorific way since their father never seized to be an HRH. Besides since they were girls, they could not pass any title to their offspring, so it wouldn't hurt anyone.

If prince Michael had a son how do you think he and his children would be styled?

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I tend to believe that King Konstantine allowed Prnce Michael's daughter to be styled as Princes Olga and Princess Alexandra of Greece more in a honorific way since their father never seized to be an HRH.

Even when Greece was a monarchy, all these titles were honorific anyway, meaning that there was no consitutional backing except for the King Queen and Diadoch (heir to the throne). However, traditionally, children and grandchildren (through the male line) of Greek kings were styled as HRH and addressed as princes/ses.
To the best of my knowledge, there have been four morganatic marriages of Greek princes,
1. King Alexnader's to Aspasia Manos [who, after her husband's death was elevated, by royal decree, to HRH Princess Aspasia and this was only done in order to prevent the late king's newly-born daughter from becoming a commoner which would be an embarrassment]
2. Prince Christopher's to Mme Leeds, who was elevated to HRH Princess Anastasia, but died soon without issue.
3. Prince Peter's to Mme Irina Ovtchinnikova [whose fate remained unknown and she never showed up in Greece] without issue.
4. Prince Michael's to Mme Marina Karella.

Thus, the only precedent of a moragantic marriage with issue was that of King Alexander to Mme Manos and in that case the offspring became a full princess only after King Constantine (after he reascended to the throne) elevated her mother, Mme Manos - and only then Alexandra became automatically HRH Princess Alexandra of Greece and Denmark. And I believe this is a widely implemented rule within European royalty.
To conclude, as long as their mother remains a commoner, the above ladies cannot be princesses. If, however, King Constantine elevated Mme Karella to princess, then, the young ladies could perhaps be princesses. And I say, perhaps, because prince Michael is merely a king's grandson.

 

[snowflower]

About the family's surname

Ok, I understand that the royals of the Gluckburg family tree have no last name . But since a last name is neccesary for all greek citizens why can't King Konstantine use the whole house name for a surnmane .And if not for him then for his descendants. I mean would for example a name like "Pavlos von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg " be historically accurate and acceptable by greek law? ( note that I didn't use just Glucksburg but the whole title of te dynasty) I don't think the Greek royal have a reason to complain to such a surname.But that's of course my opinion

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Actually, the issue should have never reached such extremes. Unfortunately, the then government got somewhat vindictive and King Constantine reacted somewhat ineffectively and in the wrong direction. Specifically, King Constantine declared that he had no surname, which is an irrelevant issue, because whether one has a surname or not, she/he must choose and adopt one in order to become a citizen. The government, then, interpreted the statement as meaning that King Constantine would not adopt or was unwilling to adopt a surname.

In the interim, the Supreme Administrative Court (Symvoulio Epikrateias) decreed that of Greece was a legitimate identifier by elaborating on the issue and stating, (in paraphrase), "any phrase, sentence, words that can identify a person can stand as surname and are a surname".

The King, it is felt, did not have to indulge on the issue of whether his family had or did not have a surname. This I believe "ticked off" the government, for if he didn't have one, he could adopt any surname of his choice [not necessarily Glucksburg or the serial names accorded to the House he descends from, as you suggest].
In other words, if he returned and said, "I choose of Greece as my surname" and with the understanding that he, his family and the Greek State would recognize it as a surname and not as title of provenance, his request could not be rejected.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I remember that one of the Greek Government's arguments to the claim of Constantine was "the names of places can not be surname" Greece is a "place", but Glucksburg is other place, is in Germany. If we apply the above reasoning, Greece is not surname and Glubsburg no (in Greece)

 

[COUNTESS]

It is all silly, becuase Constantine is king of nothing and he can call himself anything he wants. If he wants to go to Greece and the legitimate government there says, what is your last name, pick one. It could be Hanover, too. Nice name. Constantine Hanover. Would look good on a passport.