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Using the completely inaccurate reasoning about the titles for Harry's children really weakens your argument I am afraid. Please don't give any credence to such utter nonsense.
The last Spanish Queen Regent was Maria Christina of Austria who served as Queen Regent from 1885-1902On October 31, 2023, Queen Letizia will be stripped of her only constitutional role under the Spanish constitution, which is to serve as regent for her daughter if Leonor ascends the throne before turning 18, or to serve as regent for her husband if he is unable to fulfill his duties as King and that incapacity is recognized by the Parliament . The latter role in particular will be assumed by Leonor when she turns 18.
Using the completely inaccurate reasoning about the titles for Harry's children really weakens your argument I am afraid. Please don't give any credence to such utter nonsense.
Anyone can accuse the king of anything, if they so want. But for the allegation to have any credibility, it must be backed up. In this case, these were just malicious lies on the part of Meghan in the Oprah interview of 2021, designed to do damage to the royal family and to portray herself as the victim in an attempt to curry favour with the American public.I am afraid it is a fact that royal watchers have indeed accused King Charles III of racism on the basis of his reported (now dropped, of course) plans to slim down royal titles. I believe you yourself have commented on those false accusations, so I am surprised you refer to my reference to their being made as "utter nonsense".
Anyone can accuse the king of anything, if they so want. But for the allegation to have any credibility, it must be backed up.
Where do you draw the line, however, to decide who is royal or not? It cannot go on in perpetuity for successive generations of descendants of a sovereign . Drawing the line at children of a monarch and children of the heir seems reasonable to me. There is no need for grandchildren of the monarch in collateral lines to be princes or princesses.
I am against children of Royal women being a nothing as a rule if they didn't marry a titled Royal or Aristocrat.
In perpetuity is very different and not in the British system. In the UK the male line HRH stops at grandchildren and them 1 generation of Lords and ladies and from there follows title lines in the British way not like in Europe where it's equal across all grandchildren but that's another thread.Where do you draw the line, however, to decide who is royal or not? It cannot go on in perpetuity for successive generations of descendants of a sovereign . Drawing the line at children of a monarch and children of the heir seems reasonable to me. There is no need for grandchildren of the monarch in collateral lines to be princes or princesses.
Which European monarchies are you thinking of? Given that you refer that 'most' monarchies have implemented these steps - while I can think of only two where this somewhat applies. Are there other examples?![]()
The Consort Conundrum - what would you call the King's husband or the Queen's wife? - Royal Central
The debate about why Queen Camilla is regularly called The Queen Consort rather than just The Queen opens up another discussion. For in the past decade, the majority of European nations that have monarchies have...royalcentral.co.uk
This article sums up my feelings on this matter. The husband of a king or queen should be king consort and the wife of a king or queen should be queen consort. Anyone married to any other royal or noble should get to use their spouse’s title regardless of the genders of themselves and their spouse. Most European monarchies have taken steps to introduce gender equality into the family (allowing women to inherit the throne, introducing absolute primogeniture, allowing men who marry non-heir princesses to use their wives’ titles, and allowing titles to pass through the female line) and this would complete it. Spain is the exception because they’ve always allowed women to inherit peerages and people to use their spouses’ titles regardless of the genders of the couple (I know of one case of a woman becoming a duchess via marriage to a duchess) but Juan Carlos decided in 1987 that the husband of a future queen regnant (such as Leonor) would only be prince consort despite being Prince of Asturias as long as he was married to the Princess of Asturias. Why he would do so makes no sense to me.
I didn’t mean that every single European monarchy has implemented all of these changes. Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, and the UK have just adopted absolute primogeniture. However a couple examples you’re forgetting are that the husband of Queen Margrethe’s sister Princess Benedikte declined being made a prince of Denmark and the husband of Princess Astrid of Belgium was eventually made a prince of Belgium. Their five children are also princes and princesses of Belgium. The ex-husbands of Felipe’s sisters and husbands of Juan Carlos’ weren’t made infantes because Juan Carlos decided that you can no longer become an infante/infanta by marriage. Had Felipe and Juan Carlos had brothers who married women their wives would also be non-royal duchesses. Before that the spouses of infantes/infantas were made infantes/infantas. He also decided that the children of infantes/infantas will no longer be infantes/infantas; you can only be an infante/infanta if you’re a non-heir child of the monarch or child of the heir. None of the changes he implemented were gender-specific besides changing the title of the consort of the queen. It is quite ironic that Spain is the most progressive with titles but still practices male-preference primogeniture. One change I forgot to mention is that the Swedish monarchy now makes princesses duchesses in their own right at birth; before that was reserved for princes.Welcome!
Which European monarchies are you thinking of? Given that you refer that 'most' monarchies have implemented these steps - while I can think of only two where this somewhat applies. Are there other examples?
Allowing men who marry non-heir princesses to use their wives' titles:
- Spain: ducal title is shared but no title of 'infante' for spouses of infantas
- Sweden: ducal title offered to Madeleine's future husbands but no marriage (Jonas) or declined (Chris).
I am not aware of any other European monarchies that practice this custom. For most monarchies this applies only to the spouse of the female heir.
Allowing titles to pass through the female line (other than for (future) female monarchs):
- in Spain this indeed applies to nobility titles (like the UK, these are peerages that only pass on two one person - instead of titles that are shared by all family members) but so far it does not apply to the royal house: the children of infantas are no infantes or infantas themselves, while the children of an infante (or the prince of Asturias) are.
- in Sweden Madeleine's children are the first to receive titles via their mother (not counting Victoria as future queen).
Nonetheless, unlike most European monarchies, Spain still practices male-preference cognatic primogeniture.
The husbands of all recent Queen Regnants have been Prince Consorts ,this is not unique to Spain alone![]()
The Consort Conundrum - what would you call the King's husband or the Queen's wife? - Royal Central
The debate about why Queen Camilla is regularly called The Queen Consort rather than just The Queen opens up another discussion. For in the past decade, the majority of European nations that have monarchies have...royalcentral.co.uk
This article sums up my feelings on this matter. The husband of a king or queen should be king consort and the wife of a king or queen should be queen consort. Anyone married to any other royal or noble should get to use their spouse’s title regardless of the genders of themselves and their spouse. Most European monarchies have taken steps to introduce gender equality into the family (allowing women to inherit the throne, introducing absolute primogeniture, allowing men who marry non-heir princesses to use their wives’ titles, and allowing titles to pass through the female line) and this would complete it. Spain is the exception because they’ve always allowed women to inherit peerages and people to use their spouses’ titles regardless of the genders of the couple (I know of one case of a woman becoming a duchess via marriage to a duchess) but Juan Carlos decided in 1987 that the husband of a future queen regnant (such as Leonor) would only be prince consort despite being Prince of Asturias as long as he was married to the Princess of Asturias. Why he would do so makes no sense to me.
Not anymore, but in the past the Title Infante was given to spouses of Infanta's who married equally, like the husbands of the sisters of King Alfonso XIII.Welcome!
Which European monarchies are you thinking of? Given that you refer that 'most' monarchies have implemented these steps - while I can think of only two where this somewhat applies. Are there other examples?
Allowing men who marry non-heir princesses to use their wives' titles:
- Spain: ducal title is shared but no title of 'infante' for spouses of infantas
Yes indeed Prince Ferdinand of Bavaria was made an Infante of Spain in 1906 and retained that title after his second marriage.Not anymore, but in the past the Title Infante was given to spouses of Infanta's who married equally, like the husbands of the sisters of King Alfonso XIII.
Thanks, so your claim was that most of the European monarchies adopted one or more of those changes. With that I fully agree.I didn’t mean that every single European monarchy has implemented all of these changes. Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, and the UK have just adopted absolute primogeniture. However a couple examples you’re forgetting are that the husband of Queen Margrethe’s sister Princess Benedikte declined being made a prince of Denmark and the husband of Princess Astrid of Belgium was eventually made a prince of Belgium. Their five children are also princes and princesses of Belgium. The ex-husbands of Felipe’s sisters and husbands of Juan Carlos’ weren’t made infantes because Juan Carlos decided that you can no longer become an infante/infanta by marriage. Had Felipe and Juan Carlos had brothers who married women their wives would also be non-royal duchesses. Before that the spouses of infantes/infantas were made infantes/infantas. He also decided that the children of infantes/infantas will no longer be infantes/infantas; you can only be an infante/infanta if you’re a non-heir child of the monarch or child of the heir. None of the changes he implemented were gender-specific besides changing the title of the consort of the queen. It is quite ironic that Spain is the most progressive with titles but still practices male-preference primogeniture. One change I forgot to mention is that the Swedish monarchy now makes princesses duchesses in their own right at birth; before that was reserved for princes.
The husbands of Queen Isabella II of Spain and Queen Maria II of Portugal were both king consorts. Victoria wanted Albert to be king consort but the government didn’t allow it because he was a foreigner so she made him prince consort. If we’re going to talk about tradition most European monarchies have already broken the traditions of not allowing women to inherit the throne, male-preference primogeniture, husbands of non-heir princesses not receiving their wives’ titles, and titles not being able to pass through the female line. All traditions were broken for the sake of gender equality. A queen’s husband being prince consort despite a king’s wife being queen consort may be a tradition (a recent one at that) but it’s necessary to look into why that unequal tradition exists. It exists because king is perceived as a higher rank than queen which is rooted in misogyny. It’s basically saying that no reigning queen will be as powerful as a reigning king. I see no reason why the ranks of king and queen shouldn’t be seen as equal; if a queen regnant is equal to a king regnant then a king consort should be equal to a queen consort. What do you think should be done in the case of gay monarchs?The husbands of all recent Queen Regnants have been Prince Consorts ,this is not unique to Spain alone
Its a title that started with Prince Albert in the United Kingdom following his marriage to Queen Victoria.
Queen Anne's husband also was never made king consort either.
Queen Elizabeth II's husband was also was never made king consort either and styled HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and later Prince Philip ,The Duke of Edinburgh.
Other monarchies have since followed that British Tradition.
The husbands of the 3 consecutive Dutch Queen Regnants were all styled Dutch Prince Consorts
The late husband of Margrethe II of Denmark too was styled Prince Consort of Denmark.
I have no issue with this European Royal tradition and think it works perfectly fine.
There are some monarchies where the Monarchs wife is style Princess and not Queen or the Monarch can have multiple wives!
Not anymore, but in the past the Title Infante was given to spouses of Infanta's who married equally, like the husbands of the sisters of King Alfonso XIII.
The wives of his sons weren’t made infantas either.Yes indeed Prince Ferdinand of Bavaria was made an Infante of Spain in 1906 and retained that title after his second marriage.
Prince Carlos of Bourbon-Two Sicilies was made an Infante in 1901.
Neither of the husbands of Alfonso XIII 2 daughters were made Infantes.
But none of them married equal according to the Pragamtic Decree. Only the Count of Barcelona.The wives of his sons weren’t made infantas either.
Amedeo and Maria Laura’s children are in the line of succession to the Belgian throne despite not being princes/princesses of Belgium so I don’t know if Astrid’s husband and kids being made princes/princesses of Belgium was to ensure Astrid and her descendants being in the line of succession. I believe there’s a decree that states that only the grandchildren of the monarch will be princes/princesses of Belgium so like Astrid’s grandkids Laurent’s grandkids also won’t be princes/princesses of Belgium. However Eléonore’s spouse and kids will be princes/princesses of Belgium. Yes Maria Laura’s husband should have been made a prince of Belgium. What difference will it make in the Netherlands if more people have noble titles? Is there a cost associated with it?Thanks, so your claim was that most of the European monarchies adopted one or more of those changes. With that I fully agree.
Good point about Belgium. Although at the time it seemed more of a measure to ensure that Astrid (or Amedeo) would end up on the throne instead of Laurent if Philippe would remain unmarried. It will be interesting to see what will truly happen in the next generation: will Gabriel and Emmanuel's spouses be treated exactly the same as Eleonore's - and what about their children? So far, among the children-in-law of Astrid a clear difference can be observed: Elisabetta is called a princess, while William is not called a prince.
I guess it is a bit more easy for countries that work with peerages that are inherited by only one person (the eldest (son or child)), such as Spain, to become gender-neutral in its application. One of the main reasons given in for example the Netherlands not to go that route is that it would largely increase the number of nobles if both men and women could pass on their titles - and that is not considered desirable.
His wife had the rank and precedence of an infanta at birth but not the title. She still wasn’t made an infanta by marriage though, I wonder why.But none of them married equal according to the Pragamtic Decree. Only the Count of Barcelona.
Let's again stress that most of the European monarchies have broken a few of the mentioned traditions. Only Sweden seems to have made it completely gender-neutral in theory but in day-to-day practice Daniel is still treated differently at court than Sofia would have been had she been the crown princess and CP the crown prince; and of course, Chris refused a title.The husbands of Queen Isabella II of Spain and Queen Maria II of Portugal were both king consorts. Victoria wanted Albert to be king consort but the government didn’t allow it because he was a foreigner so she made him prince consort. If we’re going to talk about tradition most European monarchies have already broken the traditions of not allowing women to inherit the throne, male-preference primogeniture, husbands of non-heir princesses not receiving their wives’ titles, and titles not being able to pass through the female line. All traditions were broken for the sake of gender equality. A queen’s husband being prince consort despite a king’s wife being queen consort may be a tradition (a recent one at that) but it’s necessary to look into why that unequal tradition exists. It exists because king is perceived as a higher rank than queen which is rooted in misogyny. It’s basically saying that no reigning queen will be as powerful as a reigning king. I see no reason why the ranks of king and queen shouldn’t be seen as equal; if a queen regnant is equal to a king regnant then a king consort should be equal to a queen consort. What do you think should be done in the case of gay monarchs?
A lot has changed over het last 35 years. It was no coincidence that in 1991 both absolute primogeniture was introduced in Belgium and Astrid's children were made princes and princesses of Belgium - according to that law ALL descendants would be. So, at the time they made that connection. Only in 2015 the strict link between being in the line of succession and being a prince or princess of Belgium was broken when the 1991 law was replaced by a new one limiting the title to children and grandchildren of the monarch and heir.Amedeo and Maria Laura’s children are in the line of succession to the Belgian throne despite not being princes/princesses of Belgium so I don’t know if Astrid’s husband and kids being made princes/princesses of Belgium was to ensure Astrid and her descendants being in the line of succession. I believe there’s a decree that states that only the grandchildren of the monarch will be princes/princesses of Belgium so like Astrid’s grandkids Laurent’s grandkids also won’t be princes/princesses of Belgium. However Eléonore’s spouse and kids will be princes/princesses of Belgium. Yes Maria Laura’s husband should have been made a prince of Belgium.
It was debated in parliament. Nobility is/was considered an outdated practice suggesting that some are 'more' than others that they'd rather have slowly die out than increase their numbers.What difference will it make in the Netherlands if more people have noble titles? Is there a cost associated with it?
You’re right about Sweden, the only things they haven’t applied gender equality to are the titles of the spouse of the heir and the spouse of the monarch. It’s quite unfair that Daniel has the same title he would if his wife wasn’t the heir (AKA the title Madeleine’s husband declined, a prince of Sweden and duke consort of his wife’s duchy) but Sofia would be crown princess of Sweden if Carl Philip was still the heir. Hopefully when Victoria is queen he’ll at least be HRH The Prince Consort of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland. I’m guessing that the monarchies that haven’t gone further in terms of gender equality eventually will; again you’re forgetting that Benedikte’s husband declined being made a prince of Denmark. There was a bill to allow women to inherit peerages and men to use their wives’ noble titles in the UK but it didn’t pass. Charles has said he’ll create Charlotte a duchess in her own right so I’m sure there’ll be debate about what titles her spouse and kids should have. There are going to be several reigning queens in the near future who I’m sure will make monarchies (further) consider the gender equality issue.Let's again stress that most of the European monarchies have broken a few of the mentioned traditions. Only Sweden seems to have made it completely gender-neutral in theory but in day-to-day practice Daniel is still treated differently at court than Sofia would have been had she been the crown princess and CP the crown prince; and of course, Chris refused a title.
The following traditions are still in place in the following European monarchies:
Not allowing women to inherit the throne: Liechtenstein
Male-preference primogeniture: Monaco, Spain
Husbands of non-heir princesses not receiving their wives’ titles [while wives of non-heirs do]: The Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, UK, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco [Belgium is a bit inconsistent]
Titles not being able to pass through the female line [N.B. for non-future monarchs; while they pass on (longer) for the male line): The Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, UK, Monaco, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein [Belgium is again a different case because they've both Belgium and other titles]
Queen Juliana also wanted to make Princess Margriet’s husband a prince of the Netherlands but didn’t because she was worried about setting precedent. He expressed that it was unfair that his wife and kids were princes/princesses but he wasn’t.Let's again stress that most of the European monarchies have broken a few of the mentioned traditions. Only Sweden seems to have made it completely gender-neutral in theory but in day-to-day practice Daniel is still treated differently at court than Sofia would have been had she been the crown princess and CP the crown prince; and of course, Chris refused a title.
The following traditions are still in place in the following European monarchies:
Not allowing women to inherit the throne: Liechtenstein
Male-preference primogeniture: Monaco, Spain
Husbands of non-heir princesses not receiving their wives’ titles [while wives of non-heirs do]: The Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, UK, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco [Belgium is a bit inconsistent]
Titles not being able to pass through the female line [N.B. for non-future monarchs; while they pass on (longer) for the male line): The Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, UK, Monaco, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein [Belgium is again a different case because they've both Belgium and other titles]
If Prince Daniel would demand full equality, he should argument for recieving the title of King Consort and not Prince Consort.You’re right about Sweden, the only things they haven’t applied gender equality to are the titles of the spouse of the heir and the spouse of the monarch. It’s quite unfair that Daniel has the same title he would if his wife wasn’t the heir (AKA the title Madeleine’s husband declined, a prince of Sweden and duke consort of his wife’s duchy) but Sofia would be crown princess of Sweden if Carl Philip was still the heir. Hopefully when Victoria is queen he’ll at least be HRH The Prince Consort of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland. I’m guessing that the monarchies that haven’t gone further in terms of gender equality eventually will; again you’re forgetting that Benedikte’s husband declined being made a prince of Denmark. There was a bill to allow women to inherit peerages and men to use their wives’ noble titles in the UK but it didn’t pass. Charles has said he’ll create Charlotte a duchess in her own right so I’m sure there’ll be debate about what titles her spouse and kids should have. There are going to be several reigning queens in the near future who I’m sure will make monarchies (further) consider the gender equality issue.
Which is the argument I’m making, that Daniel should be crown prince of Sweden and then king consort. The Swedish monarchy doesn’t seem interested in that though so they should at least give him the title of prince consort to distinguish him from the other princes. That was Henrik’s argument, that him simply being Prince Henrik of Denmark didn’t distinguish his position from that of his infant grandsons’.If Prince Daniel would demand full equality, he should argument for recieving the title of King Consort and not Prince Consort.
But he seems to be totally uninterested in titles…. I really cannot imagine Daniel doing a Henrik of Denmark and cause a stir about the title-question…
The Prince Consort thing in Denmark between 2005-2016 was just to appease Henriks ego as he never stopped to publicly insult his wife over not being King Consort…
Claire, Lorenz, and indeed Mathilde have the title of Prince or Princess of Belgium in their own right as those titles were given to them by separate royal decrees issued by King Albert II. Elisabetta has not been granted the title of Princess of Belgium in her own right, but she is referred by courtesy as a Princess because her husband is a Prince of Belgium. She has been called "Princess Amedeo", as in British usage, but, more commonly, "Princess Elisabetta" cf. Princess Laurentine or Princess Mabel, who are not princesses in their own right either.Thanks, so your claim was that most of the European monarchies adopted one or more of those changes. With that I fully agree.
Good point about Belgium. Although at the time it seemed more of a measure to ensure that Astrid (or Amedeo) would end up on the throne instead of Laurent if Philippe would remain unmarried. It will be interesting to see what will truly happen in the next generation: will Gabriel and Emmanuel's spouses be treated exactly the same as Eleonore's - and what about their children? So far, among the children-in-law of Astrid a clear difference can be observed: Elisabetta is called a princess, while William is not called a prince.
I guess it is a bit more easy for countries that work with peerages that are inherited by only one person (the eldest (son or child)), such as Spain, to become gender-neutral in its application. One of the main reasons given in for example the Netherlands not to go that route is that it would largely increase the number of nobles if both men and women could pass on their titles - and that is not considered desirable.
Just as a curiosity, why would King Consort be more of a "monstrosity" than "Queen Consort"?I hope a monstrosity of a title like ”king consort” will never see the light of day again…
That said, I wouldn’t mind future prince consorts of queen regnants given the style of Majesty.
I imagine you're referring to William Isvy, husband of Princess Maria Laura. Albert is their newborn son.Claire, Lorenz, and indeed Mathilde have the title of Prince or Princess of Belgium in their own right as those titles were given to them by separate royal decrees issued by King Albert II. Elisabetta has not been granted the title of Princess of Belgium in her own right, but she is referred by courtesy as a Princess because her husband is a Prince of Belgium. She has been called "Princess Amedeo", as in British usage, but, more commonly, "Princess Elisabetta" cf. Princess Laurentine or Princess Mabel, who are not princesses in their own right either.
Like Elisabetta, Albert Isvy has not been made a Prince of Belgium in his own right either and, most likely, will never be. Unlike Elisabetta, however, he is not referred to as a Prince by courtesy, which I can only attribute to the European custom of husbands not using royal titles borne by their wives, even though the contrary, i.e., wives using royal titles borne by their husbands, still seems to be customary as in Elisabetta's case.
Why not? The title of king consort is nothing new.I hope a monstrosity of a title like ”king consort” will never see the light of day again…
That said, I wouldn’t mind future prince consorts of queen regnants given the style of Majesty.
I prefer it to stay in the history books. King consorts of old were more or less co-sovereigns with their respective wives. To confer such a title in this day and age would serve no purpose.Why not? The title of king consort is nothing new.
However I’ve also thought that prince consorts should at least have the style of His Majesty.I hope a monstrosity of a title like ”king consort” will never see the light of day again…
That said, I wouldn’t mind future prince consorts of queen regnants given the style of Majesty.