Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles 1: Ending 2022

[NGalitzine]

If Edinburgh were to be recreated with a neutral remainder, then Lady Louise would inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh (as the eldest child), and James would inherit the Earldom of Wessex (as the eldest male), since it was created with a male remainder. Correct?

Correct, and unless subsidiary titles were added to the Edinburgh creation her heir would have no official courtesy titles. James would have the earldom and Viscountcy.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Correct, and unless subsidiary titles were added to the Edinburgh creation her heir would have no official courtesy titles. James would have the earldom and Viscountcy.

Lady Louise can inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh?

 

[NGalitzine]

Lady Louise can inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh?

The post above mine was suggesting that when Edinburgh is recreated for Edward it could have gender neutral succession in which case Louise would inherit the Edinburgh dukedom as the eldest child. The Wessex/Severn peerages were created with heir male succession rights so that would be inherited by James.

 

[Lumutqueen]

The post above mine was suggesting that when Edinburgh is recreated for Edward it could have gender neutral succession in which case Louise would inherit the Edinburgh dukedom as the eldest child. The Wessex/Severn peerages were created with heir male succession rights so that would be inherited by James.

I missed that bit. That would be dandy if it did.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It is nice to speculate but I really don't see it happening.

Interestingly the Cambridge title - the most recent - has 'heirs male' as the remainder so - a daughter first to inherit the throne and then a son to inherit Cambridge if William dies before becoming King.

 

[FilmStudentSarah]

I'm curious...

I don't know if this has been asked before but I was wondering, if Andrew were to remarry, what would his new wife's title be? Or would she not have one at all?

 

[MichelleQ2]

I don't know if this has been asked before but I was wondering, if Andrew were to remarry, what would his new wife's title be? Or would she not have one at all?

Perhaps she would be styled as the Countess of Inverness, following the precedent set by his brother,and she would assume the female counterpart of Andrew's second title: Earl of Inverness.

 

[Ish]

Her title would be Duchess of York. The chance of her using one of Andrew's lesser titles is slim, as Sarah doesn't have the same legacy or appeal with the masses as Diana did.

 

[Princess Pillow]

Her title would be Duchess of York. The chance of her using one of Andrew's lesser titles is slim, as Sarah doesn't have the same legacy or appeal with the masses as Diana did.

I believe I agree with you. The HRH that the 2nd Duchess of York would be entitled to use would differentiate the 2nd wife of Andrew from Sarah adequately, I would think.
However, I don't see Andrew remarrying.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Andrew's second wife would be HRH The Duchess of York, Countess of Inverness and Baroness Killyleagh - just as Sarah had them.

Sarah would remain, Sarah, Duchess of York. The use of her first name and no HRH The would be the distinction for those who 'get this stuff' but for the press there would be confusion as they don't understand how titles work.

 

[royal-blue]

It would be interesting if he did remarry, and whether or not his wife would be compared to his previous one - as happened with Charles.

 

[NGalitzine]

Almost any second wife is likely to be compared most favourably to his first wife.

 

[Americanskipper]

Two Questions:


I know there is discussion how the Duke of Edinburgh title will need to be reissued after both the Queen's and the current Duke of Edinburgh have died. Could Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all decline the title, and have the title go directly to Edward? I am not suggesting they would or even should, just wondering if it is possible.


Also, I often hear discussion of the burden of HRH and titles, how Edward doesn't want his children to be titled Princess and Prince so that they can live a more normal life. What are the burdens of being styled HRH? How are Edward's children life better or worse because they are not titled Princess and Prince?

 

[Ish]

Two Questions:

I know there is discussion how the Duke of Edinburgh title will need to be reissued after both the Queen's and the current Duke of Edinburgh have died. Could Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all decline the title, and have the title go directly to Edward? I am not suggesting they would or even should, just wondering if it is possible.

Also, I often hear discussion of the burden of HRH and titles, how Edward doesn't want his children to be titled Princess and Prince so that they can live a more normal life. What are the burdens of being styled HRH? How are Edward's children life better or worse because they are not titled Princess and Prince?

It's possible to disclaim a hereditary peerage, however when they do so the peerage doesn't simply pass on to the next in line. Instead the peerage remains without a holder until the individual who disclaimed it dies, at which point it passes on to the next person in line. So, if Charles were to become DoE he could disclaim the peerage, but no one would be DoE until he dies, at which point William would inherit it. Charles, William, Harry, and Andrew (and any legitimate sons that any of them might have) would still all have to die without becoming King in order for the title to be available for Edward's use (in which case I would wonder if Edward would be the 2nd or the 6th Duke). Much easier to simply have the title recreated after it merges with the crown.

As for the issue of being a prince/princess vs a lord/lady, I think a big part is that there isn't likely to ever be an argument about whether or not James and Louise should carry out royal engagements. There is such an argument surrounding the Yorks (and often those who fall on the shouldn't side seem to believe that under Charles they should also lose their HRH), but not the Phillipses. In a lot of ways, Anne's children seem to have been able to live less scrutinized lives than Andrew's have. The same can be said of the more extended Windsor family, the non-HRH titles. Edward no doubt grew up seeing the freedoms that his non-royal cousins and niece and nephew had and wanted it for his children.

 

[ralmcg]

If Princes Philip, Charles, and William die before Queen Elizabeth II then the title Duke of Edinburgh would go to Prince George, Prince William's son. If that's the case then when Prince George becomes king the title should be incorporated in the kingly office. Let's assume he becomes king before he reaches eighteen years old. The regent would be Prince Harry. I believe Prince Harry, as regent, would have the power to grant the title Duke of Edinburgh to Prince Edward.

 

[Lumutqueen]

If Princes Philip, Charles, and William die before Queen Elizabeth II then the title Duke of Edinburgh would go to Prince George, Prince William's son. If that's the case then when Prince George becomes king the title should be incorporated in the kingly office. Let's assume he becomes king before he reaches eighteen years old. The regent would be Prince Harry. I believe Prince Harry, as regent, would have the power to grant the title Duke of Edinburgh to Prince Edward.

That scenario is most unlikely however, what is likely is that

The Duke of Edinburgh passes away and the title goes to Charles, when The Queen passes DOE merges with the Crown and King Charles regrants the title with new letters patent specifically for Edward and his heirs so the title and customary titles stay with The wessexes.

Or

Second most likely is The Queen passes Charles becomes King, DOE then passes sometime later and his title therefore merges with the crown and we have the same regranting etc.

Iluvbertie created all possible scenarios, in this thread - http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-future-of-the-duke-of-edinburgh-title-24343.html

 

[vkrish]

Whatever it is, I hardly see a point in the Queen willing that DoE title should pass to Edward once it reverts back to the Crown.
By the time the Queen dies (in 15-20 years), William, Harry, their wives and kids would have totally taken centre-stage, and Edward's family will almost be out of limelight.
What is the point of making him a Duke then? I mean, there wont be any change in his public stanging or image..
If she wanted to make him a Duke, he should have been made one at the time of his wedding, in his prime, with one of the available ones.
DoE is a title recognised worldwide with enormous influence, and giving it to some "minor royals" ( they indeed become so in Charles' and William's reigns) is not something I like. That too when Edward wants his kids to be more "common" than "royal"..Anyway, its the Queen's wish..
Just my opinion..

 

[Lumutqueen]

Anyway, its the Queen's wish..

In there lies your answer, the title was I imagine promised to Edward when he married and frankly he deserves it after the work he's done alongside his father and without. Also - why add DOE to the string of titles a monarch already has when it can be put to some excellent use.

 

[Molly2101]

Edward does A LOT for the DoE award, as does Sophie. It's on fitting that he become the next DoE when his father passes away so he can carry on the award. James will eventually become His Grace, Duke of Edinburgh and I am sure he will support the award, whether he does it or not.

Edward declined being made a Duke at his wedding because the discussion about him becoming DoE had obviously happened, thus he probably felt it wasn't right to be made a Duke twice.

 

[vkrish]

You need not be a DoE or a future DoE to work for DoE awards. Any of his four children could do that. And since it is more suitable/convenient for Edward, he started working on that.
I dont have anything against Edward or his children.
Just that I am so much in awe of the DoE title, so I dont want it to become a non-royal/minor one so quickly.
It could have been kept in reserve for another direct heir in future (like William)..when such a situation arises..
​

 

[Molly2101]

Edward had not even heard of the award until he went to school, and he is the only one who did the award. Why would William be given the title when he has had nothing to do with the award? It would not be fair on Edward who has supported it, and travels a lot for the award to promote it and give out awards on behalf of his aging father, not be given the title?

The "minor" Royals as you are referring to them can just as well promote a Royal title as well as any other. William and co. "major" Royals will have enough titles between them, they don't need another one. William will be Duke of Cornwall and Cambride, then The Prince of Wales and then The King. Why would he need to be The Duke of Cornwall, Cambridge and Edinburgh?

Harry will likely become the Duke of Sussex, and he may very well become the Duke of York and Sussex when Andrew dies, as Andrew has no son's to pass on his title too. It's tradition for the second son of the Monarch to be made Duke of York, so perhaps in the future Harry will be given the Dukedom.

 

[Lumutqueen]

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Just that I am so much in awe of the DoE title, so I dont want it to become a non-royal/minor one so quickly.
It could have been kept in reserve for another direct heir in future (like William)..when such a situation arises..

Except we have a problem, I doubt you will be in awe of a title that no one will ever use again if it did remain with Charles, then William, then George and so on. Because the title Duke of Edinburgh will only be passed down when each one dies, and what other title do they get if their father dies? King. They will be known and King Charles, King William, King George and effectively The Duke of Edinburgh will do no more. Charles couldn't really regrant it to William as a customary title either because that would be giving him 4 titles, same goes for George.

Andrew has a dukedom, and Anne has her own title. Edward will put it to good use, as I imagine will James.

 

[vkrish]

It could be "reserved" as the peerage exclusively for the consorts of Queen Regnants or Heiresses-Apparent in future..just my idea..
I mean every time such consort dies, it will automatically merge with the crown..And can be used the next time a female monarch ascends/about to ascend..
No need to make that official, but it will be a good precedence..

 

[Lumutqueen]

It could be "reserved" as the peerage exclusively for the consorts of Queen Regnants or Heiresses-Apparent in future..just my idea..
I mean every time such consort dies, it will automatically merge with the crown..And can be used the next time a female monarch ascends/about to ascend..
No need to make that official, but it will be a good precedence..

For that to happen you would have to change the rules of the peerage which makes little sense to reserve it for a consort who more than likely won't have any living emotional ties to the title. It will just be a title for him.

Unless Edward passes before his father, I'm pretty darn sure he will be created Duke of Edinburgh and I imagine that's just what his father wants.

 

[vkrish]

For that to happen you would have to change the rules of the peerage

I did not mean to reserve it officially. The message can simply be passed over generations.

makes little sense to reserve it for a consort who more than likely won't have any living emotional ties to the title. It will just be a title for him.

Well this really makes sense.. Nice point..

 

[vkrish]

Were/Are there any peerages created without the tag "heirs body male"?
If a son of monarch wants his kids to grow up as real-commoners (not half-way like Edward) no prefixes/no suffixes/styles/titles, just Mr X M-W then can/will the monarch create him a peer just for himself, so that after his death the title reverts to Crown, instead of passing on to his son.
Any precedence?
Or any chances of adopting this method in future as "modernisation"?

 

[cepe]

I think it is a way for the work of the Duke of Edinburgh to be remembered and celebrated. He could not give his children his name which he was unhappy about (I know that there was a change later). He has made this title important and he is a man who believes in continuity. His flesh and blood, his name (title) continuing. I think it is a good thing that it will happen.

 

[cepe]

Were/Are there any peerages created without the tag "heirs body male"?
If a son of monarch wants his kids to grow up as real-commoners (not half-way like Edward), then can/will the monarch create him a peer just for himself, so that after his death the title reverts to Crown, instead of passing on to his son.
Any precedence?
Or any chances of adopting this method in future as "modernisation"?

Earl Mountbatten of Burma - title inherited by his daughter; quite a few scottish ones. Also, one of the Queen's bridesmaids (who never married) inherited a title.

 

[vkrish]

Earl Mountbatten of Burma - title inherited by his daughter; quite a few scottish ones. Also, one of the Queen's bridesmaids (who never married) inherited a title.

I am not asking whether a daughter can inherit.
If HRH Prince ABC, son of a monarch wants his kids to grow up simply as Mr X Mountbatten-Windsor, and no other title whatsoever, then at the time of creating him a peer, if the monarch simply omits the "heirs body male", then it is possible right?
That the peerage no longer exists after the said Prince dies, and title reverts to Crown instead of passing to his son..

 

[Duke of Leaside]

I am not asking whether a daughter can inherit.
If HRH Prince ABC, son of a monarch wants his kids to grow up simply as Mr X Mountbatten-Windsor, and no other title whatsoever, then at the time of creating him a peer, if the monarch simply omits the "heirs body male", then it is possible right?
That the peerage no longer exists after the said Prince dies, and title reverts to Crown instead of passing to his son..

I don't know if this has ever happened, but I don't see why it couldn't; and just the way you described above, by omitting "and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten" from the letters patent conferring the peerage.

I'm suspicious this might have been done when King George VI conferred Duke of Windsor on his brother The Prince Edward (former King Edward VIII). The actual letters patent from March 8, 1937 have never been released but I'd love to read them. I suspect that they may have restricted the Dukedom to just Edward and there were also no subsidiary peerages.