Queen Alia's children after her death

[maryshawn]

Go to Team Harmony site and the bold quote from Alia to Haya chosen by Haya:

I ASKED HER MANY TIMES: "MAMA HOW TO BECOME QUEEN? CAN I BECOME A QUEEN LIKE YOU WHEN I GROW UP?" SHE WOULD LAUGH, "YOU AREA A QUEEN TO YOUR FATHER AND TO ME, AND ONE DAY YOU WILL BE A QUEEN TO THE MAN YOU LOVE, AND WHO LOVES YOU BACK, INSHALLAH. BUT REMEMBER, TITLES MEAN NOTHING; IT'S ONLY WHAT YOU HAVE INSIDE THAT MEANS EVERYTHING."

Wise words; seemingly forgotten.

I still say life for Haya would be very different if Queen Alia were alive and guiding her beautiful daughter who still has so much potential--but seems to be intent on throwing it away. Reminds me of Princess Caroline, who married a totally unsuitable man when she was 20--but she was 20; Haya is acting as if she is 20........and almost regressing in her decision-making abilitiies. I sometimes get the feeling she is trying to "get back" at someone--or just the hand life has dealt her thus far.

 

[Ipi Tombe]

okay, PH was 2 when QA died.

all mommy's in the group whose 2yr old daughter can cogizantly remember conversations-please raise your hand. much less about such abstract thoughts as 'queens' and 'husbands'.

puhlease. your comment maryshawn about haya acting like a 20yr old is right on target. the girl needs to grow up. mo ain't her daddy (and she needs to quit acting like he is-his kids have a million times more dignity and class) and she is never going to be queen of anything-Dubai included.

 

[Juls]

I think what QA said to PH is very interesting and right!

 

[shelley]

okay, PH was 2 when QA died.

.

Actually, I think she was nearer 3 1/2, but your point still stands ! Still can't do a smilie. Sorry. so

 

[madonna23]

I think Haya's comments about what her mother said to her is just another example of how the some of the members of the JRF like to exaggerate and cover up their family problems and such. Nothing particularly wrong with it but it is odd.

 

[sommone]

Go to Team Harmony site and the bold quote from Alia to Haya chosen by Haya:

I ASKED HER MANY TIMES: "MAMA HOW TO BECOME QUEEN? CAN I BECOME A QUEEN LIKE YOU WHEN I GROW UP?" SHE WOULD LAUGH, "YOU AREA A QUEEN TO YOUR FATHER AND TO ME, AND ONE DAY YOU WILL BE A QUEEN TO THE MAN YOU LOVE, AND WHO LOVES YOU BACK, INSHALLAH. BUT REMEMBER, TITLES MEAN NOTHING; IT'S ONLY WHAT YOU HAVE INSIDE THAT MEANS EVERYTHING."

Wise words; seemingly forgotten.

I still say life for Haya would be very different if Queen Alia were alive and guiding her beautiful daughter who still has so much potential--but seems to be intent on throwing it away. Reminds me of Princess Caroline, who married a totally unsuitable man when she was 20--but she was 20; Haya is acting as if she is 20........and almost regressing in her decision-making abilitiies. I sometimes get the feeling she is trying to "get back" at someone--or just the hand life has dealt her thus far.

Asking about how can she be a queen isn't that far fetched, or either I have a smart three year old because my daughter asks me things that I would never imagine her asking because she is three. She surprises me everyday with some of the things she says. However, as for remembering a conversation word for word at that age is impossible...I can't remember anything about anything when I was three. Actually wouldn't Haya have been 21/2 since she was born in May 1974 and Queen Alia died in Feb 1977? Ok now that is impossible. Hmm...That is suspect.

 

[Balqis]

All children are different and their development is different. It is unusual to remember a conversation when you are that young I agree, but also you must remember Haya lost her mother. She might have very vivid memories of Alia particularly because she died and for a child that would be a very good reason to store them in her mind, because they are so special. I remember things as far as back as 2, things I have stored, moments frozen in time. Also if little Haya talked to others about this particular conversation straight after it happened, it would have been a good way to remember and not loose this precious moment in time with her Mom.

 

[shelley]

Actually wouldn't Haya have been 21/2 since she was born in May 1974 and Queen Alia died in Feb 1977? Ok now that is impossible. Hmm...That is suspect.

I stand corrected. She was exactly 2 years and 9 months when her mother died, which is no age to lose a parent, and sadly explains many of her problems. P. Ali was even younger, just fourteen months. Both were young enough to really bond with Q. Noor, but unfortunately that did not happen. I am sure Noor was well intentioned, but as a not particularly maternal ( by her own admission ) twenty six year old, her emotional basket was filled to capacity when she had her own children. What I find disturbing is, allowing for her own problems, being step mother to eight children, being a foreigner, a younger wife, etc etc why the Q. insisted on removing the children from the care of P. Hassan and P. Sarvath who had a much less complicated household and family situation and one into which they fitted with no problem. To remove them from a family atmosphere only send to them away to boarding school so young is inexplicable to me.

 

[papillon]

What I find disturbing is, allowing for her own problems, being step mother to eight children, being a foreigner, a younger wife, etc etc why the Q. insisted on removing the children from the care of P. Hassan and P. Sarvath who had a much less complicated household and family situation and one into which they fitted with no problem. To remove them from a family atmosphere only send to them away to boarding school so young is inexplicable to me.

It's puzzling to me, too. Even a non-maternal sort would know that children are better off with loving family members than strangers running an educational institution.

 

[Ipi Tombe]

KH was also these kid's parent. He could of stood up for them and told their stepmommy that they deserved better-but he didn't. I think KH gets off easy since he was a K-I-N-G but he is also these kids father and should have had some sort of input in their upbrining. Or maybe euro boarding schools were his idea.

 

[papillon]

KH was also these kid's parent. He could of stood up for them and told their stepmommy that they deserved better-but he didn't. I think KH gets off easy since he was a K-I-N-G but he is also these kids father and should have had some sort of input in their upbrining. Or maybe euro boarding schools were his idea.

Agree with you, Ipi. It took TWO parents to raise those children as they were. Why do the men always get off so easily?!

 

[shelley]

Agree with you, Ipi. It took TWO parents to raise those children as they were. Why do the men always get off so easily?!

And with you Papillion. I agree that the late king was probably very busy, in fact I know he was, but that does not excuse his rather lackadaisical attitude to parenting. Knowing the limitations that life would inevitably put on him was it necessary to have eleven children by four different women in a so called modern society ? And rich gifts do not make up for good old fashioned 'being there'. It is inexcusable that he didn't give more attention to these particular children who were motherless as well. Haya was the favourite daughter, and materially lacked for nothing, but poor Ali didn't even have the benefit of being special anything. I really hope that he finds happiness now.

 

[papillon]

Knowing the limitations that life would inevitably put on him was it necessary to have eleven children by four different women in a so called modern society ?

Yes, don't even get me started on the "merits" of having that many children when one is a leader of a poor country. Not only is it irresponsible to his own children, what a bad example to set for his people. I think birth control was already invented and available, yes?!

 

[sommone]

I stand corrected. She was exactly 2 years and 9 months when her mother died, which is no age to lose a parent, and sadly explains many of her problems. P. Ali was even younger, just fourteen months. Both were young enough to really bond with Q. Noor, but unfortunately that did not happen. I am sure Noor was well intentioned, but as a not particularly maternal ( by her own admission ) twenty six year old, her emotional basket was filled to capacity when she had her own children. What I find disturbing is, allowing for her own problems, being step mother to eight children, being a foreigner, a younger wife, etc etc why the Q. insisted on removing the children from the care of P. Hassan and P. Sarvath who had a much less complicated household and family situation and one into which they fitted with no problem. To remove them from a family atmosphere only send to them away to boarding school so young is inexplicable to me.

See, that's what I didn't understand about Queen Noor, too...If the shoe was on the other foot, and Q Alia was the one who had to raise her children (noor's), I'm sure she wouldn't have wanted them to be shipped off anywhere, especially to some boarding school. The way I heard the story was that Q Zein was the one that raised them. I didn't know that P. Hassan and his wife had them, and they were removed and placed in a boarding school. That is the only reason why I am not fond of Noor. And whomever made the statement about KH taking some of the responsibility was correct as well. I can't believe that he even allowed it, point blank. It's one thing for them to stay with relatives when they were away on duties, but to just remove them from the home totally is completely unacceptable.

 

[Ipi Tombe]

this whole boarding school thing is a little exaggerated-isn't it? weren't they shipped off when they were in high school? i do think i remember that haya went to boarding for high school but her lower years were spent in jordan so if that is the case-i don't think there is anything particularly wrong with QN and KH's decision.

who knows-the boarding school might have also doubled as some sort of finishing school for the young princess. it might have classed her up a bit....

oohhh goodness....

i have to stop typing.....

i can't stop laughing.......

sorry, will write more when i regain my compsure.

See, that's what I didn't understand about Queen Noor, too...If the shoe was on the other foot, and Q Alia was the one who had to raise her children (noor's), I'm sure she wouldn't have wanted them to be shipped off anywhere, especially to some boarding school. The way I heard the story was that Q Zein was the one that raised them. I didn't know that P. Hassan and his wife had them, and they were removed and placed in a boarding school. That is the only reason why I am not fond of Noor. And whomever made the statement about KH taking some of the responsibility was correct as well. I can't believe that he even allowed it, point blank. It's one thing for them to stay with relatives when they were away on duties, but to just remove them from the home totally is completely unacceptable.

 

[shelley]

The way I heard the story was that Q Zein was the one that raised them. I didn't know that P. Hassan and his wife had them, and they were removed and placed in a boarding school. .

By the time Haya and Ali needed mothering, Queen Zein was already in delicate health and there was no question of her being directly involved in their upbringing. So when their mother died, the late king brought the children over to their uncle and aunt's home and asked that the children be raised with their children. Although they continued to live next door with their father, they spent much of their time in their uncle's home,( going on skiing holidays with his family, spending Christmas with them etc etc., ) as did K. Hussein right till the last months of his life - he would drop in for meals, hold meetings there, special guests would be accomodated in P Hassan and P Sarvath's home etc etc ) It was only natural with their father's remarriage that the time the children spent with their uncle and aunt, and with their mother's family, would lessen, but as it turned out, they didn't see that much of their parents either as they were often away. The children were sent to boarding school when they reached 8/9. On their mid term breaks, they would often return to just nannies at home and so they would naturally gravitate back to their uncle. Eventually this was also discouraged. The children could literally go for months and months without seeing either of their grandmothers. It was very strange. No one seemed to have much time for them in their father's home, and yet anyone who reached out to them was pushed away. and

 

[Ipi Tombe]

all of them should be taken out behind a barn and spanked.

also QN being constantly vilified is shortsighted. but (as i have said before) after reading qn's book-her husband seemed like 'the husband from hell' and now 'the father from hell'. he might have been a good leader but his personal life could have stood a little attention.

also, shelley, i read that you said that ph was kh's favorite. why did he treat his daughter this way if she was his favorite?

 

[sommone]

Thanks for the clarification. It's really sad that they were shuffled around from place to place like that. I hope they have found some kind of happiness.

 

[papillon]

but (as i have said before) after reading qn's book-her husband seemed like 'the husband from hell' and now 'the father from hell'.

To paraphrase the late Jacqueline Kennedy. . .if you fail at parenting, it doesn't really matter what the rest of your accomplishments might be, you're still a failure. Sorry, I'm a hard buns about people who bring children into this world and then decide they don't really want to finish the job of raising them.

 

[shelley]

shelley, i read that you said that ph was kh's favorite. why did he treat his daughter this way if she was his favorite?

She was his favourite daughter. Hamzah eventually became his favourite son, no question of that. And by his lights he was a devoted, generous parent. However, I have often thought about about the late king's other personal relations. With his wives, some of his close friends, his other family members; and have long ago come to the conclusion that he was quite a sad and to a certain degree damaged human being on the emotional level. He had a father who was often unwell, (although by all accounts a brilliant and kindly man ) who had a poor relationship with his father, the fallout of which was felt by Hussein and his parents and siblings. ( I have also wondered how much of his illness was as a direct result of the treatment he received at his father's hands, who thought that Talal had outlandish modern ideas such as wanting to go to university, and marry a woman of his own choosing - its all in the official records about Jordan which make fascinating reading - truth often being stranger than fiction) The late king was basically removed from his parents' care at a young age and brought up by his grandfather and would therefore have sub-consiously at least, been a victim of some sort of emotional tug of war between his parents and grandfather. He had a very sketchy education from a modern point of view ( no academic qualifications on paper) although an excellent classical education ( his command of the Arabic language was superb). He saw his grandfather killed before him at sixteen, became king at eighteen. Married way too young the first time ( but from his own choice ) probably to assert himself, and then started on ther slippery slope that ended up with four wives, eleven children, countless other relationships. But basically, it is difficult to give what you don't have, and what he didn't have was a 'normal' balanced childhood. And when such a person is in a position to affect other people's lives, phew !! And on the similar note, Q. Noor, in her book, admits that her childhood was also less than ideal. So two perhaps well intentioned but emotionally scarred people couldn't set the stage for happy families.

 

[Balqis]

Shelley, I would be very interested to know what you think of King Abdullah's childhood. How do you think he was raised? What was the impact on his parents' divorce on him. I realize this is way off topic here. So perhaps this can be moved into another new or relevant thread if moderators object.

 

[papillon]

But basically, it is difficult to give what you don't have, and what he didn't have was a 'normal' balanced childhood.

Couldn't agree with you more about this, Shelley, but one still has to wonder, then, why have so many children? I am empathetic to the plight of not having an idyllic or even normal childhood, but I am puzzled as to why anyone with that background would bring so many children into the world without first seeing, with maybe the first couple, yes, okay, I can do this, I'm a good parent.

 

[papillon]

She was his favourite daughter. Hamzah eventually became his favourite son, no question of that.

Am I the only one bugged by this whole notion of a parent declaring one son and daughter the favorites? Is this just a cultural thing?

 

[Ipi Tombe]

butterfly:

i think all parent's have their favorites (many days i prefer my hairbrained terrier over my 2yr old daughter) but i think in the middle east the title 'the favorite' has much more weight quite possibly because the families are so much larger. the title denotes that your parent might actually know you exist. compare how much time our parents had for us (it seems most of us are from smaller 'western-sized' families and then divide that time over the span of 12 kids (as in the case of KH or 27 as in the case of Shk Mo or 130 as in the case of Shk Zayed). so you see being favorite starts having some kind relevance as more and more kids come along.......

 

[papillon]

butterfly:

i think all parent's have their favorites (many days i prefer my hairbrained terrier over my 2yr old daughter) but i think in the middle east the title 'the favorite' has much more weight quite possibly because the families are so much larger. the title denotes that your parent might actually know you exist. compare how much time our parents had for us (it seems most of us are from smaller 'western-sized' families and then divide that time over the span of 12 kids (as in the case of KH or 27 as in the case of Shk Mo or 130 as in the case of Shk Zayed). so you see being favorite starts having some kind relevance as more and more kids come along.......

Good point, Ipi. I'm not so naive to think parents don't actually have their favorites, but to say so so openly and publicly is the part that gets to me. But at least in larger families, the nonfavorites can glom together and commiserate in the knowledge that they totally outnumber the favorite. It's not quite so insulting. In smaller families, this would create such tension. There might be only one nonfavorite. . .how lonely and cruel!

 

[sommone]

Good point, Ipi. I'm not so naive to think parents don't actually have their favorites, but to say so so openly and publicly is the part that gets to me. But at least in larger families, the nonfavorites can glom together and commiserate in the knowledge that they totally outnumber the favorite. It's not quite so insulting. In smaller families, this would create such tension. There might be only one nonfavorite. . .how lonely and cruel!

I agree it is cruel to voice in the open that you have one favorite daughter and one favortie son out of 12 children...Imagine how everyone else must feel. Don't get me wrong, I think KH loved all of his children, but not equally. Which brings to mind if Haya was his favorite daughter then why was she allowed to be raised by other family members instead of being home? I have an older brother, and I am my mother's favorite child...up until now, I never thought how it might affect my brother, or I never looked at it through his eyes...

 

[papillon]

I agree it is cruel to voice in the open that you have one favorite daughter and one favortie son out of 12 children...Imagine how everyone else must feel. Don't get me wrong, I think KH loved all of his children, but not equally. Which brings to mind if Haya was his favorite daughter then why was she allowed to be raised by other family members instead of being home? I have an older brother, and I am my mother's favorite child...up until now, I never thought how it might affect my brother, or I never looked at it through his eyes...

When my grandfather died last summer, quite a few of us grandchildren discovered that we each thought we were his favorite. I think this is a hallmark of good parenting or grandparenting. It's too bad KH's children didn't all feel that way when he died.

I agree that it's probably not possible to love each child equally. . .maybe differently, for they are different people. But it still bothers me that a parent would make this so known, not just within the family, but globally.

 

[Angie]

eleven children, . .

He had 12 children, let's not forget Miss Abir!

I agree it is cruel to voice in the open that you have one favorite daughter and one favortie son out of 12 children...Imagine how everyone else must feel....

I'm sure they were delighted to hear this!
NOT. All this is just so sad.

 

[papillon]

I'm sure they were delighted to hear this!

NOT. All this is just so sad.

Well, I'm sure it is nice to be P. Hamzah and P. Haya! At least they get to live with the certainty that they were loved and cherished above all the others.

But I really hope the next generation of royals has less complicated love lives and/or fewer children, the latter especially if they are not good at parenting. The bad parenting gene runs in vicious cycles within families. This is borne out in empirical studies. . .it'd be a shame if each of KH's offspring has as many children as he had (unless they get therapy. . .could probably get group rates or a quantity discount on that ).

 

[maryshawn]

Alia and Haya Discussion

Perhaps she heard this from her mother and then her nanny and father.....so while not a true memory, it could've been passed along to her---you know how it is "when your mother was alive, you asked her.....and she said...."

okay, PH was 2 when QA died.

all mommy's in the group whose 2yr old daughter can cogizantly remember conversations-please raise your hand. much less about such abstract thoughts as 'queens' and 'husbands'.

puhlease. your comment maryshawn about haya acting like a 20yr old is right on target. the girl needs to grow up. mo ain't her daddy (and she needs to quit acting like he is-his kids have a million times more dignity and class) and she is never going to be queen of anything-Dubai included.