Prince Henrik's Plans for his Final Resting Place: August 2017

[Muhler]

Because the head of state is just that, the very top-figure. And in the current systems of all countries on Earth right now they all have one, and one person only, as head of state.

Your other arguments don't hold water.
The last time they tried having someone with equal authority to a general, was in the Soviet Union. Result: They had huge problems defeating Finland in 1939.
In every system, in order for it to function efficiently, there is one person who in the end makes the final decision. You can call them whatever you want, but there is still only one boss in the end.

I must confess that I simply cannot comprehend why titles are so important. Perhaps it's a cultural thing?
I have a fancy title at work and I don't care. It doesn't make my work easier. I can't pay my bills with my title. It's not that parking-wardens salute me instead of writing out a bill.
You can call a spade "a manually operated digging tool", it sounds fancy but it's still just a spade.

It makes no difference for PH if he should get his way and become king-consort tomorrow. He won't, pardon me, all of a sudden start to sh*t Tiffany cuff-links.
It's down to sheer vanity and I do not believe in rewarding whiners.

Even if I happened to agree with you in regards to titles having to be gender-equal/neutral, which I most certainly don't, I would still be against simply out of defiance.I will not reward PH for being a whiner! And I will just as passionately support Mary becoming queen, because I will not accept demoting her and change an old tradition, because a whiner didn't get his way. PH has until he retired been the second highest ranking person in Denmark. No title will change or diminish that fact.
Believe me, arguments about what would be politically correct won't get you very in far in Denmark. On the contrary! Even feminists are openly laughed at - not least by other women here in DK.

 

[mslewis]

Silly old man.

 

[wyevale]

Muhler, I'm no real advocate of 'Titular' gender equality and CERTAINLY not for rewarding this whining, miserable man who has shamed his adopted nation, his sovereign and his wife is so base a manner.
I was merely suggesting that a 'Sovereign,Consort' option would solve the issue for those that do think change is necessary !

 

[Mbruno]

If we are really serious about ending Gender 'discrimination' within Monarchies how about HM 'the Sovereign of Denmark' and HRH 'the Consort of Denmark', that way Gender is absolutely removed from the Titles ?

It would work in English and , as I mentioned, it was actually done before, e.g. in the New Zealand Constitution Act 1986 where there is no mention to the King or Queen, but only to "the Sovereign".

In other European languages, however, the word "sovereign" is also gender-specific, e.g.

In Spanish: el Soberano (male) vs la Soberana (female).

Again, you could take the conservative French position according to which titles don't have female forms such that there is only le Souverain , but not la Souveraine, but that is controversial. I suppose the French Academy still supports that point of view, but the rule is not uniformly observed throughout the French-speaking world, certainly not in Quebec AFAIK (maybe the French-speaking posters here can comment further !).

 

[wartenberg7]

Passive/agressive is bad enough in Public.. how ghastly he/it must be in Private with his long suffering, yet eternally dignified Wife ?

I´m more than shocked how far the narcism of this man brought him! Women havent been considered "equal" to their husbands for centuries - in many areas around the globe they are still not - but nobody would have come up with the idea that she wouldn´t be buried next to him!
Henrik is such a narrow minded, childish man at the age of 83, it´s unbelievable!

 

[Pranter]

TBH I don't understand some people trying so hard to find some (ridiculous) excuses to justify his recent action (other than medical/mental health reasons)

Because it can be a legitimate medical issue given his age and what we know about how dementia effects the person. I have worked with the elderly not to mention had 2 relatives suffer from dementia ...it can cause these types of things to happen.

Prince Henrik could just be being an ass..or maybe he really does have a problem.

LaRae

 

[maria-olivia]

For the next Generation : Prince Consorts in Sweden , Norway, Belgium and the Netherlands.

 

[Terri Terri]

and Spain

 

[Denville]

well maybe he jus wants to be buried in France? Perhaps he and Margrethe are not that happy or he just wants to be buried in his native country.

 

[Mbruno]

For the next Generation : Prince Consorts in Sweden , Norway, Belgium and the Netherlands.

And, in Spain (per the royal decree 1368/1987), which, as I said, is illogical and goes against the trend of gender equality elsewhere in society, and, in the case of Spain in particular, against the country's own practice in the past ! I blame it on the British influence.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Prince Henrik's daughter-in-law will be Queen and share her spouse's rank. In neighbouring Sweden, Mr Daniel Westling will never share his spouse's rank, but was Prince Carl Philip still the Crown Prince, his spouse Sofia Hellqvist would have been Queen Sofia of Sweden...

[...]

It is the same anomaly which sees that a Mr Christopher O'Neill and a Mr Pieter van Vollenhoven did not become a Prince when marrying a Princess, while the other way round is "automatic" but these commoner gentlemen see their own flesh and blood titled Princes and Princesses...

So spare me the objective rants, spits and fuming, all his life long the Prince has pointed to this sore ulcer in the royal titulature and it was always laughed off: "Mad Henrik" but everyone can feel in his big toe that he has always and ever hit a relevant discriminatory system. [...]

The European system of titulature is indeed discriminatory against women, because, applying the old patrilineal system of family, women have been subsumed into the identities of their husbands, whereas men have retained their own identities on marriage.

However, neither is Prince Henrik a supporter of gender-neutral royal titulature.

The descendants of Prince Henrik are Counts of Monpezat, to which he did not raise an objection.
The descendants of Queen Ingrid are not Princesses Bernadotte.
The descendants of Crown Princess Mary are not Donaldsons.

In Sweden and the Netherlands:

The children of Christopher O'Neill are sometimes known as Leonore and Nicolas Bernadotte O'Neill.
The son of Princess Sofia of Sweden is never known as Alexander Bernadotte Hellqvist.

The children of Pieter van Vollenhoven are Princes of Orange-Nassau, van Vollenhoven.
The children of Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands are not Count(esse)s of Orange-Nassau Brinkhorst.

However, in countries lik Spain where equal primogeniture has been recently introduced in the succession to titles of nobility, my understanding is that husbands of a titled female (e.g. a duchess. or marchioness, or countess ) are now also referred to by their wives' titles (e.g. as duke, marquis, etc.).

It was the rule in Spain even before equal primogeniture was introduced.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Thats very true we didn't hear Prince Henrik whining that the title of Counts of Monpezat can only be passed on in the male line

 

[wyevale]

None of the 'next generation' are likely to be as arrogant, self-centred or 'entitled' as Prince Henrik, and thank GOD for it...

 

[AdmirerUS]

Bitter is not a good look on anyone. Especially when railing against an issue is not going to change it. I'm kinda sad for him.

 

[Muhler]

You are right Tatiana Maria.

I wonder if PH, had he been the monarch, would have been equally as willing to make princess-consort Margrethe a queen?

I will stay out of the general equal/gender neutral title discussion. You know where I stand anyway.

Also because PH using gender equality as an argument to further his cause makes my blood pressure rise. ?

 

[Dee Anna]

From the perspective of a 'title', I agree with Duc_et_Pair in terms of logic but I think it's time that the spouse of a sovereign should become King Consort/Queen Consort, or equivalent for Grand Duchies and Principalities. But that's only for a "title".

Which is in part true in the UK, Elizabeth, Duchess of York did become Queen Consort, Queen Elizabeth - a title bestowed on her only because and dependant on her being the wife of the King. Philip, Duke of Edinburgh became Prince Consort.

Are there any husbands of Queens who have been granted the title of King Consort?

I'm not sure I can see this happening in the modern era, even in the scenario of "title" only. What's the point? If it matters that much maybe you're not the right person for the job anyway?!

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Even if Prince Henrik had received the title "King Consort" I doubt he would had been happy. It seems he really just wanted to be "King."
I'm in the camp that some form of dementia may be a factor. Some older folks get more fixated on the past than the present because their memory is affected by dementia. Which would be why his early grievances are resurfacing now. They have possibly become more important in his mind again.

 

[wyevale]

Are there any husbands of Queens who have been granted the title of King Consort?

Not [in England] since the DEEPLY unpopular marital alliance between Mary lst and Philip ll of Spain in the l6th century [which may have been the reason the idea 'never took off' !

 

[Mbruno]

Are there any husbands of Queens who have been granted the title of King Consort?

I am not sure if there has ever been a "King Consort" in England, but Philip II of Spain, while he was married to Queen Mary I, was King jure uxoris of England, which is effectively co-monarch, rather than merely a consort. In fact, there are many examples of Kings jure uxoris in medieval and early modern Europe, see this Wikipedia article .

Even as late as the 19th century, Fernando II of Portugal was King jure uxoris and not merely a consort, by virtue of his marriage to Queen Maria II, but only as long as his wife was alive and after their first child was born (the same rule , I believe, would have applied to the husband of Princess Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil, if she had ascended the throne). An example of a true "King Consort", who was not a co-monarch himself, is King Francis of Spain (husband of Queen Isabella II).

I suppose the tipping point IMHO was really Prince Albert not being named "King" in the UK, which in turn later influenced the northern European monarchies like the Netherlands and, more recently, Belgium and the Scandinavian monarchies, which did not have female succession to the throne until the second half of the 20th century.

Personally, I don't support the idea of a King jure uxoris, as I agree there should be only one monarch / Head of State, but I think king consort is an acceptable title as long the title of queen consort is also used. As of today, however, unless the rules change in the future, all husbands of present or future European queen regnants have or will have the dignity only of Prince with the style of Royal Highness rather than Majesty.

 

[Osipi]

Even if Prince Henrik had received the title "King Consort" I doubt he would had been happy. It seems he really just wanted to be "King."
I'm in the camp that some form of dementia may be a factor. Some older folks get more fixated on the past than the present because their memory is affected by dementia. Which would be why his early grievances are resurfacing now. They have possibly become more important in his mind again.

The more I think about it, the more I'm in the camp that thinks it may be dementia or a form of it. I'm seriously wondering if perhaps during his hospital stay that he was told to get his affairs in order and with a faltering mind, part of getting things in order is making the statement of his last wishes as far as his burial as this whole "king" business has been a pet peeve of his for a long time. On the other hand, some of the family has stated that they've known these wishes for a while.

Then again, 10 years from now we may still be wondering where he's chosen to be buried at. All I know is that perhaps we don't know everything there is to know surrounding this recent announcement.

 

[Winnie]

Dear Muhler I sincerely want to thank you for the Danish opinion. As an American I am interested in all the comments and opinions as it fascinates me. But, in the long run you have given the Danish citizen credence, which is actually all that matters. My opinion, or anyone from another country certainly has the right to express their views but you have the inside track on what the citizens of Denmark feel and want. That is the only opinion that matters in this case. If the Danish government doesn't want change, so be it. Don't live there if it upsets you. Period.

I also believe that if the courtesy "title" of KING CONSORT with absolutely no real power was given to Prince Henrik on day one, we would still be having this problem because he would still not be equal to his QUEEN wife who can only have the true power as MONARCH. He would still be whining and refusing to be buried next to his wife as his sons would come before him if his wife dies with true title of king and power. I truly believe that is a big part of his problem. His sons outrank him in position in Denmark and he can't understand or condone that fact. Shame but that is life.

In a way I feel sorry for the man but do believe he needs help. I am sure that if he keeps on this way, the Danish government could step in somehow and insist something be done. My heart goes out to the Queen and their sons. Not easy for them.

 

[Nordic]

I also believe that if the courtesy "title" of KING CONSORT with absolutely no real power was given to Prince Henrik on day one, we would still be having this problem because he would still not be equal to his QUEEN wife who can only have the true power as MONARCH. He would still be whining and refusing to be buried next to his wife as his sons would come before him if his wife dies with true title of king and power. I truly believe that is a big part of his problem. His sons outrank him in position in Denmark and he can't understand or condone that fact. Shame but that is life.

Sons? Does/Will Prince Joachim also outrank him?

 

[duchessrachel]

I don't generally follow this royal family, but I have become somewhat familiar with them in recent years of following Royal Forums and blogs about royalty. But when I saw this headline yesterday, I nearly fell over. On a side note, could someone please tell me how to go about learning about this royal family. I know all about the British Royal Family but hardly anything about this one? Are there any books?

It is no secret that the Prince for many years has been unhappy with his role and the title has been given in the Danish monarchy.
That dissatisfaction has in later years taken up more and more room. For the Prince the decision not to be interred next to the Queen is a natural consequence of him not being treated as an equal in relation to his spouse - by not getting the title and functions, which he has wished for.

Did he not know this is how it would be before he married the future queen?!?!? Prince Philip had some personal issues about his situation in being married to Queen Elizabeth referring to the last name of the children, but he seemed to overcome it.

 

[Dee Anna]

Sons? Does/Will Prince Joachim also outrank him?

I'm no expert but would have thought yes. Being a blood royal son of the Queen would out rank her commoner (for want of a better word) husband?

 

[MidwestMom]

I don't generally follow this royal family, but I have become somewhat familiar with them in recent years of following Royal Forums and blogs about royalty. But when I saw this headline yesterday, I nearly fell over. On a side note, could someone please tell me how to go about learning about this royal family. I know all about the British Royal Family but hardly anything about this one? Are there any books?

If you go to 'Map of the Danish Royals' in the topic listing, you'll find the 'Royal Library sub-forum' where several books are listed. However, according to what I have read here, the one by Trine Villeman should be taken with a grain of salt. Amazon has both the Kindle and hardcover version, but the hardcover is very expensive. Actually, I have learned most of what I know about the DRF (and Danes in general) from the posts on this forum. So take some time and scroll through the various topics and discussions, and you'll get lots of information. Happy reading!

 

[LadyRohan]

Will QMII abdicate? IMO that is now a definite possibility.
If PH continues to make a spectacle of himself and/or he wants to be buried in France, QMII who has a very sense of duty, may feel that she and her husband is now such a big liability for the DRF. In other words this issue overshadows the work the DRF is doing or is getting too embarrassing for the DRF, then I think she might very well decide to step back. To start a new chapter.
When she's no longer the Monarch, then PH's continual rants about being equal is irrelevant as well. PH cannot be equal to his son, the king.
That may very well happen around Frederiks' 50th birthday. And I think that option has been at least considered.
Right now I'll estimate these probability at around 40 %, if PH want's to be buried in France that goes up to 50 or 60 %. If he continues to babble away about how unfairly he has been treated and bou hou, we go up 70 % probability for QMII abdicating.

This is the only part of your reasoning I do not agree with. I think that the only likely outcome of this all, if Prince Henrik keeps going on this tantrum train, is that the Queen will ask him for a formal divorce.
There is no, no way that Her Majesty will abdicate to accommodate a very publicly selfish husband who has withdrawn from the monarchy in every practical sense, her sense of duty and allegiance is far too strong for that. Added to that, the standing of the monarchy in Denmark is strong, and is only strengthening through this process, with an enormous wave of sympathy for the Queen.
I think, as unheard of as it is for a reigning couple to formally divorce, the Queen will either separate or go all the way of a divorce to make clear her commitment to the Danish realm, her heritage and role, before in any way spending her last years as a 'farmers wife' in a chateau in France, with a husband who in practice, forced her into an abdication she has spoken against her entire life.
If P.H becomes more of a liability to her, her family and the institution she has been raised and bred to protect and carry forward, she will rather cut ties to him and be lauded for it in Denmark, than be dragged down by it.

That's the problem people who become to self-righteous don't realize: They're not indispensible. Even though I am partially sympathetic to the notion P.H has raised for a long time with the disparity of consorts of Kings becoming Queens, while consorts of Queens not becoming Kings, this is a process of maturation. I'm quite certain that some day this will be settled in a better way, either through King-Consort becoming a standard male title, or by demoting Queen-Consorts to Princess-Consorts, thereby protecting the sovereign as the only majesty there is in every royal family.
However, I agree with those who have mentioned the issue of equality completely: I have never seen P.H fight for equality rights in any area of society, other than his own, dynastic place.

To be so obviously sullen is devastating to an institution that so heavily relies on public approval. Despite being French and not having had a monarchy on his home turf during his upbringing, he simply should had known better by the time he married the heir to a European throne, and after 50 years of living as the consort of a Crown Princess and a Queen, there is no excuse for his behaviour anymore.

Disgraceful, and undignified. That's all it is at this stage.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In the close future we will see princes as consort in Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium and Spain. In due time we will see the spouses of Prince George and Prince Christian as the only consorts who share the husband's rank (as it is now, Luxembourg will probablh again have a Prince as consort again as Amalia de Nassau is the closest heir in the age group of George and Christian). Then the anomaly will only become more visible.

Solution: all consorts, male or female, are created a Prince (Princess) in their own right (like Albert von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, like Heinrich von Mecklenburg-Schwerin, like Pierre de Polignac, like Félix de Bourbon de Parme, like Bernhard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld, like Henri de Laborde de Montpezat, like Claus von Amsberg and like Daniel Westling).

All these gentlemen were/are/will be Prince next to the female Sovereign. Okay, treat ladies equal: all of them will be Princess next to the male Sovereign.

HM The King of Norway
HRH The Princess Mette Marit of Norway

HM The Queen of Sweden
HRH The Prince Daniel of Sweden

HM The King of Morocco
HRH The Princess Lalla Salma of Morocco

HRH The Grand-Duke of Luxembourg
HRH The Princess Stéphanie of Luxembourg

Clear and his honours the unique position of the bearer of the Crown. This arrangement makes monarchies more future proof, with the eye on the flood of female sovereigns coming.

 

[wyevale]

The problem with your 'plan' Duc_et_Pair is that it allows for no distinction between the wife of the Sovereign and assorted other Princesses MUCH 'further down the pecking line'...

 

[Muhler]

Another must read.

TV2's very experience royal reporter Lally Hoffmann has spoken to PH today, off camera, and she is here trying to convey what is on PH's mind.

Being as unbiased as possible it seems to me that it's difficult for her to put words to what he has told her, so this is not easy to translate. So if anyone feel my translation is off the mark or feel I have left something significant out, please say so, because this is pretty significant.

---------------

PH is sorry about the debate, but he stands by his views.

PH is taking stock of his life now.
"What he is saying with the message is that what is important/on the table now, is my life - my family life. My relationship to the family and not least to the Queen".

Lally Hoffmann (LH) believes there is a good deal of self-criticism (She really means self-reflection IMO) in these statements.
"It's after all not about him not getting this or that and - no one understood me. - It's also the fact that he hasn't lived up to that. That is, in other words he would like to have the remaining years for himself and do what he think is important.

PH has got a good deal of criticism over the years and according to LH this is something that got under his skin/hurt him to some extent.
"He has joked him way through quite a lot, but he is after all also a sensitive person. Also, there is also a self-criticism. Now he has gone all the way in the sense that he does not want to be buried in Roskilde Cathedral, because it again in a way represent the monarchy and not him as a man".

Some believe this damages the monarchy, but that has not been considered by PH when he made his statements.
"He looks at it as something purely private and in that context we must not forget that the family - and not least the Queen - they accept/are in acceptance with his wishes. It think it's a serious self-reflection, more than anything else and unfortunately one has to say that the Prince has not been aware of how much this also affects the DRF/ make people question the DRF/consider the DRF".

Lally HOffmann in the video leaves the impression that PH has not understood the public reaction.

----------------

This is based on the TV2 news on TV at 19.00.

Lally Hoffmann explains that it was off camera because the court said so.
PH emphasize that he loves his wife and that his issue is not with QMII as his wife.
Any suggestion that he is de facto equal to QMII is dismissed by PH. According to his logic "with which he has painted himself firmly in the corner" him not being king, means that he is not equal to QMII and as such is not really a part of the DRF.

-----

I sure have an opinion about this! But in order to leave this post as unbiased as possible, I'll wait about saying what I think.

ADDED: As I see it: PH is reflecting on his life and position in life, also in regards to the DRF. And doing so without having considered the public reaction or the consequences of his statements. It has not even been on his mind.

Sons? Does/Will Prince Joachim also outrank him?

Yes and no.

Should QMII die first, Frederik will become king and outrank everybody else, Mary will as queen also outrank both PH and Joachim.
In state matters and constitutional matters Joachim will normally outrank PH, but there is actually nothing to hinder Frederik from appointing his dad Rigsforstander, instead of Joachim, when he is abroad.
In formal settings, i.e. when the DRF receive official guests the order will be: Frederik, Mary, PH, an adult Christian, Joachim, Marie, Nikolai, Benedikte.

 

[Blog Real]

He says he can not go to Roskilde Cathedral because he does not have the title of King, is that it?
We all know the reasons. I think this has tarnished the image of the monarchy a bit, but people should realize that the Queen and the other members of the Royal Family are not to blame for this controversy.
In Denmark is the possibility of the Queen abdicating?