Precedence - Who Outranks Who?

[Durham]

At the fuenral of Grand Duke Jean on May the different members of the royal houses came in order after the lenght of the reign with the longest reigning last. And bgefore it was also divided first the junior members, the the heirs and the the Head of 'States. And among these first Monaco and Liechtenstein who are HSH and the the royal Houses.

It would appear that those of princely rank are treated differently. I presume this has to do with the history of especially the German speaking lands where there were so many different types of rulers. I wonder are the mediatized houses ranked differently.

Unfortunately I do not read German (a little French) but I wonder if there are sources on this.

 

[Stefan]

It would appear that those of princely rank are treated differently. I presume this has to do with the history of especially the German speaking lands where there were so many different types of rulers. I wonder are the mediatized houses ranked differently.

No Idea about mediatized Houses as when they attend an Event in an reigning House like the fuenral of GD Jean the usually come in busses together with the members of former reigning Houses.
At one Wedding don't rembemer whoch one but i think it was the one of CP Haakon the members of the reigning houses where sorted in fist arrived Monaco as Princely House, the Luxembourg as Grand Ducal House and then the royal Houses.

 

[Durham]

No Idea about mediatized Houses as when they attend an Event in an reigning House like the fuenral of GD Jean the usually come in busses together with the members of former reigning Houses.
At one Wedding don't rembemer whoch one but i think it was the one of CP Haakon the members of the reigning houses where sorted in fist arrived Monaco as Princely House, the Luxembourg as Grand Ducal House and then the royal Houses.

Thank you that's very interesting.

If you look at the wedding procession in St Paul's Cathedral from 1981 guests from foreign houses progress as they did at the Norwegian wedding with the princely houses first etc.

However by the time we come to the 2012 monarchs lunch at Windsor Castle monarchs (whatever their title) are seated very clearly by length of reign. So for example the Prince of Liechtenstein is on the front row ahead of the kings of Lesotho, Jordan, Norway, Malaysia, Bahrain & the Belgians on the second row. Likewise the Prince of Monaco, the Emir of Qatar & the Grand Duke of Luxembourg are ahead of the King of Tonga who is on the third row.

Interestingly, Tonga is a kingdom despite being smaller in area & population than the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg. In addition, Qatar is an emirate (principality) but it is larger & more populous than Bahrain which is a kingdom.

 

[Stefan]

Thank you that's very interesting.

If you look at the wedding procession in St Paul's Cathedral from 1981 guests from foreign houses progress as they did at the Norwegian wedding with the princely houses first etc.

But as far as i rember only with the european Houses not the one from Asia etc. At the Wedding in 23011 the entrane and arrival of the guersts was quiet messy and then not too much was shown on TV. Here on german TV they preferred to show the car with Mrs middleton (they did not even know she was in it).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

If you look at the diamond jubilee celebrations of the late King Bhumibol of Thailand foreign monarchs are placed according to the length of their reigns.

For instance the Sultan of Brunei & the King of Sweden are seated in the places of highest honour near/next to the late king. Next come the King of Swaziland & the Emperor of Japan & so on.

As an aside it is interesting that we in the west don't translate the word sultan but do translate the word tenno. I wonder why that is.

Thanks. I wonder whether this order of precedence finds its roots in the European or non-European monarchies (probably the former as European monarchies appear to have more sway over non-European monarchies than the other way around).

 

[maria-olivia]

For the Former Enthronement (Pictures of the Royal Watcher) King Baudouin and Queen Fabiola outhrank the other Monarchs because He was King since 1951.

 

[theroyalfly]

Thanks. I wonder whether this order of precedence finds its roots in the European or non-European monarchies (probably the former as European monarchies appear to have more sway over non-European monarchies than the other way around).

Who knows but it's a different case in Asia. Oriental Monarchy has different set of rules depending on the place of origin and is more rigid. It's also more complex in terms of titles and styles and rules of court, curtsies and such, posthumous names and titles. Even with birth name's--- it's well thought of.

For the Former Enthronement (Pictures of the Royal Watcher) King Baudouin and Queen Fabiola outhrank the other Monarchs because He was King since 1951.

Indeed, Maria-Olivia. Let's see if it's still going to be the case in this year's enthronement ceremony.

 

[Durham]

Thanks. I wonder whether this order of precedence finds its roots in the European or non-European monarchies (probably the former as European monarchies appear to have more sway over non-European monarchies than the other way around).

An interesting question Tatiana Maria. I'm not at all sure.

I take your point about European vs non-European.

 

[Durham]

But as far as i rember only with the european Houses not the one from Asia etc. At the Wedding in 23011 the entrane and arrival of the guersts was quiet messy and then not too much was shown on TV. Here on german TV they preferred to show the car with Mrs middleton (they did not even know she was in it).

Ah yes you're right about that from 1981.

It is a shame about 2011 especially since we are not likely to see another royal wedding in London at either at the abbey or St Paul's for another generation. The BBC really should know better!

 

[maria-olivia]

The Senior Monarchs are sending their Heirs.(UK, Sweden and Norway)
The Junior Monarchs will attend . King Willem Alexander will be the first ? or Prince Albert de Monaco ??

 

[Tarlita]

I remember the 2011 commentators say that the majority of royals arrived at the Abbey from the side entry so we didn't get to see many of them arrive.

I also remember the King of Bhutan Jigme Wangchuk and his new bride Queen Jetsun visit the Uk and meeting Charles and Camilla. As the Bhutanese outranked the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall it was amusing to see them bow and curtsy to the 21 year old Queen Jetsun.

 

[Durham]

I remember the 2011 commentators say that the majority of royals arrived at the Abbey from the side entry so we didn't get to see many of them arrive.

I also remember the King of Bhutan Jigme Wangchuk and his new bride Queen Jetsun visit the Uk and meeting Charles and Camilla. As the Bhutanese outranked the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall it was amusing to see them bow and curtsy to the 21 year old Queen Jetsun.

So funny to see

I think Queen Jetsun must take first prize for the coolest name of any royal. She is also stunningly beautiful & her little one is just too cute.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In general, having seen so many royal gatherings: the royals themselves seem pretty laissez-faire laissez-passer about precedence. The times that a diplomatic row broke out because someone forgot to bow is way behind us.

 

[Stefan]

I remember the 2011 commentators say that the majority of royals arrived at the Abbey from the side entry so we didn't get to see many of them arrive.

Actually the mayor Royals like the King and Queen of Norway, the Queen of Denmark, the the Prince of Orange and Princess Maxima etc. arrived at the main-entrance but at the same time Mrs. Middleton was leavin her Hotel and driven to the Abbey and the BBC preferred to show this on TV instead of the Royals.

 

[theroyalfly]

I wonder in royal gatherings like funeral, birthday and such, for countries like Spain and The Netherlands that doesn't recognize deposed royal families, do these families get the order of precedence based on their traditional titles, rank and style?


I remember during the funeral of King Michael I of Romania, all royals from current royal houses are seated in front except Queen Anne-Marie of Greece. It is also notable that Princess Muna, Prince Charles, Princess Astrid and Prince Lorenz are the only members of the current royal houses that are not monarchs in first row.

However, Karl von Habsburg who's traditionally an HI&RH was seated on the second row beside HRH Duarto Pio de Bragança and HRH Prince Leka of Albania. His younger brother Georg von Habsburg was also seated in the 3rd row.


**Pic 1** **Pic 2**

 

[JR76]

I remember during the funeral of King Michael I of Romania, all royals from current royal houses are seated in front except Queen Anne-Marie of Greece. It is also notable that Princess Muna, Prince Charles, Princess Astrid and Prince Lorenz are the only members of the current royal houses that are not monarchs in first row.

My take is that they're all seated in the front row because they were there representing a reigning monarch while Queen Anne-Marie was accorded the same precedence as the wife of a former king. In general the Romanian Court, as most courts of Europe, seem to give precedence for members of reigning royal families over members of non-reigning royal families.
King Simeon and King Constantine are given the precedence of Kings, but this is not something to be expected for their heirs once they pass away.

 

[Stefan]

King Simeon and King Constantine are given the precedence of Kings, but this is not something to be expected for their heirs once they pass away.

At the Wedding in Luxemboug in 2012 King simeond and Queen margarita arrived before the reigning monarchs

 

[JR76]

At the Wedding in Luxemboug in 2012 King simeond and Queen margarita arrived before the reigning monarchs

Did they arrive mixed with other non-reigning royals or after them?

 

[Stefan]

Did they arrive mixed with other non-reigning royals or after them?

As far as i remember they arrived just before the reiignng monarchs. Even after the Heirs who arrived all together in a Mini-Bus.

 

[tommy100]

I guess that would make sense, maybe looking like this:

-Reining Monarchs
-Recently abdicated Monarchs (Former King & Queens of Spain, Belgium, Netherlands)
-Former Monarchs who once ruled in countries no longer having a monarchy
-Heirs of monarchies

 

[JR76]

As far as i remember they arrived just before the reiignng monarchs. Even after the Heirs who arrived all together in a Mini-Bus.

Meaning that they're still before the rest of the dethroned and mediatised "rabble". It would be interesting to see where Crown Princess Margareta would be placed now that King Michael has passed away. In my mind it would be natural for her to come after King Simeon and King Constantine together with Crown Prince Alexander and the Prince of Naples if they'd ever attend a royal celebration together.

 

[Stefan]

Meaning that they're still before the rest of the dethroned and mediatised "rabble". It would be interesting to see where Crown Princess Margareta would be placed now that King Michael has passed away. In my mind it would be natural for her to come after King Simeon and King Constantine together with Crown Prince Alexander and the Prince of Naples if they'd ever attend a royal celebration together.

At the funeral of Grand Duke jean she arrived in a Mini Bus togeteher wiith Queen Anne-Marie with Prince Nikolas and the Duke of Braganza. Don't rember who all was in it.

 

[Minister of Court]

Meaning that they're still before the rest of the dethroned and mediatised "rabble". It would be interesting to see where Crown Princess Margareta would be placed now that King Michael has passed away. In my mind it would be natural for her to come after King Simeon and King Constantine together with Crown Prince Alexander and the Prince of Naples if they'd ever attend a royal celebration together.

At the funeral of GD Jean, Margareta and Radu were seated way back, behind all the members of reigning royal families, former heads of state, Queen Anne-Marie and Crown Prince Pavlos and even the Countess of Mountbatten and Lady Elizabeth Sharkley who are not royalty in the strictest sense.

 

[tommy100]

I would imagine that Margareta would simply be the same as any other head of house of a former monarchy. The more senior positions afforded the ex King of Greece, Bulgaria and formerly her father, as they were once all Kings before they lost their thrones.

 

[theroyalfly]

Yes, after all Margareta as the Custodian of the Romanian Crown is using the style Her Majesty. It makes me wonder will the Crown Prince of Greece and the Prince of Turnovo have the same fate as her.

It also makes me curious that after the deposition of the thrones of Italy and Yugoslavia how come the heirs of King Umberto II and King Alexander I of Yugoslavia, Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples and Crown Prince Alexander are not using HM as a style. And also Otto von Habsburg who was the heir of Karl I of Austria did not take the style His Imperial and Royal Apostolic Majesty.

Is Margareta a special case?

 

[Stefan]

Yes, after all Margareta as the Custodian of the Romanian Crown is using the style Her Majesty. It makes me wonder will the Crown Prince of Greece and the Prince of Turnovo have the same fate as her.

It also makes me curious that after the deposition of the thrones of Italy and Yugoslavia how come the heirs of King Umberto II and King Alexander I of Yugoslavia, Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples and Crown Prince Alexander are not using HM as a style. And also Otto von Habsburg who was the heir of Karl I of Austria did not take the style His Imperial and Royal Apostolic Majesty.

Is Margareta a special case?

It is only Margarita who used this because this was said in the new succession law which King Michael where he made her his heir.
Another case was the father of Prince Leka of Albania who was proclaimed King in exile after the death of his father and therfore used ths style of HM King Leka. But that is an exception.

 

[Durham]

Yes, after all Margareta as the Custodian of the Romanian Crown is using the style Her Majesty. It makes me wonder will the Crown Prince of Greece and the Prince of Turnovo have the same fate as her.

It also makes me curious that after the deposition of the thrones of Italy and Yugoslavia how come the heirs of King Umberto II and King Alexander I of Yugoslavia, Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples and Crown Prince Alexander are not using HM as a style. And also Otto von Habsburg who was the heir of Karl I of Austria did not take the style His Imperial and Royal Apostolic Majesty.

Is Margareta a special case?

Does the King of Spain ever use the style His Most Catholic Majesty awarded by Pope Alexander VI in 1493? Or indeed is he ever referred to formally as Rex Catholicissimus Most Catholic King?

 

[kathia_sophia]

I have a question. If one day Prince William meets with Princess Leonor of Spain or Princess Catharina-Amalia of the Netherlands, will he have to curtsey to the girls even though they're a lot younger than him? After all, both of them outrank him because their are crown princesses, while he is still the heir of the heir.

 

[Durham]

I have a question. If one day Prince William meets with Princess Leonor of Spain or Princess Catharina-Amalia of the Netherlands, will he have to curtsey to the girls even though they're a lot younger than him? After all, both of them outrank him because their are crown princesses, while he is still the heir of the heir.

I don't think royal highnesses bow/curtsy to each other only to majesties. Maybe crown princes/princesses are sometimes acknowledged differently by other royal highnesses in very formal situations.

On the other hand if you look really carefully when the newly married Prince & Princess of Wales began their procession out of St Paul's TRH The Duke & Duchess of Gloucester did bow/curtsy to them but none of the Kents did. Princess Alice Duchess of Gloucester also did not.

I'm sure William would do the gallant thing though & kiss their hand

 

[theroyalfly]

Not at all. They are all styled His/Her Royal Highness. Royals who have the style of His/Her Royal Highness will only have to bow/curtsey to royals of higher style like, His/Her Majesty and His/Her Imperial Majesty or to monarchs.